Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

No, it means He chose them specifically for salvation, by which, they become saved and believe. It is not by God's knowledge of what He knew they would do but by His choice of them.

[Rom 8:29-31 KJV]
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?

You flunked out again. Those passages have already thoroughly de-Calvinized.

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5631680

 

[rogerg]

So where does 1 Corinthians 12:3 fit in?

I think it means that those who call Jesus Lord (and are sincere about it) have been saved. Sorry, kind of tired, am I missing something?

[Rom 8:9, 14 KJV]
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. ...
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[cv5]

To them repentance is bequeathed, an action by God solely.

And the Bride is relegated to little more than a hapless clueless senseless meat puppet and victim of fraud and other forms of criminal misconduct.

 

[sawdust]

In your universe God's saving grace is exceedingly more effectual in producing negative responses since its results in more unbelievers than believers, which means God's love failed since a major aspect to his love is faithfulness. And since all the promises in scripture are YES in Christ (not yes and no!), then God utterly failed to deliver on his unilateral, unconditional New Covenant promises. Of course, this "little" theological problem also contradicts 1Cor 13:8 AND also Rom 13:10, for love does no wrong or harm to anyone. Yet, here you are boasting about all the harm "saving grace" has brought billions of people during this New Covenant Age, since the engine to God's grace is his love! So...you're faced with three contradictions.

Since you claim that God's grace was intentionally designed to produce both positive and negative results ("yes" and "no", respectively), then you should be able to find passages in scripture that support your dual design of grace theory. Show me from the Word where God's grace ever failed in his dealings with the sons of men -- where God's Word ever returned to him void.

P.S. A fourth problem you have with dual mission theory is why would God give saving grace to all the unbeliever who He knew in eternity would reject that grace in the first place? You make God out to be a village idiot.

Again, grace does more than save. Obviously not everyone receives saving grace (and I did explain that in the last post but the only grace you keep on seeing is saving grace). Grace is God's working policy in this world everything He does is by means of grace. It is His energy in working. The power that upholds the universe is grace in action.

As far as the negative responses? This is the very thing we have been trying to get through to you from the beginning. It is not grace that produces the negative outcome it is the unbeliever because he refuses to believe. Believing comes from us, it is our responsibility to believe. God does not cause us to believe, we believe because we desire what we see when God makes Himself known to us by grace and truth. Not everyone desires God. Yes, I know, unbelievable, who in their right mind would not love God if they knew the truth? Well, let's start with Lucifer shall we? (who by the way was very much spiritually alive and yet still did not believe)

Grace can be resisted.

Unbelievers are not in Christ so the "Yes" is not applicable to them. He is faithful to His word, not to our misconceptions of His word.

Christ died for our sin, not our salvation. Our salvation is in His Resurrection. There are atheists who believe Jesus died.

Did God not say you will die in your sins if you reject Christ? How then is His word returning void when whoever does not believe does not have eternal life?

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

 

[Cameron143]

That Calvinist straw man nonsense argument has been immolated many times.
Every man is in fact created with a spirit, in all cases, without exception.

[Job 32:8 KJV]
But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

[Pro 20:27 KJV]
The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

[Ecc 3:21 KJV]
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

[Zec 12:1 KJV]
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

No one has stated that man doesn't have a spirit. For that matter, a will or mind or heart. But there is both the natural and spiritual use of each. Ask your buddy @Genez. He'll explain the difference to you.

 

[Genez]

The natural man is in a lost condition, so the Gospel is hid to him or her

Was it hid to you before you got saved?

 

[cv5]

2 Corinthians 4:4

Spiritual blindness is the factor as to why some people can not grasp the gospel leading to spiritual darkness, as they are blinded by satan, there unable to accept the spiritual truths, a barrier that prevents belief or understanding.

Only if you believe that Satan has mastery over God Himself.

 

[Genez]

No one has stated that man doesn't have a spirit. For that matter, a will or mind or heart. But there is both the natural and spiritual use of each. Ask your buddy @Genez. He'll explain the difference to you.

You did not understand what Cv5 was saying. Leave me out of it.

 

[Cameron143]

You did not understand what Cv5 was saying. Leave me out of it.

I understand his point. What I don't understand is why someone who believes in prevenient grace doesn't correct those who believe in freewill.

 

[Genez]

This is a typical rant conceived only by those who misrepresent others.

2 things:
...total depravity doesn't mean that an individual has nothing redeemable in them. It simply means every facet of man was affected in the fall.
...the image of God in man was marred and corrupted in the fall, but remains redeemable. No one believes the mass of unregenerate humanity is garbage, let alone 100% garbage.

That is not total depravity, then!

Change your wording.

 

[rogerg]

yes you can, or do you think grace is ineffectual and God can't make blind men see the truth He presents so they may believe?

No, you can't. God first makes the spiritually dead spiritually alive and along with that gives them spiritual sight, spiritual hearing, and a renewed mind, and writes His spiritual laws into their hearts.

