144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[Psalm1]

Wrong. I didn't turn God's Word into a lie; I just am able to comprehend what it is saying and apparently you can't.
So, therefore, the "some of them" means...... well....it means some of them, not all of them. And if not all, then your supposition of which Israel is in view is wrong. This is confirmed by the v5 which you selected, that it is only a remnant according to the election of grace
and was not according to election by lineage. And if the remnant was of election by grace, those afterwards who become saved must also be saved by the same election of grace and not election by lineage. There is only one Israel in scripture where ALL who comprise it will/must through grace be saved, and that is spiritual Israel, the Israel of God. Unless, that is, you're attempting to say that everyone who was/is ever of the nation of Israel must unconditionally become saved. If that is your contention, then the onus is on you to explain specifically what/who you mean by "Israel" because it is clear from scripture that many of biblical/national Israel would never become saved.

I am saying Rev 14 Only fits the gathering of the Jews from romans 9-11.

You guys can transpose "every man woman and child unto it to attempt to dilute what is written, but it is a massive fail on your part.

You need to go back to the two wives of the bible.
Gomer in Hosea
Ruth in the book of Ruth.

2 covenants
2 wives.

There is much attempts to destroy God's plan.

That is why "SPIRITUALIZING" Comes into play.
I can then make Daniel, romans, and the 144,000 into my desired fitment for doctrine.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Romans 11:1 Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite
(MY NOTE Your "not all" addition attempt to change scripture, is duly noted. Paul actually say's "God forbid". I am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. CONTEST PHYSICAL ISRAEL!)

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
(MY NOTE God has not cast away Israel. The reply claims that ""God cast away the disobedient branches"". Broken branches are not the same as total rejection.)

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(MY NOTE Context is "partial hardening", not total rejection. The reply implies permanent casting away.)

Rom 11:17–20 And if some of the branches be broken of.
(MY NOTE Paul says SOME branches were broken off, not the whole tree.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in…”
(MY NOTE Broken branches ARE NOT permanently discarded. Context contradicts the idea of permanent casting away.)

Rom 11:25 blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(MY NOTE The blindness is PARTIAL & TEMPORATY. The reply’s “spiritual Israel vs. natural Israel” misses actual contextual citing: Again Physical Israel is hardened for a time, but not forever.)

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved.
(MY NOTE Context ALL, a promise of national restoration. Your reply's """they’re welcome to come"""/addition attempts to change scripture. The ACTUAL CONTEXT IS ""ALL"" of ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED)

Romans 11:28–29 “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

Finally,
Physical Israel remains beloved because of God's covenant with the patriarchs (vs 1). Your reply's focus on "spiritual Israel" (found no place in Rom 11 text) ignores > Paul's insistence that God's calling of physical Israel is irrevocable.

Everything you stated supports my assertions that only a believing remnant, the election, is saved. The rest are broken off from the promises. If they repent and believe, then they will be grafted back into the tree because God has not completely cast away his people and honors the calling if they repent and believe.

Here's a challenge for you, or for anyone else who wants to. Show us one verse in Romans 9-11, excluding Romans 11:26, that says anything other than a remnant is saved.

If you can't do that then we have to conclude that Romans 11:26 does not mean that everyone in Israel will be saved, but that Paul is using the terminology "all Israel" to refer to the believing remnant of Israel throughout all of time. Because Paul would not expend the effort he did in detailing how only a remnant is saved in chapters 9-11, and then turn around and contradict everything he previously said in one verse.

 

[FlyingDove]

Paul refers to spiritual Israel as children of promise born according to the spirit

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born according to the flesh persecuted him that was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Galatians 4:28-29​

The discussion is Rom chapter 11's message. Start a thread on Gal if you want to discuss it.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
(MY NOTE God has not cast away Israel. The reply claims that ""God cast away the disobedient branches"". Broken branches are not the same as total rejection.)

It says God has not cast away his people whom he foreknew. That refers to the election, ie, the believing remnant, It does not refer to the disbelieving branches

 

[ATG]

Matthew 15

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Christ did not say He was sent to the Jews.

And most to New Testament is about gentiles

In this regard, we can say that all people on earth, since Adam and Eve transgressed. have been the lost sheep of the Israel of God.

