Agreed, and I tried repeatedly making that point to him, but to no avail - it seems clear enough to me. That's why I started thinking
that he's just purposefully trying to sabotage the doctrine of spiritual blindness to help his FW case.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Agreed, and I tried repeatedly making that point to him, but to no avail - it seems clear enough to me. That's why I started thinking
that he's just purposefully trying to sabotage the doctrine of spiritual blindness to help his FW case.
Many FWers believe that nonsense. There are FWers on this thread who believe that if God didn't politely and humbly ask Mary if it was okay for the Spirit to impregnate her, then she was RAPED by God!
NOT in the CONTEXT of 1Tim, it doesn't! Paul himself defines to Timothy what he means by "all men" in 1Tim 2:7! What part of this verse can't you understand? Why do you blatantly ignore context!? Paul didn't say that God sent him to preach the gospel to each and every person on the planet w/o exception.
So your saying God raises unbelievers from the dead? Interesting, don't recall that ever being the case in my Bible.
ps. except of course at the Great White Throne judgement but they all end up in the l.o.f. not raised to life.
Either that or he's left his Jewish beard grow that long it became infested with maggots an then he tripped up over it whilst doing the twist, and then he banged his head, causing him to see permanent stars flying round his head ,
It should also be noted, I have never said my free will can or will raise me from the dead and in fact have consistently stated my free will can do nothing except reveal I am a believer. Your making stuff up to suit your ideology again. It is the Lord God who raises believers to life.
I think part of the problem is you still haven't cottoned on to the fact that election has to do with choosing what to do with believers. As @Cameron143 always likes to point out "election is not selection". True, God selected believers out of all those who would be born based on His foreknowledge then He chose (elected) what to do with them. Just as he will separate the sheep from the goats at the end of time, He separated them before time began. The end that we see is the revelation of what God did at the beginning.
!!!!!!!! I paint the following picture:
As a result of seeking ultimate truth, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide an interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements.
First, God loves and wants to save everyone. Seven Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4, which might be deemed the “7 pearls”. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies: those who are ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, John 8:42-44).
Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (Psa. 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.”
Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice. The writer of Hebrews (Heb. 12:4-11) indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline for the purpose of teaching people to repent of their hatefulness and faithlessness (Pro. 3:12, Isa. 33:14-15 Rev. 3:19). If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage of Scripture purporting to describe God’s will (such as Joshua 6:17-24, 8:2&24 & 10:28-40, 11:6-23), then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what people perceived rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of God’s nature. Unrighteous rage should not be attributed to God.
The justice of God is a source of comfort and joy to those who have decided to accept His loving Lordship, but it is experienced as judgment or wrath by those who rebel against Him (Isa. 13:13, Rom. 1:18, Rev. 19:11). The fire that warms (purifies) also burns (punishes). Stating God’s requirement for salvation negatively: a person would do well (be wise) not to reject Him in order not to experience the miserable but just consequence (John 3:17-18). Just consequences teach good behavior.
Either that or he's left his Jewish beard grow that long it became infested with maggots an then he tripped up over it whilst doing the twist, and then he banged his head, causing him to see permanent stars flying round his head ,
Yeah, I know Jordon, the twist can be very dangerous at times, especially with a beard. I almost injured myself several times doing it, and I don't have a beard - but then again, I'm not a good dancer. And the maggots might make a difference too.
No, you are very mistaken. The concept of kinds with respect to grace is most certainly in scripture. When God sustains this world by his power with changes of seasons and causes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on both the wicked and righteous, and feeds the animals, etc. that is COMMON grace that is observed throughout the world. Everyone positively benefits from that universal grace that reveals God's general benevolence toward mankind. But saving grace is PARTICULAR by design because it's limited to the humble who have been elected by God in eternity.
Furthermore, this is another huge problem with your multi-measures theory, which isn't in scripture! Grace is God giving to man what he doesn't deserve. But in your multi-measure universal Grace theory, God would be giving the vast majority of the recipients, who are God-hating rejectors, exactly what they deserve -- eternal condemnation. And what's even more damaging and absurd to your theory is that God allegedly gifted that universal grace of his to people whom he knew in eternity would never accept it! So, why bother even giving it in the first place!?
You FWers are so disingenuous. In texts like Rom 8:28-30, for example, you guys would argue until the cows come home that God's foreknowledge is all about prescience -- that the passage speaks to God forseeing man's faith responses to his grace. You guys would be loathe to admit that God simply [fore]knew particular people in eternity. Yet, you totally and conveniently ignore God's so-called prescience in your universal, multi-measure grace theory. Since God acts positively toward those He foresaw would believe by grace, then how come He didn't foresee in eternity all those who would reject his grace in the first place? If I know for a fact that my next store neighbor hates fish, why would I leave him a string of freshly caught tarp on ice on his front porch? How would he benefit by my "gracious gift"?
