Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

Yes the Gospel is hidden to them that are lost.

The significance is hidden. Even an atheist can tell you what "Christians believe" about Jesus and the Cross.

 

[Rufus]

reneweddaybyday said:

is it your claim that natural man is given a new heart "long before" he or she hears the gospel?​

​

from a site you support ... (bold mine)

What does the Bible mean when it says that we will receive a new heart?​

​

When we are born again, God performs a heart transplant, as it were. He gives us a new heart. The power of the Holy Spirit changes our hearts from sin-focused to God-focused. We do not become perfect (1 John 1:8); we still have our sinful flesh and the freedom to choose whether or not to obey it. However, when Jesus died for us on the cross, He broke the power of sin that controls us (Romans 6:10). Receiving Him as our Savior gives us access to God and His power—a power to transform our hearts from sin-hardened to Christ-softened. When we were separated from God with hardened hearts, we found it impossible to please Him. We tended toward selfishness, rebellion, and sin. With new hearts we are declared righteous before God (2 Corinthians 5:21). The Holy Spirit gives us a desire to please God that was foreign to us in our hardened state.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/new-heart.html​

not true ... there is no gestation period in the new birth. A person is not born again unless and until he or she believes in the Lord Jesus Christ ... that Christ died for our sins and He rose again the third day (1 Cor 15:1-4).





You are describing God's drawing through His lovingkindness which I agree takes place over time.

The Greek word paliggenesía is translated into English "regeneration" in Titus 3:5; the word paliggenesía is made up of two Greek words ... palin = again and genesis = birth.

I believe natural man can believe truth in God's Word before being born again. Each time a person believes truth, God brings increase to the heart ... that does not mean a person is born again. The truth that must be believed in order for regeneration to take place is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16). The natural man is brought to the point of believing the gospel through God's drawing as he or she believes over the course of time ... some folks come to believe the gospel on their deathbeds ... some folks believe the gospel at a young age and their relationship with the Father develops in this lifetime, bringing the newly born again one from babe in Christ feeding on the milk of the Word to more mature and feeding on the meat of the Word.

.

Now, you're pressing the analogy between physical and spiritual births, by saying there is "no gestation period" in the spiritual birth, which is not entirely true either. Sanctification, like gestation, is a process, is it not!? The efficacy of God's drawing is also a process, is it not? What you fail to see is that numerous spiritual truths have different aspects/nuances to them, so this is why in God's infinite wisdom spiritual life is presented in scripture sometimes as resurrection and other times as birth. Neither one of these terms are synonymous, but both do justice to describing life.

 

[Rufus]

The Gospel itself is not hidden because anyone can pick up the Bible and read it.

Reading is one thing; understanding what is being read is quite another.

 

[lrs68]

Reading is one thing; understanding what is being read is quite another.

Amen!

 

[cv5]

Receive
incline thy ear
Cry out
Seek
Search

[Pro 2:1 KJV]
My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;

[Pro 2:2 KJV]
So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, [and] apply thine heart to understanding;

[Pro 2:3 KJV]
Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, [and] liftest up thy voice for understanding;

[Pro 2:4 KJV]
If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures;

[Pro 2:5 KJV]
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

[Pro 2:6 KJV]
For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding.

[Pro 2:9 KJV]
Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; [yea], every good path.

 

[sawdust]

How in the world could it have ONLY by God's grace since that grace is totally ineffective? The only component to salvation that has efficacy to it, according to FWT, is man's "freewill", since all men are in total control of their eternal destiny.

Once again you assume grace only has one mission. When God sends out His grace and truth to show a man what the real reality is and that man sees it and rejects it, then God's grace has been effective. When that man doesn't reject God's grace but believes then that grace saves. Grace does more than save people, it must first reveal what is to be believed. Just because the natural man is devoid of spiritual capacity doesn't limit God getting through to him.

There are three distinct kinds of soteriological freedom: There's freedom FROM the Penalty of sin (Justification), from the Power of sin (Sanctification) and from the Presence of sin (Glorification). You FWers steadfastly refuse to believe that the only way the will can truly be free is when the will is freed from the power of its bondage to its sin nature. You talk up freedom but it's always freedom TO do, never freedom from adverse influences or consequences. Of course, you can't believe that because then you'd be in the effectual grace camp that actually empowers the sinner's faculties in his heart to make righteous choices. And God forbid that He should force anyone to believe, right?

