Resolving Problematic Interpretations of Scripture

[homwardbound]

T – total depravity, meaning that all souls are unable to seek salvation.

"If all Souls are unable" Then where is fairness?

U – unconditional election, meaning that souls cannot satisfy a divine condition (such as faith or repentance), but God elects to save some while damning the rest to hell.

Where again, is fairness to all equally? Since God is Love 1 Cor 13:13, and verses 4-7 God damns no one, yet will if others decide to not believe God consciously, God simply. loves us all and truthfully wants what is best for all. Left us all to choose to believe God in risen Son or not! For them to share this fact truth to all in love and mercy to all as Son did first for us all, by going to that cross willingly first. (We love because God loved us first)

L – limited atonement, meaning that Christ died to pay the penalty of sin only for the elect souls.

The above, Can't be true, since God loves us all unconditionally, yet not seen as that. Therefore some choose belief and some not. Both sides consciously, then the end, the great white throne judgement. God knows who do believe or will believe, yet all are called to choose either way, God fairly gives the same equal chance for all. Yet that does not predestinate some and others, can't enter too, that is not my God, the equal opportunity through risen Son form us all to choose. God is love 1 Cor 13:13 and is for us all to choose. That is the only thing Christ never died for is "Unbelief" to Father, to believe Son has reconciled all 2 Cor 5:16-20 to now believe and see through by Faith given us all to stand in, Col 1:21-23

I – irresistible grace, meaning that elect souls cannot resist God’s will for them to believe and be saved.

If it is irresistible, then there would be no more troubles to the believers would there? Since evil is still out and about doing its best to keep us out, as like in the book of Job reveals to me, and deeper in the willing Son for us to get risen where new life is given and troubles pursue us John 4:23-24

P – perseverance of the saints, meaning that the elect cannot repudiate their salvation and commit apostasy.

Once Saved ALWAYS SAVED!

HMM, Who saves, man or God? If God has saved me, you and others. No one can repudiate God ever, or will one? Anyone above God? Psalm 82 I see I can be or do that, yet will not, at least me, Therefore I see to live one day at a time and not take God's love and mercy for grated ever, nor to use, excuse or accuse anyone thank you, dead to first birth, alive to God in God's Spirit and Truth and freely love all as called. No more condemnation to anyone from me as I am not qualified. only Father in risen Son is qualified, to me at least.
Yet anyone can repudiate and change thier minds from former or later from Unbelief to Belief between God and them. free choice gvien to all is not ever taken away, that is true Love is it not? So glad I am not a puppet, thank you Father!
I. see Peter watch the Gentile be saved by God through using Peter, Peter watched them be saved, heard them in belief. Knew God was doing. the speaking through him to them, at the House of Cornelius, the Holy Ghost fell on them without any rituals to do to be in. Went to the other disciples, perplexed told them what he saw and then they spied out the liberty and brought in condemnation, heresies, in unbelief to God did this,. freely using Son to accomplish it.. okay you can be saved, "But" the Billy Goat entered, butting in. Said you must be Circumcised
Now other Law(s) are used, You got to go to my place of worship, you must do to be saved by God, if you do not see as I do then?. When God has called all to choose to believe God or not consciously, personally so. Son is risen where new life for anyone that chooses to believe God, God saves! Seals, Justifies, Eph1:13, then begins the new to sanctify each kid, he gave this to see it and be in intimate, who stop self works anymore to be in. As I see this in God's spirit and truth, not in the flesh thank you.
God has by Son elected all to choose to believe God or not, period thank you. All this is just simply what I see in the Love of God for us all 1 John 2:1-27 It is truly an Amazing Grace a gift, not a work(s) program as is, what any earth Church is a works program of self trying to be perfect, when no flesh can please God ever Romans 8:3 true tabernacle Hebrews 8:1-4
Today is the day to choose life or death. Now, by this dispensation, that Paul revealed. Is only revealed through Risen Son to be seen as if never sinned Col1:21-22 as Father reveals it or not yet to all fairly to all, in Father's timing not anyone else's. That be the gift given today by Father who loves us all equally. Father,. The only one good as Jesus sates in Matthew 19 and by the other disciples and Scribes in the Gospels.as well Thanks
Until one sees God has no partiality in persons , how can one, anyone know the true love of God gives us all though Son's willing death to begin with John 19:30, fulfilled Matthew 5:17, to see Hebrews 9:14-17 and Col 1 and 2

 

[GWH]

Any thoughts regarding what I just posted to Jon?

