Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

You ask the questions the hard way haha. Yes I believe repentance is part of salvation. Without fruits there is no repentance. And the fruits bareth witnesses. I believe if you do not repent you just put your car in the ditch on your journey. And you aint never getting your car out of that ditch till you repent. Does that mean you are stuck somewhere in salvation limbo. I dont know i.cant say.

I am also aware of the line of reasoning that one is not saved by his mouths confession but rather the mouth testifies readily that which has been recieved by faith. Which is from the grace of God.

I do believe when someone comes to be saved that they will repent, but I believe it will be in response to the activity of God, and not the cause of God's activity.

The reason I went to Romans 10:9 is because it states that when an individual confesses the Lord Jesus, they will be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:3 states that no one calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit. This is why I believe that God must already be working in an individual before they are saved. If one must confess the Lord Jesus, and that can only come about by the action of the Spirit, it stands to reason that the Spirit is already at work.

 

[Jackson129]

My question to you Cameron143 is this. Out of the words regeneration salvation believing santification repenting ect ect. What things do you put in a continuous journey and what parts do you put in the instantaneous category. Like checkpoints along a line

 

[Jordon]

Obviously this opens a whole can of worms. Are you saying babies that die in the womb go to to hell if he hasent choose them?

again Gods devine nature is out of your grasp here.

You can't keep using hypotheticals to determine Gods word.

 

[Jackson129]

I do believe when someone comes to be saved that they will repent, but I believe it will be in response to the activity of God, and not the cause of God's activity.

The reason I went to Romans 10:9 is because it states that when an individual confesses the Lord Jesus, they will be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:3 states that no one calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit. This is why I believe that God must already be working in an individual before they are saved. If one must confess the Lord Jesus, and that can only come about by the action of the Spirit, it stands to reason that the Spirit is already at work.

Does not one have to understand the same thing in order to reject it as the do to accept it?

 

[Kroogz]

I do believe when someone comes to be saved that they will repent, but I believe it will be in response to the activity of God, and not the cause of God's activity.

I am @Cameron143!!!!!!!! Sharing information that no natural man can understand.

 

[Cameron143]

My question to you Cameron143 is this. Out of the words regeneration salvation believing santification repenting ect ect. What things do you put in a continuous journey and what parts do you put in the instantaneous category. Like checkpoints along a line

Regeneration, believing and salvation, repentance, sanctification.

 

[Rufus]

If God foreknows who will believe?

Does that mean He makes them believe?

Yup, God comes along with a great big sledge hammer and cracks legs, feet, knees, arms...whatever to force his will on everyone. Just ask anyone of the Reformed Faith how we suffered greatly under our benevolent "tryant's" hands because we initially refused to accept the invite into the banquet. So...we became like the two groups in Lk14 Parable of the Banquet whom Master FORCED into the banquet. Kool, huh?

P.S. Lk 14 comes after chapter 13 and before chapter 15 in case you're wondering.

 

[brightfame52]

You just woke up one day and were like that's weird I suddenly belive in God?

No thats not what happened. So is this thread about me now ?

 

[Cameron143]

Does not one have to understand the same thing in order to reject it as the do to accept it?

Understanding how? Spiritually? Naturally?

If I tell 2 adults the gospel, both will understand the concepts I share. Their responses to what I share is what will vary. The one who is spiritual will receive the good news and believe and respond in obedience. The one who is natural will reject it as foolishness and continue as he is.

How do you reconcile Romans 10:9 with 1 Corinthians 12:3? If one confesses Christ in believing, and one can only call Jesus Lord by the Holy Spirit, doesn't the Spirit need to be active in one's salvation?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I will have a nice day, ty

hope/pray you have a very nice day today as well ...

But I really can't see why you can't see the picture here, genez paints the picture as sin not being evil and kroogz paints the picture as giving to the poor as evil

Excuse me but am I back to front or something ?

Theres something not right there with both their comments,

Here's my take ...

@Genez made a distinction between the sinner who continues his or her "evil" and the sinner who does not.

Genez said:​

Two people can be equally sinners.
One sinner will be evil towards God.
The other sinner will seek God, and not be evil.​

Both are sinners ...

the "evil" sinner does not repent when the Holy Spirit reproves him or her ...

the "not evil" sinner does repent when the Holy Spirit reproves him or her.

Please clarify if I have misconstrued, Genez.


@Kroogz pointed out that one's good works do nothing in the human effort to "earn" salvation ...

Kroogz said: - Post 29,476​

All sin is evil. But not all evil is sin.​

​

Giving to the poor through the Spirit is divine Good. Giving to the poor through your Flesh....is evil/human good/ human deeds/human works.​

​

It is not a sin for unbelievers to give to the poor......But it is evil/human good/human deeds/human works.​

Kroogz made a distinction between good works of the believer as opposed to the goods works of the natural man ...

the born again believer ... created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10) ...

the good works done by natural man in order to gain favor with God ... all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf (Isa 64:6).