Jhn 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus being born a Jew came to the Jews first, but Jesus from the beginning being the Son of man, has come for all people of every nation on earth:

Whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus not preaching a national Jewish gospel, is why many Jews turned from Him, and sought to kill Him instead:

Jhn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Look at how upset some Judaizers still get, when their effort to separate natural Jew from Gentile in the body and service of God and the Lamb, is rebuked by simply preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to whosoever? And I doubt they are even natural Jews. I get OT Jews still rejecting Jesus Christ, and seeking their own Jewish Messiah, but Gentiles preaching one? And Christians at that?

 

[rogerg]

I am saying Rev 14 Only fits the gathering of the Jews from romans 9-11.

No, not if you look closely at Rev 14 - it does not fit the Jews of Rom 9 -14. The 144,000 are Jews AND Gentiles both, and that is not really debatable. I've gone through this with you in excruciating detail before, but I will try again.

Okay, this can be easily seen if we trace in scripture those who can sing a new song:

In Psa 149:1, we see that the "new song" is to be sung only in the congregation of saints (the saved), no others:

[Psa 149:1 KJV] 1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.

In Rev 14:3 we see that the 144,000 alone learn the new song and they are the redeemed of the earth with the Father's name written in their foreheads.

[Rev 14:1-3 KJV]
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

But in Rev 5: 9, we see (and this is an important verse), that those who sing the new song were redeemed by God
"out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" and that is the most critical part of the verse (along with that they sang the new song). Therefore, the 144,000 are NOT limited only to Jews or Israel but are saints.

[Rev 5:9 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Therefore, based upon those verses, the 144,00 alone learn the new song and that no one else but the 144,000 could learn it, and that they are the congregation of saints redeemed out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation, and are not just Jews of Israel, so, the Jews do not entirely comprise the 144,000. Rev 5 & 14 refers to saints. In that context, Rom 9-11 is not germane to the 144,000.

 

[ATG]

They look rather like a holy remnant, sealed by God and protected from the Great Tribulation. Bodily resurrection in Rev. 20:1-5 hasn't happened yet until the Lord's return.

Agreed. I would say protected by the first resurrection of the saints, from the great tribulation and wrath of the Lamb upon the earth.

Jesus brings His blessed resurrection and His holy wrath to earth, when He comes again.

 

[FlyingDove]

It says God has not cast away his people whom he foreknew. That refers to the election, ie, the believing remnant, It does not refer to the disbelieving branches

I see no reason to continue this unfruitful back forth. I'm leaving this at we disagree.

 

[ATG]

They did not follow the Judean religion, pharisaism; they attempted to follow Moses.

Just digging a hole deeper and deeper. Your scrambling has derailed.

Judaism included Sadducees, not just Pharisees.
Act 23:6
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

And Paul as an unconverted Jew, was not just a leader of the Jews' religion, but also a leading Pharisee.
Act 26:4
My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews. Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Phl 3:4
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

At this point, it's just interesting to see how far down someone will go, in order to cling to a pet doctrine.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Just digging a hole deeper and deeper. Your scrambling has derailed.

Judaism included Sadducees, not just Pharisees.
Act 23:6
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

And Paul as an unconverted Jew, was not just a leader of the Jews' religion, but also a leading Pharisee.
Act 26:4
My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews. Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Phl 3:4
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

At this point, it's just interesting to see how far down someone will go, in order to cling to a pet doctrine.

Trying to decipher what your point is, or are you just being a nit-picker?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Here's a challenge for you, or for anyone else who wants to. Show us one verse in Romans 9-11, excluding Romans 11:26, that says anything other than a remnant is saved.

If you can't do that then we have to conclude that Romans 11:26 does not mean that everyone in Israel will be saved, but that Paul is using the terminology "all Israel" to refer to the believing remnant of Israel throughout all of time. Because Paul would not expend the effort he did in detailing how only a remnant is saved in chapters 9-11, and then turn around and contradict everything he previously said in one verse.

The one to whom this was addressed has declined. Anyone else up for this challenge?

 

[Psalm1]

No, not if you look closely at Rev 14 - it does not fit the Jews of Rom 9 -14. The 144,000 are Jews AND Gentiles both, and that is not really debatable. I've gone through this with you in excruciating detail before, but I will try again.

Okay, this can be easily seen if we trace in scripture those who can sing a new song:

In Psa 149:1, we see that the "new song" is to be sung only in the congregation of saints (the saved), no others:

[Psa 149:1 KJV] 1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.

In Rev 14:3 we see that the 144,000 alone learn the new song and they are the redeemed of the earth with the Father's name written in their foreheads.