I generally try not to put too much effort in trying to convince someone who is not asking.

I understand, but I enjoyed perusing GW for replying to Jon and look forward to continuing my study for the remainder.
(Retirement is good :^) I intend to share pertinent parts on our website for everyone to use as a resource.

I also look forward to any further comments you feel led to make, so please stay tuned.
I realize systematic Bible study and dialectical theology are not everyone's gift or cup of tea.

 

[GWH]

Once Saved ALWAYS SAVED!

HMM, Who saves, man or God? If God has saved me, you and others. No one can repudiate God ever, or will one? Anyone above God? Psalm 82 I see I can be or do that, yet will not, at least me, Therefore I see to live one day at a time and not take God's love and mercy for grated ever, nor to use, excuse or accuse anyone thank you, dead to first birth, alive to God in God's Spirit and Truth and freely love all as called. No more condemnation to anyone from me as I am not qualified. only Father in risen Son is qualified, to me at least.
Yet anyone can repudiate and change thier minds from former or later from Unbelief to Belief between God and them. free choice gvien to all is not ever taken away, that is true Love is it not? So glad I am not a puppet, thank you Father!
I. see Peter watch the Gentile be saved by God through using Peter, Peter watched them be saved, heard them in belief. Knew God was doing. the speaking through him to them, at the House of Cornelius, the Holy Ghost fell on them without any rituals to do to be in. Went to the other disciples, perplexed told them what he saw and then they spied out the liberty and brought in condemnation, heresies, in unbelief to God did this,. freely using Son to accomplish it.. okay you can be saved, "But" the Billy Goat entered, butting in. Said you must be Circumcised
Now other Law(s) are used, You got to go to my place of worship, you must do to be saved by God, if you do not see as I do then?. When God has called all to choose to believe God or not consciously, personally so. Son is risen where new life for anyone that chooses to believe God, God saves! Seals, Justifies, Eph1:13, then begins the new to sanctify each kid, he gave this to see it and be in intimate, who stop self works anymore to be in. As I see this in God's spirit and truth, not in the flesh thank you.
God has by Son elected all to choose to believe God or not, period thank you. All this is just simply what I see in the Love of God for us all 1 John 2:1-27 It is truly an Amazing Grace a gift, not a work(s) program as is, what any earth Church is a works program of self trying to be perfect, when no flesh can please God ever Romans 8:3 true tabernacle Hebrews 8:1-4
Today is the day to choose life or death. Now, by this dispensation, that Paul revealed. Is only revealed through Risen Son to be seen as if never sinned Col1:21-22 as Father reveals it or not yet to all fairly to all, in Father's timing not anyone else's. That be the gift given today by Father who loves us all equally. Father,. The only one good as Jesus sates in Matthew 19 and by the other disciples and Scribes in the Gospels.as well Thanks
Until one sees God has no partiality in persons , how can one, anyone know the true love of God gives us all though Son's willing death to begin with John 19:30, fulfilled Matthew 5:17, to see Hebrews 9:14-17 and Col 1 and 2

Yes, God saves sinners who repent and accept Jesus as Messiah & Lord incarnate. God initiates; sinners may repent--or not.
Yes, God does not show favoritism by electing only some and condemning the rest to hell.
Yes, Today is the day to choose to cooperate with God before time runs out.
Amen thrice!

 

[Jon777]

Thanks for sharing The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (TRDOP) in posts #30-36, Jon. I will reply in the order received,
but in order to keep the discussion manageable, at this point/time I might omit elements that do not seem directly related
to the T in TULIP/Total Depravity. I will number the paragraphs in case that is helpful for your next reply.

1. You began by citing Acts 16:14, which says the Lord opened Lydia’s heart, apparently wanting to imply that the Lord does not want to open every persons heart, which is a false interpretation in light of 1Timothy 2:3-4, which indicates that God wants to open everyone’s heart—prompting the question, “why is everyone not like Lydia?” What is TRDOP’s answer?

2. Next you cited Phil. 2:12-13, which instructs Christians to work out their own salvation, because God works in them to desire and do his good will, so the question prompted by this is “how does working out one’s own salvation harmonize with God’s working within a person?” TRDOP’s answer?

3. Then you say that if 1Tim. 2:3-4 speaking of God’s intentional will is true, then salvation will be universal, overlooking/omitting God’s permissive will, which allows sinners to reject His grace.