Please clarify if I have misconstrued, Kroogz.

And you still find reason to disagree, and rule out kroogz was not being sarcastic and rule out magenta was not making them see there own ignorance,

Absolutely incredible

Please provide the post submitted by Magenta wherein she was "making them see there own ignorance". I did not see Magenta's post.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

rogerg said:

Did you notice what she unashamedly and overtly did changing my post?​

To which post do you refer?

hah!!! ... that's rich coming from you

30394

nice of you to actually provide the post number as Magenta requested ... now if Magenta could provide the post wherein she claims a "FWer" said "mothers loving and caring for their children" is "evil."

.

 

[Kroogz]

hope/pray you have a very nice day today as well ...





Here's my take ...

@Genez made a distinction between the sinner who continues his or her "evil" and the sinner who does not.

Genez said:​

Two people can be equally sinners.​

One sinner will be evil towards God.​

The other sinner will seek God, and not be evil.​

Both are sinners ...

the "evil" sinner does not repent when the Holy Spirit reproves him or her ...

the "not evil" sinner does repent when the Holy Spirit reproves him or her.

Please clarify if I have misconstrued, Genez.


@Kroogz pointed out that one's good works do nothing in the human effort to "earn" salvation ...

Kroogz said: - Post 29,476​

All sin is evil. But not all evil is sin.​

​

Giving to the poor through the Spirit is divine Good. Giving to the poor through your Flesh....is evil/human good/ human deeds/human works.​

​

It is not a sin for unbelievers to give to the poor......But it is evil/human good/human deeds/human works.​

Kroogz made a distinction between good works of the believer as opposed to the goods works of the natural man ...

the born again believer ... created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10) ...

the good works done by natural man in order to gain favor with God ... all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf (Isa 64:6).

Please clarify if I have misconstrued, Kroogz.





Please provide the post submitted by Magenta wherein she was "making them see there own ignorance". I did not see Magenta's post.

.

You done did Good from my perspective.

 

[Rufus]

Once again you assume grace only has one mission. When God sends out His grace and truth to show a man what the real reality is and that man sees it and rejects it, then God's grace has been effective. When that man doesn't reject God's grace but believes then that grace saves. Grace does more than save people, it must first reveal what is to be believed. Just because the natural man is devoid of spiritual capacity doesn't limit God getting through to him.



So we are freed from to .... do nothing? Of course we speak of why we are freed, why shouldn't we?

We are in the effectual grace camp. We have said many times apart from grace nothing happens. The difference between you and me is what God is sending His grace to do. You only see salvation, I see God's grace at work in all things sometimes lifting up, sometimes holding down, sometimes renewing, sometimes destroying. Grace is God's power to effect His will in this world based on His nature and character. It works especially well in the believer but also on the unbeliever. It is by means of grace God makes the sun shine, the rain fall and the unbeliever to hear the Gospel.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

And we agree on one thing, God does forbid forcing anyone to believe.

In your universe God's saving grace is exceedingly more effectual in producing negative responses since its results in more unbelievers than believers, which means God's love failed since a major aspect to his love is faithfulness. And since all the promises in scripture are YES in Christ (not yes and no!), then God utterly failed to deliver on his unilateral, unconditional New Covenant promises. Of course, this "little" theological problem also contradicts 1Cor 13:8 AND also Rom 13:10, for love does no wrong or harm to anyone. Yet, here you are boasting about all the harm "saving grace" has brought billions of people during this New Covenant Age, since the engine to God's grace is his love! So...you're faced with three contradictions.

Since you claim that God's grace was intentionally designed to produce both positive and negative results ("yes" and "no", respectively), then you should be able to find passages in scripture that support your dual design of grace theory. Show me from the Word where God's grace ever failed in his dealings with the sons of men -- where God's Word ever returned to him void.

P.S. A fourth problem you have with dual mission theory is why would God give saving grace to all the unbeliever who He knew in eternity would reject that grace in the first place? You make God out to be a village idiot.

 

[Jordon]

hope/pray you have a very nice day today as well ...





Here's my take ...

@Genez made a distinction between the sinner who continues his or her "evil" and the sinner who does not.

Genez said:​

Two people can be equally sinners.​

One sinner will be evil towards God.​

The other sinner will seek God, and not be evil.​

Both are sinners ...

the "evil" sinner does not repent when the Holy Spirit reproves him or her ...

the "not evil" sinner does repent when the Holy Spirit reproves him or her.

Please clarify if I have misconstrued, Genez.