So we are freed from to .... do nothing? Of course we speak of why we are freed, why shouldn't we?

We are in the effectual grace camp. We have said many times apart from grace nothing happens. The difference between you and me is what God is sending His grace to do. You only see salvation, I see God's grace at work in all things sometimes lifting up, sometimes holding down, sometimes renewing, sometimes destroying. Grace is God's power to effect His will in this world based on His nature and character. It works especially well in the believer but also on the unbeliever. It is by means of grace God makes the sun shine, the rain fall and the unbeliever to hear the Gospel.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

And we agree on one thing, God does forbid forcing anyone to believe.

 

[cv5]

Practically every unbeliever we have contact with has heard the Gospel every Christmas season and Easter.

The Gospel is VERY simple.

You do not have to understand the Bible to be saved.
Just find yourself able to believe Jesus really lived and went to the Cross.

You don't even NEED a Bible to be saved. The vast majority of Paul's gentile converts likely did not have one.
Scrolls were superintended at the synagogues, very few common Jews owned them, and even fewer gentiles.

One oral sermon from Paul was all that it took for many.

 

[cv5]

Yes the Gospel is hidden to them that are lost.

This as a result of not receiving, not coming when called, not inclining the ear to hear.
This choosing (or not) phenomenon resonating thought the Bible cover to cover.

Isa 55:3
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

 

[rogerg]

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them
which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 4 v 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

@Jordon

No, it is not for everyone to "know"

[Eph 3:17-20 KJV]
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

[1Pe 2:8 KJV]
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

 

[Magenta]

@Jordon
[Eph 3:17-20 KJV]
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

[1Pe 2:8 KJV]
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

1 Peter 2 v 7-8 To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word- and to this they were appointed.

 

[Jordon]

@Jordon

No, it is not for everyone to "know"

[Eph 3:17-20 KJV]
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

[1Pe 2:8 KJV]
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

1 Peter 2:7-8

Romans 9:32-33

Both passages describe Jesus can become a stumbling block to those who reject him, which means the spiritual division his message creates, by presenting a path to salvation, those who believe are on the right path and those who don't believe his gospel, Then they are considered a stumbling block,

The prevailing situation tho at the time was The Jews where expecting a different type of Messiah as one of the reasons for there stumbling block, but of course there is many more reasons, for today, one almighty one rejecting his father

 

[Genez]

You don't even NEED a Bible to be saved. The vast majority of Paul's gentile converts likely did not have one.
Scrolls were superintended at the synagogues, very few common Jews owned them, and even fewer gentiles.

One oral sermon from Paul was all that it took for many.

When Peter preached to a large crowd of Gentiles they had little or no knowledge of the Bible.

Before he finished preaching many were talking in tongues, much to the shock of the Jews with Peter,
who did have knowledge of the Torah.

 

[rogerg]

1 Peter 2:7-8

Romans 9:32-33

Both passages describe Jesus can become a stumbling block to those who reject him, which means the spiritual division his message creates, by presenting a path to salvation, those who believe are on the right path and those who don't believe his gospel, Then they are considered a stumbling block,

The prevailing situation tho at the time was The Jews where expecting a different type of Messiah as one of the reasons for there stumbling block, but of course there is many more reasons, for today, one almighty one rejecting his father

That's not what I understand the verses I posted to mean nor of how I perceive that salvation occurs. If I correctly understood you, your point is that it is up to the reader to either accept or reject a path that leads them to Him. With that, I would respectfully disagree. I think those verses tell us it is a determination made by God alone, not man. Hence, the "whereunto also they were appointed". By "appointed" I think we are being told the result was preordained. The "also", I think means those who do not "stumble at the word" do not, because they were so appointed by God not to stumble. Neither alternative seems to me to be in the hands of the respective recipient to determine.

 

[Genez]

1 Peter 2 v 7-8 To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word- and to this they were appointed.

Note!

They stumble because they disobey the word- and to this they were appointed.

.