4. You cited Daniel 4:35, which seems similar to what Paul wrote in Romans 9:20, so I will reply to that NT passage, which teaches that God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants. You cited Psalm 135:6 and Job 23:13 as also saying this. We who believe God wants to save everyone agree with this.

5. The next relevant Scripture you cited was Genesis 8:21, which says that God will not destroy life on earth again, even though every human sins when they attain the age of accountability. We agree.

6. 1John 5:19 is prooftexted, but with verse 18 as conext we can see that it means the whole world other than those born of God is under Satan’s control. We agree.

7. 2Cor. 4:4 says Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers. Romans 6:16-17 provides context for this prooftext enabling us to see that we are slaves to the one we choose to obey. Do you agree?

8. You cited 2Tim. 2:24-26, which teaches that Christians must not quarrel, but instead hope that God will lead them to repent, come to know the truth and be saved, echoing 1Tim. 2:3-4. Hope you agree.

9. Romans 3:10-12 says that no one is righteous or seeks God. The meaning of this quote is stated by Paul: Both Jews and Gentiles are sinners in need of God’s salvation. We agree.

10. Romans 7:18 is cited for calling sinful desires the “sinful nature”, which wars against desire to do good or obey God’s will, and Rom. 7:19-8:1 says the war can be won by those who are IN Christ. Agreed?

I this is enough for one whack at a reply. Let us see how Jon is taking this exercise in dialectical theology.

Over.

Here is my reply to your 10 points, I'll follow up later with my verses for you to explain away:

1. In context, 1 Tim. 2:3-4 refers to all categories of men, not all men without exception.

2. A person is justified by Christ’s merit alone with no contribution from man. Yet, sanctification, the “working out your salvation” includes man’s participation, but it is guaranteed to be accomplished by God’s power 1 Thess.5:23

3. In 1 Tim. 2:3-4, it is not all without exception, it is only the categories of men who are included in the will here. I have myself used the phrase God’s “permissive will” at times, but I prefer to refer to God’s “preceptive will”, His commandments for man to obey, not his secret will:

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29, KJV)

4. Your approach to Dan 4:35; Ro 9:20; Psa 135:6 and Job 23:13 will result in universal salvation, none are lost. Clearly unbiblical.

5. We do not agree. First, where do you find “the age of accountability’ in Scripture. Second, “From my birth I have been evil, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” (Ps 51:5, REB) Or do you deny “original sin”, Adam’s sin declared upon all humans regardless of age.

6. “world” has several meanings in Scripture, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1John 5:18-19, KJV) That is referring to the world’s people, friends of the world, in contrast to those born of God in v18.

7. Your logic is weird here, how can Rom. 6:16-17 be the context for 2 Cor. 4:4. Each has to be read in its own context!

8. In 2 Tim. 2:24ff, the passage is aimed to keep believers aware of those such as “Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,” in v17, as an example. Those who actively oppose the doctrines taught by the pastors. Again, your logic escapes me how you connect this to 1 Tim. 2:3-4

9. Why you seemed to include this since here we do actually seem to agree.

10. “ Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” (Rom 7:24-8:4 NRSV)

The only sinless perfection seen here, is the perfection of Christ Jesus, who is our righteousness, those of us in Christ:

“So no place is left for any human pride in the presence of God. By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’” (1Cor 1:29-31, REB)

 

[homwardbound]

Yes, God saves sinners who repent and accept Jesus as Messiah & Lord incarnate. God initiates; sinners may repent--or not.
Yes, God does not show favoritism by electing only some and condemning the rest to hell.
Yes, Today is the day to choose to cooperate with God before time runs out.
Amen thrice!

Done!!!!!!!!!! by God, yes, yes, yes
Isaiah 6"1-7

 

[GWH]