Yes, it is a privilege to believe in Christ. It cost Him everything to destroy the sin barrier and conquer death. Just as it is a privilege to suffer for Him. We don't have some sort of right to salvation even though it was due to Adam's sin that put us in this predicament. We are still responsible for our own personal sins and being given the opportunity to believe in Him unto salvation is something to be treasured.

That verse is not saying what you think it is saying. God does not cause us to believe. He puts that responsibility squarely on our shoulders. We believe, God saves. We don't believe. God leaves us in our sin and consequent death.

Completely disagree. Were you correct, it would make man his own savior - you would replace Christ as Savior with man. When/if you come to realize what the role of the Savior is, come back and we can discuss further then. It's amazing that being a Christian,
you don't recognize Christ as THE Savior.

 

[cv5]

The use of the story of Lazarus to illustrate regeneration precedes faith really just demonstrates a disregard for the narrative of Scripture by Reformed Doctrine!

Lazarus was a friend of Jesus.
He believed in Jesus.
He died physically.
Jesus raised Him physically.
Lazarus was not a God-hater who was given a new heart to believe.
He was a God-lover given a raised body.

Oh but the non-reformed use eisgesis, lol

"The use of the story of Lazarus to illustrate regeneration precedes faith really just demonstrates....."

The desperate bewildered flailing of a dogma drowning in its own discordant conflicted irrationality IMO.

 

[Cameron143]

I think it means that those who call Jesus Lord (and are sincere about it) have been saved. Sorry, kind of tired, am I missing something?

[Rom 8:9, 14 KJV]
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. ...
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

It certainly means they are saved, but it means more than that. It also means God had a part in their confession.

Matthew 7:21-23 has individuals who called Jesus Lord. They, in fact, make much of their profession, calling Him...Lord, Lord. Yet, they remain outside the kingdom of God.

 

[Jordon]

Only if you believe that Satan has mastery over God Himself.

err I spoke on this yesterday, those who are spiritualy blind to the Gospel are these people.


Matthew 6
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Which goes with 2 Corinthians 4:4

Why the reason, the gospel is hidden from them, ie, the gospel is not just a written text it's the power to save because the power is the light, the word that became flesh, that's the Gospel, the gospel is the spoken word of Christ, and he is the light,

The gospel is the light and its the light of the gospel that is hidden from these people, there deeds have been seen in the light

 

[Cameron143]

That is not total depravity, then!

Change your wording.

Yes it is. Total refers to the entirety of man, and not the entirety of the depravity.

No need to change the wording. These were the words used by those who gave us the terms, and explained their understanding. It is others, like yourself, who have come along and redefined the terms.

 

[Genez]

I understand his point. What I don't understand is why someone who believes in prevenient grace doesn't correct those who believe in freewill.

Prevenient grace sets the will free by controlling the flesh of the one that God is working on.

The flesh naturally holds the soul prisoner to do it's will... for either good, or for evil.

It is with one's soul that one believes while under the influence of prevenient grace.

 

[cv5]

Were you correct, it would make man his own savior - you would replace Christ as Savior with man.

Standardized Calvinist fallacy, utterly annihilated effortlessly as you plainly see here.
And BTW, the saved do surely understand the dynamics of this scenario, and where they stand in relation to it.
Evidently you flunked out of Passover 101, as do the rest of the Calvinists around here.

[Exo 12:3 KJV]
Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house:

[Exo 12:7 KJV]
And they shall take of the blood, and strike [it] on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

[Exo 12:8 KJV]
And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; [and] with bitter [herbs] they shall eat it.

[Exo 12:11 KJV]
And thus shall ye eat it; [with] your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it [is] the LORD'S passover.

[Exo 12:12 KJV]
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I [am] the LORD.

[Exo 12:13 KJV]
And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye [are]: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy [you], when I smite the land of Egypt.

 

[Genez]

Yes it is. Total refers to the entirety of man, and not the entirety of the depravity.

No need to change the wording. These were the words used by those who gave us the terms, and explained their understanding. It is others, like yourself, who have come along and redefined the terms.

OK. you got to maintain having something to argue over that can not be resolved as long as you wish to be closed minded.
It is your "security blanket" to keep grace willers at a distance.

It is not.... "free willers."

It is........."grace willers!"



In Christ.... GeneZ

 

[Cameron143]

Prevenient grace sets the will free by controlling the flesh of the one that God is working on.

The flesh naturally holds the soul prisoner to do it's will... for either good, or for evil.

It is with one's soul that one believes while under the influence of prevenient grace.

Don't tell me. Tell @cv5. He doesn't believe God needs to do anything for the natural man to believe.

 

[Cameron143]

OK. you got to maintain having something to argue over that can not be resolved as long as you wish to be closed minded.
It is your "security blanket" to keep grace willers at a distance.

It is not.... "free willers."

It is........."grace willers!"



In Christ.... GeneZ

You believe grace willer. Others believe free willer. You are the one who doesn't understand @cv5.