 

[Jordon]

That's not what I understand the verses I posted to mean nor of how I perceive that salvation occurs. If I correctly understood you, your point is that it is up to the reader to either accept or reject a path that leads them to Him. With that, I would respectfully disagree. I think those verses tell us it is a determination made by God alone, not man. Hence, the "whereunto also they were appointed". By "appointed" I think we are being told the result was preordained. The "also", I think means those who do not "stumble at the word" do not, because they were so appointed by God not to stumble. Neither alternative seems to me to be in the hands of the respective recipient to determine.

you've not understood what I've said somewhere was my first thought, but when i post to people,
I try to get on the same dialogue as them as to get a full understanding of there faith in understanding, so it may seem like im saying something im not at times,

But you never quoted me directly initially, so I'm not sure what your in disagreement with me over,

The chief corner stone the Jews rejected, never believed him in many ways , they where given the opportunity to believe him, but they never grasped his spiritual message of salvation, plus the Jews where expecting a political leader and one that would fight there battles, now those who did believe his message he remained there chief corner stone, to those who didn't, there stumbling block, was they not able to discern the spiritual message, which in the Light of God, the gospel was hidden to them, Jesus came to his own and many did not receive him, which means the Messiah came to who the father had nurtured and built up also. I believe that the message was loud and clear, the father gives everyone the chance to go to the son

 

[rogerg]

you've not understood what I've said somewhere was my first thought, but when i post to people,
I try to get on the same dialogue as them as to get a full understanding of there faith in understanding, so it may seem like im saying something im not at times,

But you never quoted me directly initially, so I'm not sure what your in disagreement with me over,

The chief corner stone the Jews rejected, never believed him in many ways , they where given the opportunity to believe him, but they never grasped his spiritual message of salvation, plus the Jews where expecting a political leader and one that would fight there battles, now those who did believe his message he remained there chief corner stone, to those who didn't, there stumbling block, was they not able to discern the spiritual message, which in the Light of God, the gospel was hidden to them, Jesus came to his own and many did not receive him, which means the Messiah came to who the father had nurtured and built up also. I believe that the message was loud and clear, the father gives everyone the chance to go to the son

Sorry, you're correct, I didn't directly quote you, and that makes replying difficult.
Anyway, to hopefully make it simpler, the crux of what I'm trying to say (and maybe not doing too good a job of it), is that each person has been respectively predetermined by God to be either disobedient or to be obedient - hence the "appointed" (by God) to one or the other. I think it similar to Acts 13:48 which states it far better than I'm doing.
Therefore, whichever one they are of (obedient or not), is not a function of themselves, nor of external stimuli, but of God choice for them alone, otherwise, it would be by our works. Hope this is clear and makes sense.
Anyway, need to go and pick up my dog in a few from the vet.

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[cv5]

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Already de-Calvinized. Several times.
You flunked that course.

 

[cv5]

[Isa 55:3 KJV]
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.

[Isa 55:4 KJV]
Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

[Isa 55:5 KJV]
Behold, thou shalt call a nation [that] thou knowest not, and nations [that] knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

[Isa 55:6 KJV]
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

[Isa 55:7 KJV]
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

 

[Jordon]

Sorry, you're correct, I didn't directly quote you, and that makes replying difficult.
Anyway, to hopefully make it simpler, the crux of what I'm trying to say (and maybe not doing too good a job of it), is that each person has been respectively predetermined by God to be either disobedient or to be obedient - hence the "appointed" (by God) to one or the other. I think it similar to Acts 13:48 which states it far better than I'm doing.
Therefore, whichever one they are of (obedient or not), is not a function of themselves, nor of external stimuli, but of God choice for them alone, otherwise, it would be by our works. Hope this is clear and makes sense.
Anyway, need to go and pick up my dog in a few from the vet.

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I believe thats' what i more or less just said in some regards, but I do believe everyone gets predetermined with the chance to believe, by God for-knowing them,

I believe that theres a discernment and disagreement here over that, and I'm not sure if some people are saying with some people God doesn't for-know at all, but I really think thats is impossible as nobody is without excuse, even the unbelievers have had there conscience pricked, which God would have predetermined before they where born, and foreknew, before they where born, but made alive to them when they where growing up.

 

[Genez]

If God foreknows who will believe?

Does that mean He makes them believe?