Here is my reply to your 10 points, I'll follow up later with my verses for you to explain away:
1. In context, 1 Tim. 2:3-4 refers to all categories of men, not all men without exception.
2. A person is justified by Christ’s merit alone with no contribution from man. Yet, sanctification, the “working out your salvation” includes man’s participation, but it is guaranteed to be accomplished by God’s power 1 Thess.5:23
3. In 1 Tim. 2:3-4, it is not all without exception, it is only the categories of men who are included in the will here. I have myself used the phrase God’s “permissive will” at times, but I prefer to refer to God’s “preceptive will”, His commandments for man to obey, not his secret will:
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29, KJV)
4. Your approach to Dan 4:35; Ro 9:20; Psa 135:6 and Job 23:13 will result in universal salvation, none are lost. Clearly unbiblical.
5. We do not agree. First, where do you find “the age of accountability’ in Scripture. Second, “From my birth I have been evil, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” (Ps 51:5, REB) Or do you deny “original sin”, Adam’s sin declared upon all humans regardless of age.
6. “world” has several meanings in Scripture, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1John 5:18-19, KJV) That is referring to the world’s people, friends of the world, in contrast to those born of God in v18.
7. Your logic is weird here, how can Rom. 6:16-17 be the context for 2 Cor. 4:4. Each has to be read in its own context!
8. In 2 Tim. 2:24ff, the passage is aimed to keep believers aware of those such as “Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,” in v17, as an example. Those who actively oppose the doctrines taught by the pastors. Again, your logic escapes me how you connect this to 1 Tim. 2:3-4
9. Why you seemed to include this since here we do actually seem to agree.
10. “ Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” (Rom 7:24-8:4 NRSV)
The only sinless perfection seen here, is the perfection of Christ Jesus, who is our righteousness, those of us in Christ:
“So no place is left for any human pride in the presence of God. By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’” (1Cor 1:29-31, REB)

Thanks for your opinions regarding the first 10 points. Here are my comments:

1. In context, 1 Tim. 2:3-4 refers to all categories of men, not all men without exception.
GWH - Please cite the verses you think are the context that implies it refers only to categories, because 2:1-2 & 5-7 certainly do not.

2. A person is justified by Christ’s merit alone with no contribution from man. Yet, sanctification, the “working out your salvation” includes man’s participation, but it is guaranteed to be accomplished by God’s power 1 Thess.5:23
GWH - Agreed; I indicate this truth via the slogan, "God initiates; sinners cooperate--or not."

3. In 1 Tim. 2:3-4, it is not all without exception, it is only the categories of men who are included in the will here. I have myself used the phrase God’s “permissive will” at times, but I prefer to refer to God’s “preceptive will”, His commandments for man to obey, not his secret will:
GWH - Same as #1.

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29, KJV)
GWH - okay.

4. Your approach to Dan 4:35; Ro 9:20; Psa 135:6 and Job 23:13 will result in universal salvation, none are lost. Clearly unbiblical.
GWH - My approach interprets the OT passages you cited in light of what Paul wrote in Romans 9:20, which teaches that God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants. We believe God wants to save everyone, but not everyone wants to be saved. How is this unbiblical, even vaguely?

5. We do not agree. First, where do you find “the age of accountability’ in Scripture. Second, “From my birth I have been evil, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” (Ps 51:5, REB) Or do you deny “original sin”, Adam’s sin declared upon all humans regardless of age.
GWH - You say we do not agree that Genesis 8:21 says that God will not destroy life on earth again (even though every human sins when they attain the age of accountability). The age of accountability is indicated by the phrase "from his youth". Psalm 51:5 means that everyone has a sinful/selfish nature; babies are demanding and inconsiderate of their parents.

6. “world” has several meanings in Scripture, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1John 5:18-19, KJV) That is referring to the world’s people, friends of the world, in contrast to those born of God in v18.
GWH - I still agree.

7. Your logic is weird here, how can Rom. 6:16-17 be the context for 2 Cor. 4:4. Each has to be read in its own context!
GWH - Actually, ideally each verse has to be understood in the context of the whole truth/GW. What is weird is NOT harmonizing what Paul says in one epistle with what he shares in others.

8. In 2 Tim. 2:24ff, the passage is aimed to keep believers aware of those such as “Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,” in v17, as an example. Those who actively oppose the doctrines taught by the pastors. Again, your logic escapes me how you connect this to 1 Tim. 2:3-4
GWH - How can "gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth" (2TM 2:25b) NOT be connected with "God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2:4)?!

9. Why you seemed to include this since here we do actually seem to agree.
GWH - I love it when we agree! I hope we will agree regarding the other 9 items.

10. “ Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” (Rom 7:24-8:4 NRSV)
The only sinless perfection seen here, is the perfection of Christ Jesus, who is our righteousness, those of us in Christ:
GWH - I agree again. Yay!

“So no place is left for any human pride in the presence of God. By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’” (1Cor 1:29-31, REB)
GWH - This P.S. is problematic because you omitted what you included previously: "man’s participation".

Do you want to reply one more time before we move on to the next ten?