@Kroogz pointed out that one's good works do nothing in the human effort to "earn" salvation ...

Kroogz said: - Post 29,476​

All sin is evil. But not all evil is sin.​

​

Giving to the poor through the Spirit is divine Good. Giving to the poor through your Flesh....is evil/human good/ human deeds/human works.​

​

It is not a sin for unbelievers to give to the poor......But it is evil/human good/human deeds/human works.​

Kroogz made a distinction between good works of the believer as opposed to the goods works of the natural man ...

the born again believer ... created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10) ...

the good works done by natural man in order to gain favor with God ... all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf (Isa 64:6).

Please clarify if I have misconstrued, Kroogz.





Please provide the post submitted by Magenta wherein she was "making them see there own ignorance". I did not see Magenta's post.

.

Yep apparently God making people believe is evil

Giving to the poor is evil

And sin is not evil, which is what was stated by Genez, genez categorically stated sin is not evil , and then he categorically separated the two acts and completely separated evil and sin to be unrelated, then genez justified his statements with your quote here.

Yep ok I'm back to front thanks

1 John 3:4

Matthew 7:17

Isaiah 59:2

Romans 6:23

Proverbs 15:29

1 Corinthians 10:13


Also magenta stated I was making them see there own ignorance.

Well ill guess I'll see you in 24 hours for more denial

 

[sawdust]

Can't believe if spiritually dead

yes you can, or do you think grace is ineffectual and God can't make blind men see the truth He presents so they may believe?

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Yes, it is a privilege to believe in Christ. It cost Him everything to destroy the sin barrier and conquer death. Just as it is a privilege to suffer for Him. We don't have some sort of right to salvation even though it was due to Adam's sin that put us in this predicament. We are still responsible for our own personal sins and being given the opportunity to believe in Him unto salvation is something to be treasured.

That verse is not saying what you think it is saying. God does not cause us to believe. He puts that responsibility squarely on our shoulders. We believe, God saves. We don't believe. God leaves us in our sin and consequent death.

Acts 19:4
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

John the baptist told people to believe.

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Jesus told people to believe.

Believing is what people do. It is as natural as breathing. But we need grace to suppress the lies in righteousness and the truth to be revealed if we are to believe what is necessary for salvation. God promises to save those who believe and God always keeps His word.

John 3:15
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.


You lot don't even seem to understand that regeneration is your salvation from death that the Gospel promises. You lot think you have to be saved in order to be saved. Crazy talk.

You were dead spiritually then made alive spiritually. That sir, is being saved from death.

The Gospel is the power of salvation yet you make regeneration the power of salvation. Regeneration is the result of the Gospel, not it's forerunner.

 

[rogerg]

I do believe when someone comes to be saved that they will repent, but I believe it will be in response to the activity of God, and not the cause of God's activity.

The reason I went to Romans 10:9 is because it states that when an individual confesses the Lord Jesus, they will be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:3 states that no one calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit. This is why I believe that God must already be working in an individual before they are saved. If one must confess the Lord Jesus, and that can only come about by the action of the Spirit, it stands to reason that the Spirit is already at work.

I would mention, Cameron, that in Scripture, I believe I've observed the word "saved" being used in different ways: one to denote spiritual status (as a noun); another to denote an action (as a verb). I believe that in 10:9 it is used as a verb in the future tense. I think the reason for that is to describe literally being saved (escaping) from God's wrath on the last day, and not as a change to spiritual status. Of course, a change to spiritual status must have preceded it at some point, but I don't think that is what is referred to there. I base this upon the following verses (below). Notice that per 5:9, they, having already been justified by Christ's blood (saved), "shall be" (future) saved from His wrath. Also notice that in 10:9 the same "shalt be" exists - again, in a future tense with same word used between the two verses (even though it is spelled a little differently). I believe it is referring to being saved (escaping) God wrath on the last day
It also seems to me, that should we need to do something to become saved and should we do it, then by definition, salvation must occur immediately upon the doing and not at some future point in time, so to be consistent, the tenses between the two should be the same, not different.

[Rom 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[Rom 10:9 KJV] 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

In the following verses, I believe we can see how scripture depicts an actual change to spiritual status/state when it occurs. It is depicted as "are saved" and "are ye saved" - both in the present tense, not "shall be saved" in a future tense.

[Eph 2:5, 8 KJV]
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

In addition to the requirements for salvation as described by Rom 10:9 (above ) - that it actually means a change to spiritual state or status, then the below would then also have to be factored-in as requirements for changing spiritual status. With each being somewhat different from the other, a conflict would arise as to how one actually does become saved because their requirements would be different, and then man would have to mix and match different actions in order to acquire salvation

[Mar 16:16 KJV] 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[Jhn 10:9 KJV] 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
[Act 15:11 KJV] 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
[Act 16:31 KJV] 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
[Rom 10:13 KJV] 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Just thought I'd mention these other ways of looking at it - hope it makes sense. If not let me know and I'll try to clarify.