[Rev 14:1-3 KJV]
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.But in Rev 5: 9, we see (and this is an important verse), that those who sing the new song were redeemed by God"out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" and that is the most critical part of the verse (along with that they sang the new song). Therefore, the 144,000 are NOT limited only to Jews or Israel but are saints.[Rev 5:9 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;Therefore, based upon those verses, the 144,00 alone learn the new song and that no one else but the 144,000 could learn it, and that they are the congregation of saints redeemed out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation, and are not just Jews of Israel, so, the Jews do not entirely comprise the 144,000. Rev 5 & 14 refers to saints. In that context, Rom 9-11 is not germane to the 144,000.

lol
Re read it
Revelation 7
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands

""".....and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel"""

Huh ?
What?
The bible lied???


now...note the last verse that no doubt would normally help you see what is written.
See how the 144,000 jews are CONTRASTED IN THE NEXT SENTENCE WITH ETHNIC MIXTURE?????
SEE THE DUFFERENCE? ? ?
You actually added your theory of a mixture of races.
You added that out of thin air.
We are told who the 144K are.
Clearly a Jewish ONLY group.

But it gets worse for you because THEY ARE FIRSTFRUITS.
None of your camp knows that.
Every one of you stumble COMPLETELY over the 144,000 and who they are.
None of you REALIZE the significance of FIRSTFRUITS!!!
It goes right over your heads.!!!!!!
Look at the strange things you add and omit FOR YOUR DOCTRINE.
Flat out bizare.

 

[Psalm1]

The one to whom this was addressed has declined. Anyone else up for this challenge?

I can help you.
Rom 11
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Now... you are trying to possibly make certain arguments.
1) maybe you are bending it to mean if they do get saved it will be like Paul and it does not matter ethnicity.
2) or you are trying to allude that Romans 11 is just not really addressing Israel.

But you are looking for anything to possibly muddy up that the 2 covenants are being contrasted, and that Israel will be grafted back in.

It is a no brainer, and NOBODY on the planet thinks they are grafted back in some fashion APART FROM SALVATION THROUGH JESUS.

WHY do you think replacement theology ALWAYS progresses into hatred of Israel?

It Is Hand in hand a spirit operating.
(Antisemitism. )

What you guys are hoping for is some smoking gun. Some little something to undergurd the notion that GOD is AFTER GOMER. HE IS PURSUING HER. The Jewish people.
So you try to make that fact diminished by insisting anyone opposing your "jews cast down forever" doctrine is trying to say: "all of Israel is saved, including those that hate Jesus."
Nobody thinks that.
You are trying to ascribe claims that are outlandish.

When Mathias replaced judas, it fulfilled the prophecy that " he lost not one of them"

Now...someone could do to that, what you are doing to romans 11, and say , ""see...see that ???? That means the bible lied"".

So yes we will not be entering a doctrine that says, "all of Israel shall be saved", is God in confusion.

When you study the 2 wives all that misrepresentation will go away.

 

[Psalm1]

It says God has not cast away his people whom he foreknew. That refers to the election, ie, the believing remnant, It does not refer to the disbelieving branches

That's like saying you have a problem with Jn 3:16 because not all are saved when he actually died for all..

He is AFTER THE PLANETS POPULATION.
He died for everyone.
Not all are saved.

It is sad fact.
But a FACT just the same

God is after Gomer. As Hosea illustrates.

 

[Psalm1]

You have to START with facts.
Not doctrine.

The bible is a doctrine destroyer

 

[rogerg]

lol
Re read it
Revelation 7
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands

""".....and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel"""

Huh ?
What?
The bible lied???


now...note the last verse that no doubt would normally help you see what is written.
See how the 144,000 jews are CONTRASTED IN THE NEXT SENTENCE WITH ETHNIC MIXTURE?????
SEE THE DUFFERENCE? ? ?
You actually added your theory of a mixture of races.
You added that out of thin air.
We are told who the 144K are.
Clearly a Jewish ONLY group.

But it gets worse for you because THEY ARE FIRSTFRUITS.
None of your camp knows that.
Every one of you stumble COMPLETELY over the 144,000 and who they are.
None of you REALIZE the significance of FIRSTFRUITS!!!
It goes right over your heads.!!!!!!
Look at the strange things you add and omit FOR YOUR DOCTRINE.
Flat out bizare.