 

[Jon777]

Thanks for your opinions regarding the first 10 points. Here are my comments:

1. In context, 1 Tim. 2:3-4 refers to all categories of men, not all men without exception.
GWH - Please cite the verses you think are the context that implies it refers only to categories, because 2:1-2 & 5-7 certainly do not.

2. A person is justified by Christ’s merit alone with no contribution from man. Yet, sanctification, the “working out your salvation” includes man’s participation, but it is guaranteed to be accomplished by God’s power 1 Thess.5:23
GWH - Agreed; I indicate this truth via the slogan, "God initiates; sinners cooperate--or not."

3. In 1 Tim. 2:3-4, it is not all without exception, it is only the categories of men who are included in the will here. I have myself used the phrase God’s “permissive will” at times, but I prefer to refer to God’s “preceptive will”, His commandments for man to obey, not his secret will:
GWH - Same as #1.

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29, KJV)
GWH - okay.

4. Your approach to Dan 4:35; Ro 9:20; Psa 135:6 and Job 23:13 will result in universal salvation, none are lost. Clearly unbiblical.
GWH - My approach interprets the OT passages you cited in light of what Paul wrote in Romans 9:20, which teaches that God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants. We believe God wants to save everyone, but not everyone wants to be saved. How is this unbiblical, even vaguely?

5. We do not agree. First, where do you find “the age of accountability’ in Scripture. Second, “From my birth I have been evil, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” (Ps 51:5, REB) Or do you deny “original sin”, Adam’s sin declared upon all humans regardless of age.
GWH - You say we do not agree that Genesis 8:21 says that God will not destroy life on earth again (even though every human sins when they attain the age of accountability). The age of accountability is indicated by the phrase "from his youth". Psalm 51:5 means that everyone has a sinful/selfish nature; babies are demanding and inconsiderate of their parents.

6. “world” has several meanings in Scripture, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1John 5:18-19, KJV) That is referring to the world’s people, friends of the world, in contrast to those born of God in v18.
GWH - I still agree.

7. Your logic is weird here, how can Rom. 6:16-17 be the context for 2 Cor. 4:4. Each has to be read in its own context!
GWH - Actually, ideally each verse has to be understood in the context of the whole truth/GW. What is weird is NOT harmonizing what Paul says in one epistle with what he shares in others.

8. In 2 Tim. 2:24ff, the passage is aimed to keep believers aware of those such as “Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,” in v17, as an example. Those who actively oppose the doctrines taught by the pastors. Again, your logic escapes me how you connect this to 1 Tim. 2:3-4
GWH - How can "gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth" (2TM 2:25b) NOT be connected with "God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2:4)?!

9. Why you seemed to include this since here we do actually seem to agree.
GWH - I love it when we agree! I hope we will agree regarding the other 9 items.

10. “ Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” (Rom 7:24-8:4 NRSV)
The only sinless perfection seen here, is the perfection of Christ Jesus, who is our righteousness, those of us in Christ:
GWH - I agree again. Yay!

“So no place is left for any human pride in the presence of God. By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’” (1Cor 1:29-31, REB)
GWH - This P.S. is problematic because you omitted what you included previously: "man’s participation".

Do you want to reply one more time before we move on to the next ten?

Those who deny God’s sovereign election by his own free will, struggle with these:

“just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will,” (Eph 1:4-5 NRSVue)

“and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.” (Rev 13:8 NRSVue)
Compared with
“The beast that you saw was and is not and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.” (Rev 17:8 NRSVue)

**Reading carefully Eph. 1:4-5, Rev. 13:8 & 17:8 it is clear the believers had been chosen “to be holy and blameless”, not because they were, by God before the foundation of the world, and it is “names” written in the book of life, individuals. Unconditional election is of individuals.

“You were dead through the trespasses and sins… even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Eph 2:1, 5 NRSVue)

** Paul writes “you were dead” and “we were dead”; this is DEAD, not Sick! Only by God’s sovereign act can the spiritually dead be quickened, brought to life.

“Then both Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you reject it and judge yourselves to be unworthy of eternal life, we are now turning to the gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, ‘I have set you to be a light for the gentiles, so that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ” When the gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord, and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.” (Act 13:46-48 NRSVue)

The Jews themselves had rejected the gospel therefore judging themselves unworthy of life. When Paul turned to the Gentiles, it as many as had been destined!

**You can find this translated ordained, destined, pre-destined, appointed; but you will have a have a hard time finding this translated “as many as had been disposed”! Even if it were disposed, which it is not, who gave them that disposition?