 

[cv5]

I guess I would say this i believe he is at work around us. ( like a fishing lure to a fish) but he is not at work in us till we bite the hook (aka believe)

I absolutely believe God is at work around us it is one of the many ways he draws us in. I also believe we have to take the bait.

An accurate Biblical analogy would be the sinner of their own volition and free will saying "I do" to the Groom, the Kinsman Redeemer, Who is tenderly and earnestly calling, wooing, drawing with bands of love, and tender mercies.

There are no kidnappings, inappropriate forced conceptions, nor shotgun weddings in God redemptive economy.

Here we have an OT type: God the Father seeking a Bride for His Son by agency of the Holy Spirit.
The Bride MUST agree to the marriage proposal of her own free will.

[Gen 24:57 KJV]
And they said, We will call the damsel, and enquire at her mouth.

[Gen 24:58 KJV]
And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go.

[Gen 24:63 KJV]
And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide: and he lifted up his eyes, and saw, and, behold, the camels [were] coming.

[Gen 24:64 KJV]
And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel.

[Gen 24:65 KJV]
For she [had] said unto the servant, What man [is] this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant [had] said, It [is] my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself.

[Gen 24:67 KJV]
And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's [death].

*****************************************************************************************

[Psa 45:10 KJV]
Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;

[Psa 45:11 KJV]
So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he [is] thy Lord; and worship thou him.

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="Genez, post: 5643145, member: 262512"]Jeremiah 29:11

For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you
and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

That was said to someone who was already a believer!

Psalm 139:16

Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

That only tells us that God is omniscient and was telling the psalmist that God had planned out the life of him whom God knew would believe!

Isaiah 46:10

I make known the end from the beginning,​

from ancient times, what is still to come.​

I say, ‘My purpose will stand,​

and I will do all that I please.’ ​

That has to do with God saying that what He has planned for that persons life (being a believer) will take place as God wants it to be.




None of those versus tell us how God made them to believe!

They only tell us that God knew they would believe.[/QUOTE]

Another lie! Jeremiah was addressing apostate Israel who was already in captivity in Babylon! The plans God had for Israel were still in their future.

You need to connect with HIH and she'll inform you how exceedingly important it is to understand the Word in its context, context, context, context, context....................................

 

[Cameron143]

I would mention, Cameron, that in Scripture, I believe I've observed the word "saved" being used in different ways: one to denote spiritual status (as a noun); another to denote an action (as a verb). I believe that in 10:9 it is used as a verb in the future tense. I think the reason for that is to describe literally being saved (escaping) from God's wrath on the last day, and not as a change to spiritual status. Of course, a change to spiritual status must have preceded it at some point, but I don't think that is what is referred to there. I base this upon the following verses (below). Notice that per 5:9, they, having already been justified by Christ's blood (saved), "shall be" (future) saved from His wrath. Also notice that in 10:9 the same "shalt be" exists - again, in a future tense with same word used between the two verses (even though it is spelled a little differently). I believe it is referring to being saved (escaping) God wrath on the last day
It also seems to me, that should we need to do something to become saved and should we do it, then by definition, salvation must occur immediately upon the doing and not at some future point in time, so to be consistent, the tenses between the two should be the same, not different.

[Rom 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[Rom 10:9 KJV] 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

In the following verses, I believe we can see how scripture depicts an actual change to spiritual status/state when it occurs. It is depicted as "are saved" and "are ye saved" - both in the present tense, not "shall be saved" in a future tense.

[Eph 2:5, 8 KJV]
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

In addition to the requirements for salvation as described by Rom 10:9 (above ) - that it actually means a change to spiritual state or status, then the below would then also have to be factored-in as requirements for changing spiritual status. With each being somewhat different from the other, a conflict would arise as to how one actually does become saved because their requirements would be different, and then man would have to mix and match different actions in order to acquire salvation

[Mar 16:16 KJV] 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[Jhn 10:9 KJV] 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
[Act 15:11 KJV] 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
[Act 16:31 KJV] 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
[Rom 10:13 KJV] 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Just thought I'd mention these other ways of looking at it - hope it makes sense. If not let me know and I'll try to clarify.

So where does 1 Corinthians 12:3 fit in?

 

[cv5]

Understanding how? Spiritually? Naturally?

That Calvinist straw man nonsense argument has been immolated many times.
Every man is in fact created with a spirit, in all cases, without exception.

[Job 32:8 KJV]
But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

[Pro 20:27 KJV]
The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

[Ecc 3:21 KJV]
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

[Zec 12:1 KJV]
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.