Wrong tribes, wrong Israel. You still don't get it. Who they represent is clearly identified by the " hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" so, I added nothing that isn't in scripture. You just are unable to comprehend it. But okay, I'm done trying to explain this to you.
BTW, the firstfruits is understood.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I can help you.
Rom 11
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Now... you are trying to possibly make certain arguments.
1) maybe you are bending it to mean if they do get saved it will be like Paul and it does not matter ethnicity.
2) or you are trying to allude that Romans 11 is just not really addressing Israel.

But you are looking for anything to possibly muddy up that the 2 covenants are being contrasted, and that Israel will be grafted back in.

It is a no brainer, and NOBODY on the planet thinks they are grafted back in some fashion APART FROM SALVATION THROUGH JESUS.

WHY do you think replacement theology ALWAYS progresses into hatred of Israel?

It Is Hand in hand a spirit operating.
(Antisemitism. )

What you guys are hoping for is some smoking gun. Some little something to undergurd the notion that GOD is AFTER GOMER. HE IS PURSUING HER. The Jewish people.
So you try to make that fact diminished by insisting anyone opposing your "jews cast down forever" doctrine is trying to say: "all of Israel is saved, including those that hate Jesus."
Nobody thinks that.
You are trying to ascribe claims that are outlandish.

When Mathias replaced judas, it fulfilled the prophecy that " he lost not one of them"

Now...someone could do to that, what you are doing to romans 11, and say , ""see...see that ???? That means the bible lied"".

So yes we will not be entering a doctrine that says, "all of Israel shall be saved", is God in confusion.

When you study the 2 wives all that misrepresentation will go away.

You failed the challenge, and I didn't order a word salad

 

[ATG]

My comment:

The nations, all the players in the old Testament did not vanish If any believes the physical 12 Tribes of Israel are no more, will find out --- they have been deceived.

Bible's rebuke:
Who's saying the OT physical tribes of Israel do not exist?

What's deceptive, is misrepresenting the argument, in order to argue against something, that no one is arguing for.

They still exist, but are no more exclusively servants of the living God of Israel. In the New Covenant of the risen God of Israel, there are among all nations on earth today, that repent for Jesus' sake and worship and serve Him daily in Spirit and in truth.

Loyalty to Israel after flesh to exclusively serve the crucified and risen Lamb of God, is Judaizing the living body of Christ.

Such a fleshy gospel is not just favoring the physical Jews, but is forbidding the Lord from divorcing His old natural people, that committed adultery and had Him put to death on a cross.

Jesus Christ now only seeks a people, that will worship and serve Him by faith in His resurrection, not by birth of flesh in an old dead covenant.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

No nation nor people are replacing natural Jews in their 12 tribes. You go from a misrepresentation to an absurdity.

the Doctrine of "replacement theology" , is false. the 12 tribes grown into Nations as was foretold, are alive and well today.

Once again, of course not. I've never even heard anyone teach that the natural tribes are somehow being replaced by Gentiles. Even outward circumcision doesn't make a Gentile a natural tribe member, which is only by birth.

Your misrepresentation of a vanished natural tribes, leads to an absurd 'replacement' with natural Gentile tribes.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Once again, of course not. I've never even heard anyone teach that the natural tribes are somehow being replaced by Gentiles. Even outward circumcision doesn't make a Gentile a natural tribe member, which is only by birth.

It's not that gentiles replaced Israel, but that Israel was transformed beyond national boundaries into the fullness of gentiles. Jacob prophesied that the seed of Israel would become a fullness of gentiles, ie, that remainder of living stones in God's temple numbering as the stars of heaven that was promised to Abraham that Israel failed to fulfill.

The lost tribes of Israel are a myth. There are, or were, only individual lost sheep of the house Israel after it was destroyed.

 

[ATG]

The "so all Israel will be saved" represents spiritual Israel, not the earthly nation of Israel. All of spiritual Israel will/must become saved.

Well said. All the Israel of God and the Lamb, that would repent and would be saved, shall be saved at Jesus' return.

Mar 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Act 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Anyone refusing to know the difference between natural Israel after the flesh, and Spirit-born Israel of God, are still of the Jews blind to the NT gospel of Jesus Christ to all people that repent.

Anyone trying to preach any all Jewish Israel of God, exclusively serving the crucified and risen Lamb of God, are still preaching another natural gospel of a natural born Jews-only Messiah...

It's an even more extreme Judaizing, than commanding outward circumcision of Gentiles to serve the living God. They at least would admit a circumcised Gentile into their company.