It is interesting to read the far-fetched reasoning usually given to deny those clear statements.

IMPORTANT – Man does not participate in his REGENERATION, QUICKENING and in his justification, because Rom. 4:25 says were justified when Jesus was raised from the dead.

Man participates in his SANCTIFICATION, and is given the will and the power to do so by God, Phil 2:12-13.

YOU INTRODUCE A SALVATION BY WORKS BY MIXING SANCTIFICATION INTO JUSTIFICATION AS THE ROMAN CATHOLICS DO. THIS WAS A MAJOR POINT IN THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION. THE ELECT ARE MANIFESTLY JUSTIFIED THROUGH FAITH ALONE!

 

[GWH]

Those who deny God’s sovereign election by his own free will, struggle with these:

“just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will,” (Eph 1:4-5 NRSVue)

“and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.” (Rev 13:8 NRSVue)
Compared with
“The beast that you saw was and is not and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.” (Rev 17:8 NRSVue)

**Reading carefully Eph. 1:4-5, Rev. 13:8 & 17:8 it is clear the believers had been chosen “to be holy and blameless”, not because they were, by God before the foundation of the world, and it is “names” written in the book of life, individuals. Unconditional election is of individuals.

“You were dead through the trespasses and sins… even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Eph 2:1, 5 NRSVue)

** Paul writes “you were dead” and “we were dead”; this is DEAD, not Sick! Only by God’s sovereign act can the spiritually dead be quickened, brought to life.

“Then both Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you reject it and judge yourselves to be unworthy of eternal life, we are now turning to the gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, ‘I have set you to be a light for the gentiles, so that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ” When the gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord, and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.” (Act 13:46-48 NRSVue)

The Jews themselves had rejected the gospel therefore judging themselves unworthy of life. When Paul turned to the Gentiles, it as many as had been destined!

**You can find this translated ordained, destined, pre-destined, appointed; but you will have a have a hard time finding this translated “as many as had been disposed”! Even if it were disposed, which it is not, who gave them that disposition?

It is interesting to read the far-fetched reasoning usually given to deny those clear statements.

IMPORTANT – Man does not participate in his REGENERATION, QUICKENING and in his justification, because Rom. 4:25 says were justified when Jesus was raised from the dead.

Man participates in his SANCTIFICATION, and is given the will and the power to do so by God, Phil 2:12-13.

YOU INTRODUCE A SALVATION BY WORKS BY MIXING SANCTIFICATION INTO JUSTIFICATION AS THE ROMAN CATHOLICS DO. THIS WAS A MAJOR POINT IN THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION. THE ELECT ARE MANIFESTLY JUSTIFIED THROUGH FAITH ALONE!

I am glad you discuss doctrinal differences politely and supply Scripture.
I will reply as before by numbering the items for easier reference.

1. “just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will,” (Eph 1:4-5 NRSVue)
GWH - In the this passage we can see that what the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1Tim. 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2Thes. 2:10).

2. “and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.” (Rev 13:8 NRSVue) Compared with “The beast that you saw was and is not and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.” (Rev 17:8 NRSVue)
GWH – It was just pointed out to me on another thread that references to the book of life in Rev. 13:8 & 17:8 should be understood in light of Rev. 3:5, which indicates that everyone’s name is in the book or saved until/unless they disqualify themselves (cf. John 3:16-18).

3. “You were dead through the trespasses and sins… even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Eph 2:1, 5 NRSVue)
GWH - I agree, but do not omit “through or because of” faith (Eph. 2:8-9). God is able to resurrect the dead!

4. “Then both Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you reject it and judge yourselves to be unworthy of eternal life, we are now turning to the gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, ‘I have set you to be a light for the gentiles, so that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ” When the gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord, and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.” (Act 13:46-48 NRSVue)
GWH – we see in this passage reference to the disqualification I mentioned in #2.

5. Man does not participate in his REGENERATION, QUICKENING and in his justification, because Rom. 4:25 says were justified when Jesus was raised from the dead.
GWH – and the rest of Romans 4 describes how Abraham participated and was justified by faith.

6. Man participates in his SANCTIFICATION, and is given the will and the power to do so by God, Phil 2:12-13.
GWH - Sanctification begins with conversion and ends with resurrection and is given the will power
to do so—or not (per the 16 Scriptures contradicting OSAS).