No, you are very mistaken. The concept of kinds with respect to grace is most certainly in scripture. When God sustains this world by his power with changes of seasons and causes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on both the wicked and righteous, and feeds the animals, etc. that is COMMON grace that is observed throughout the world. Everyone positively benefits from that universal grace that reveals God's general benevolence toward mankind. But saving grace is PARTICULAR by design because it's limited to the humble who have been elected by God in eternity.
Furthermore, this is another huge problem with your multi-measures theory, which isn't in scripture! Grace is God giving to man what he doesn't deserve. But in your multi-measure universal Grace theory, God would be giving the vast majority of the recipients, who are God-hating rejectors, exactly what they deserve -- eternal condemnation. And what's even more damaging and absurd to your theory is that God allegedly gifted that universal grace of his to people whom he knew in eternity would never accept it! So, why bother even giving it in the first place!?
You FWers are so disingenuous. In texts like Rom 8:28-30, for example, you guys would argue until the cows come home that God's foreknowledge is all about prescience -- that the passage speaks to God forseeing man's faith responses to his grace. You guys would be loathe to admit that God simply [fore]knew particular people in eternity. Yet, you totally and conveniently ignore God's so-called prescience in your universal, multi-measure grace theory. Since God acts positively toward those He foresaw would believe by grace, then how come He didn't foresee in eternity all those who would reject his grace in the first place? If I know for a fact that my next store neighbor hates fish, why would I leave him a string of freshly caught tarp on ice on his front porch? How would he benefit by my "gracious gift"?
From 2 Timothy 1 verses 8b-9 Join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God. He has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
Paul's Letters were to many different people to help them. But Paul didn't know one day those Letters would be found and then placed into a Book called the New Testament. There's literally no proof that he thought that because he never wrote that he believed that.
Actually you know it doesn't mean that ever. No one in their sound mind would believe if means whether. Well the people riding the short bus would believe it but no one sane would.
Actually it is extremely strong and why the real good English speaking people are not contesting it because they know what it means unlike YOU do.
But what if the patient doesn't want the antidote for whatever reason; but the doctor knows that the shot would save him from the poison, so he calls a couple of orderlies to restrain the patient and forces him to take the shot against his wishes. And the doctor was right, for the patient improved the next day. In your world, the doctor would be evil for forcing his benevolent will upon the patient, right?
Good reply! Also, "if" has multiple meanings, such as "allowing that", "in the event that", etc.
No, you are very mistaken. The concept of kinds with respect to grace is most certainly in scripture. When God sustains this world by his power with changes of seasons and causes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on both the wicked and righteous, and feeds the animals, etc. that is COMMON grace that is observed throughout the world. Everyone positively benefits from that universal grace that reveals God's general benevolence toward mankind. But saving grace is PARTICULAR by design because it's limited to the humble who have been elected by God in eternity.
Furthermore, this is another huge problem with your multi-measures theory, which isn't in scripture! Grace is God giving to man what he doesn't deserve. But in your multi-measure universal Grace theory, God would be giving the vast majority of the recipients, who are God-hating rejectors, exactly what they deserve -- eternal condemnation. And what's even more damaging and absurd to your theory is that God allegedly gifted that universal grace of his to people whom he knew in eternity would never accept it! So, why bother even giving it in the first place!?
You FWers are so disingenuous. In texts like Rom 8:28-30, for example, you guys would argue until the cows come home that God's foreknowledge is all about prescience -- that the passage speaks to God forseeing man's faith responses to his grace. You guys would be loathe to admit that God simply [fore]knew particular people in eternity. Yet, you totally and conveniently ignore God's so-called prescience in your universal, multi-measure grace theory. Since God acts positively toward those He foresaw would believe by grace, then how come He didn't foresee in eternity all those who would reject his grace in the first place? If I know for a fact that my next store neighbor hates fish, why would I leave him a string of freshly caught tarp on ice on his front porch? How would he benefit by my "gracious gift"?
Show me where it says common grace and where it says saving grace and I will show you where it says grace and more grace.
Grace is far more than being kind. Grace is real power in action doing stuff we cannot even imagine yet the whole world is a recipient of grace whether they know it or not. As Paul quoted to the Athenians, "for in Him we live and move and have our being" Acts17:28 That is grace in action and that requires real power. For what does Paul say is the first thing we learn about God? That He is eternal power. Rom.1:20
Foreknowledge is God seeing Himself in relationship with certain people. Who does God relate to? Believers or unbelievers?
The Incarnation can explain why God did not see those who would reject Him at the time of creating in order to not show favourtism. All things being created through, for and by the Word and we see Jesus able to live without knowing things, means the Lord God could have restricted His own knowing at the time He created all men so as to not seem biased in His creating.
One of the reasons you might leave the fish there is to teach men how powerful hate can be in destroying relationships.
Even so, just because we do not fully understand why God allowed evil into this world knowing full well the damage that it would cause, does not mean we get determine His motives for doing what He does or doesn't do.