144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church
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Look. You just keep digging your ditch deeper, by inserting your personal doctrine into Scripture, where there is no doctrine of yours in the Scripture.
Where in Scripture is Uriah the Hittite ever listed with a natural tribe of Israel. Where in Scripture is there any member of a tribe of Israel, that is not referred to by that tribe, but only by a Gentile nation on earth?
Ruth the Moabitess was never named as a tribal member, though her offspring with Boaz of Judah, became members of the tribe of Judah.
Uriah was called a Hittite, and only a Hittite, because he was only a Hittite, not a member of any natural tribe of Israel.
This is become fun to watch, but seriously, there comes a point, where we should just admit a mistake. I mean, who among us has not made mistakes with the Bible? Even Peter was called out for a mistake in NT practice, and he repented to later acknowledge Paul as a brother and true writer of Scripture...
No, it isn't.
I already addressed that. There is no violence in any rapture involving God and his saints.
I'm a little confused by your post. Are you saying the Jews are saved because they are Jews, or are they saved because
they belong to the nation of Israel or is it by Christ. Maybe I've misunderstood you, but you seem to have stated all three
at various points. To me, they seem mutually exclusive of each other. Would you select and summarize the one that defines your belief regarding a single basis of salvation, and we can discuss from there?
I was responding to your post #235 statement "Quote: "so all Israel will be saved" represents spiritual Israel, not the earthly nation of Israel. All of spiritual Israel will/must become saved." end quote.
Scripture Study Tips by Myles Coverdale, bible theologian/translator. He wrote the Coverdale Bible
When dissecting any verse of scripture. Ask yourself, of whom, to whom, with what words, what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what is written before and what follows any single verse context.
So, ask: Who is writing? Who’s it written to? What are the circumstances? What’s the context BEFORE? What's the context after?
Ok,
Taking one verse out of context "so all Israel will be saved" & trying to build a doctrine will invariably lead to doctrinal misinterpretations.
Rom chapter 11 context """Israel Is Not Cast Away"""
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(MY NOTE: Where does "spiritual Israel" fit into this chapters foundational context = Physical Israel? BTW, I did a E-Sword search of "spiritual Israel" it returned ZERO results.
Rom 11 Context demands ethnic Israel. Paul never shifts to a "spiritual Israel". Whatever that you may claim that is.
The blindness is national. Paul cites a current remnant of Israelite believer, but the majority are hardened. This only makes sense if he's talking about the nation.
The promise is covenantal. God’s irrevocable calling of Israel (v.29) ties directly to the patriarchs, not to Gentile believers. If Israel here meant the Church, then God’s covenant promises to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob become emptied of meaning & Paul's whole argument collapses.
The Church is grafted into the Olive Tree/Israel, not a substitute for it. Believing Gentiles & Israelites will now share in Israel's blessings, but Israel remains distinct & destined for restoration.
Finally, I simply shared Rom 11 in context. I never opined (in any way) on how someone is saved.
I'll refer you to some scripture on that question:
1 Cor 15:1-4, Rom 10: 9-10, Eph 2:8-9. I hope this helps.
Romans 11 actually demands spiritual Israel, ie the believing remnant. Spiritual Israel is that part of natural Israel that is of faith and ruled by the spirit. It is the remainder after the portion that Paul describes as "they are not all [spiritual] Israel who are of [natural] Israel" are removed.
Would you mind first specifically answering whether you believe a Jew is saved because he is a Jew, or because he is of Israel,
or because of Jesus - your intent in that regard was not obvious to me - it should be easy to answer, that way it won't be open-ended, and we'll have a reference point. Just answer "Jew" or "Israel" or "Jesus", so I can know where you're coming from - we can focus the discussion relative to that rather than of tossing a lot of verses back and forth which aren't pertinent. Otherwise, we won't have a clear, logical basis for discussion.
By the way, spiritual Israel was used as a convenience. Look at "Israel of God' and/or church of God.
THE 144,000 are as described in the Bible. 12,000 innocents from each of the 12 tribes of israel... They are the remnant redeemed of the tribes of Israel..
The saints are mentioned in the same chapter::
(Revelation 7:8-14) "Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. {9} After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; {10} And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. {11} And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, {12} Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. {13} And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
The saints are mentioned in the same chapter::
(Revelation 7:8-14) "Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. {9} After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; {10} And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. {11} And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, {12} Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. {13} And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Scripture Study Tips by Myles Coverdale, bible theologian/translator. He wrote the Coverdale Bible
When dissecting any verse of scripture. Ask yourself, of whom, to whom, with what words, what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what is written before and what follows any single verse context.