7. YOU INTRODUCE A SALVATION BY WORKS BY MIXING SANCTIFICATION INTO JUSTIFICATION AS THE ROMAN CATHOLICS DO. THIS WAS A MAJOR POINT IN THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION. THE ELECT ARE MANIFESTLY JUSTIFIED THROUGH FAITH ALONE!
GWH – No, because faith is not meritorious from beginning to end. There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace.

Comments? Or should I respond to more of the The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination ?

 

[Jon777]

Superficial, on the surface proof texting, is not Bible study. I will show why the passage popular with an Arminian, 1 Ti 2:1-4, does NOT teach all men without exception, but all sorts or categories. Let the Arminian prove that “all men” here means all individuals without exception. I’ll now prove it is NOT all men without exception.

“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (1Tim 2:1-4, KJV)

The “all men” stated in the 1st half of the sentence in v1; in the 2nd half of the sentence in v2 is shown to be 3 categories or sorts of men: “kings”; and “all that are in authority” and then the “we subjects”, who can live in peace having good leaders heading up church and nation. The NT also mentions one category or sort of men for which we are NOT to pray, “There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.” (1 Jn. 5:16) Can anyone imagine Christians praying for Joseph Stalin the ruthless Communist dictator, or Mao in China, likewise ruthless Communist, or Adolf Hitler with his wicked concentration camps. We are to pray for those wicked people who certainly have committed “a sin unto death”??

Then how do we view the word “all” in various contexts? The Random House Unabridged Dictionary gives 8 definitions for “all”, and the one that fits here is “4. Every: all kinds; all sorts”, so the understanding I gave above is not twisting an English definition. But... is “all” in the Bible always meant to mean without exception, or unrestricted? It appears not:

“But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.” (Mark 11:32, KJV) *John’s head was cut off, so this “all men” certainly was not without exception, or unrestricted.

Other verses where “all” does NOT mean every individual without exception: Mark 1:5; Acts 4:21; Luke 21:17, John 12:32 for examples.

In v4 we have “Who will have all men to be saved”. If God willed all individuals without exception to be saved, NONE would be lost and you’d have universal salvation. But doesn't what God wills happen without exception? Is God’s will thwarted by any and canceled?

“And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” (Dan 4:35, KJV)

“Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.” (Ps 135:6, KJV)

“But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.”(Job 23:13, KJV)

The 3 verses quoted show that what God wills or desires comes true by his decree, so if “all men” is defined as all without exception or restriction, you have universal salvation, none are lost. That is basic reading comprehension, and throwing about theological terminology is no substitute for knowing how to study the Bible.

God's truth about salvation can be shown clearly in simple language, so beware of those who spend so much verbiage in trying to refute simple biblical statements. In this study I have gone to the teachers God gave the church, Eph. 4:11; and the church, which is the “pillar and ground of the truth”, 1 Tim. 3:15. I researched through Bible teachers and scholars of the church This is how you can decide false doctrines and deceptions.

 

[GWH]

Superficial, on the surface proof texting, is not Bible study. I will show why the passage popular with an Arminian, 1 Ti 2:1-4, does NOT teach all men without exception, but all sorts or categories. Let the Arminian prove that “all men” here means all individuals without exception. I’ll now prove it is NOT all men without exception.

“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (1Tim 2:1-4, KJV)

The “all men” stated in the 1st half of the sentence in v1; in the 2nd half of the sentence in v2 is shown to be 3 categories or sorts of men: “kings”; and “all that are in authority” and then the “we subjects”, who can live in peace having good leaders heading up church and nation. The NT also mentions one category or sort of men for which we are NOT to pray, “There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.” (1 Jn. 5:16) Can anyone imagine Christians praying for Joseph Stalin the ruthless Communist dictator, or Mao in China, likewise ruthless Communist, or Adolf Hitler with his wicked concentration camps. We are to pray for those wicked people who certainly have committed “a sin unto death”??

Then how do we view the word “all” in various contexts? The Random House Unabridged Dictionary gives 8 definitions for “all”, and the one that fits here is “4. Every: all kinds; all sorts”, so the understanding I gave above is not twisting an English definition. But... is “all” in the Bible always meant to mean without exception, or unrestricted? It appears not:

“But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.” (Mark 11:32, KJV) *John’s head was cut off, so this “all men” certainly was not without exception, or unrestricted.

Other verses where “all” does NOT mean every individual without exception: Mark 1:5; Acts 4:21; Luke 21:17, John 12:32 for examples.