So, ask: Who is writing? Who’s it written to? What are the circumstances? What’s the context BEFORE? What's the context after?
Rom 11 contest doesn't support a "Spiritual Israel" narrative. Just read verse 1 for a start
Rom chapter 11 context Israel/Physical Israel, is Not Cast Away.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(MY NOTE: Where does "spiritual Israel" fit into this chapters foundational context = Physical Israel? BTW, I did a E-Sword search of "spiritual Israel" it returned ZERO results.
Rom 11 Context demands ethnic Israel. Scripture never cites a "spiritual Israel". Whatever that you may claim that is.
The blindness extends nationally. Paul cites a current remnant of Israelite believers, but the majority are hardened.
The promise is covenantal. God’s irrevocable calling of Israel (v.29) ties directly to the patriarchs (mentioned in verse 1), not to Gentile believers. If Israel here meant the Church, then God’s covenant promises to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob become emptied of meaning & Paul's whole argument collapses.
Believing Gentiles & Israelites will now share in Israel's blessings, but Israel remains distinct & destined for restoration.
When Paul said God hasn't cast away his people he meant God hasn't cast away all of his people, and presents himself as living proof. But later in that chapter he states that God did indeed cast away the disobedient branches.
Spiritual Israel is Israel that walks according to the spirit rather than according to the flesh. Not all in natural Israel are spiritual Israel
God was faithful to his calling by establishing the new covenant with Israel, and that calling has not been revoked; they are still welcome to come and share in the inheritance promised to Christ.
When you admit Rom 11 context doesn't support a/some/any "spiritual Israel' narrative. BTW, found no place in the chapter 11 text, or any text.
I'll follow you down the latest, not discussion related rabbit hole & definitively answer your salvation question.
Paul refers to spiritual Israel as children of promise born according to the spirit
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born according to the flesh persecuted him that was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Galatians 4:28-29
That is Paul talking about his fellow Jews.
Paul called the Jews and considered himself kindred, brethren and one if them.
You selected carefully a verse, to try and make the Jewish regathering, that GOD'S WORD declares into a lie.
Rom 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
you were saying????
You guys ever investigate????
The brethren are made up of men, women, Jews, and Greeks.
But if we do your one dimensional transforming, there are no women or men in the body of christ.
" For There is neither male nor female,Jew nor Greek, but all are one in the body of Christ."
Gal 3:28
Romans 11:1 Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite
(MY NOTE
Your "not all" addition attempt to change scripture, is duly noted. Paul actually say's "God forbid". I am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. CONTEST PHYSICAL ISRAEL!)Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
(MY NOTE
God has not cast away Israel. The reply claims that ""God cast away the disobedient branches"". Broken branches are not the same as total rejection.)Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(MY NOTE
Context is "partial hardening", not total rejection. The reply implies permanent casting away.)Rom 11:17–20 And if some of the branches be broken of.
(MY NOTE
Paul says SOME branches were broken off, not the whole tree. Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in…”
(MY NOTE
Broken branches ARE NOT permanently discarded. Context contradicts the idea of permanent casting away.)Rom 11:25 blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(MY NOTE
The blindness is PARTIAL & TEMPORATY. The reply’s “spiritual Israel vs. natural Israel” misses actual contextual citing: Again Physical Israel is hardened for a time, but not forever.)Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved.
(MY NOTE
Context ALL, a promise of national restoration. Your reply's """they’re welcome to come"""/addition attempts to change scripture. The ACTUAL CONTEXT IS ""ALL"" of ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED)Romans 11:28–29 “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”
Finally,
Physical Israel remains beloved because of God's covenant with the patriarchs (vs 1). Your reply's focus on "spiritual Israel" (found no place in Rom 11 text) ignores > Paul's insistence that God's calling of physical Israel is irrevocable.
Wrong. I didn't turn God's Word into a lie; I just am able to comprehend what it is saying and apparently you can't.
So, therefore, the "some of them" means...... well....it means some of them, not all of them. And if not all, then your supposition of which Israel is in view is wrong. This is confirmed by the v5 which you selected, that it is only a remnant according to the election of grace
and was not according to election by lineage. And if the remnant was of election by grace, those afterwards who become saved must also be saved by the same election of grace and not election by lineage. There is only one Israel in scripture where ALL who comprise it will/must through grace be saved, and that is spiritual Israel, the Israel of God. Unless, that is, you're attempting to say that everyone who was/is ever of the nation of Israel must unconditionally become saved. If that is your contention, then the onus is on you to explain specifically what/who you mean by "Israel" because it is clear from scripture that many of biblical/national Israel would never become saved.