In v4 we have “Who will have all men to be saved”. If God willed all individuals without exception to be saved, NONE would be lost and you’d have universal salvation. But doesn't what God wills happen without exception? Is God’s will thwarted by any and canceled?

“And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” (Dan 4:35, KJV)

“Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.” (Ps 135:6, KJV)

“But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.”(Job 23:13, KJV)

The 3 verses quoted show that what God wills or desires comes true by his decree, so if “all men” is defined as all without exception or restriction, you have universal salvation, none are lost. That is basic reading comprehension, and throwing about theological terminology is no substitute for knowing how to study the Bible.

God's truth about salvation can be shown clearly in simple language, so beware of those who spend so much verbiage in trying to refute simple biblical statements. In this study I have gone to the teachers God gave the church, Eph. 4:11; and the church, which is the “pillar and ground of the truth”, 1 Tim. 3:15. I researched through Bible teachers and scholars of the church This is how you can decide false doctrines and deceptions.

I will reply using the same method as previously.

1. Superficial, on the surface proof texting, is not Bible study. I will show why the passage popular with an Arminian, 1 Ti 2:1-4, does NOT teach all men without exception, but all sorts or categories… The “all men” stated in the 1st half of the sentence in v1; in the 2nd half of the sentence in v2 is shown to be 3 categories or sorts of men: “kings”; and “all that are in authority” and then the “we subjects”, who can live in peace having good leaders heading up church and nation.
GWH – I agree that 1Tim. 2:1-2 means to pray for everyone, including kings and other rulers, so that they may govern in accordance with Rom. 13:3a (“Rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong”) and thus allow Christians to live peaceful lives.

2. The NT also mentions one category or sort of men for which we are NOT to pray, “There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.” (1 Jn. 5:16) …for those wicked people who certainly have committed “a sin unto death”.
GWH – I agree that 1John 5:16 says not to pray for such sinners. Apparently he distinguishes between venial and moratl sins, akin to what Paul said in 1Cor. 6:9-10, “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

3. Then how do we view the word “all” in various contexts? The Random House Unabridged Dictionary gives 8 definitions for “all”, and the one that fits here is “4. Every: all kinds; all sorts”, so the understanding I gave above is not twisting an English definition. But... is “all” in the Bible always meant to mean without exception, or unrestricted? It appears not…
GWH – I agree that “all” does not always mean without exception, such as the verses you cited: Mark 1:5, 11:32, Acts 4:21 & Luke 21:17. However, I think John 12:32 is in the same vein as 1Tim. 2:3-4, “God will have all men to be saved”.

4. If God willed all individuals without exception to be saved, NONE would be lost and you’d have universal salvation. But doesn't what God wills happen without exception? Is God’s will thwarted by any and canceled?
GWH – God’s intentional will has always been that no one would sin but that all would be saved, but His permissive will allows souls to sin and to repent of sin and be saved by accepting Messiah as Lord. The 3 verses quoted indicate that what God wills or intends desires comes true by his decree, and His decree includes His plan of salvation—which does NOT imply universal salvation.

5. God's truth about salvation can be shown clearly in simple language, so beware of those who spend so much verbiage in trying to refute simple biblical statements. In this study I have gone to the teachers God gave the church, Eph. 4:11; and the church, which is the “pillar and ground of the truth”, 1 Tim. 3:15. I researched through Bible teachers and scholars of the church This is how you can decide false doctrines and deceptions.
GWH – We discern between truth and falsehood by testing all Scripture and harmonizing rather than proof-texting various verses.

And I close with the same question as asked previously.
(P.S. I hope you are enjoying practicing dialectical theology as much as I am. BTW, this method was popularized by Karl Barth,
who was a Reformed theologian but did not affirm TULIP.)

 

[Jon777]

I will reply using the same method as previously.

1. Superficial, on the surface proof texting, is not Bible study. I will show why the passage popular with an Arminian, 1 Ti 2:1-4, does NOT teach all men without exception, but all sorts or categories… The “all men” stated in the 1st half of the sentence in v1; in the 2nd half of the sentence in v2 is shown to be 3 categories or sorts of men: “kings”; and “all that are in authority” and then the “we subjects”, who can live in peace having good leaders heading up church and nation.
GWH – I agree that 1Tim. 2:1-2 means to pray for everyone, including kings and other rulers, so that they may govern in accordance with Rom. 13:3a (“Rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong”) and thus allow Christians to live peaceful lives.

2. The NT also mentions one category or sort of men for which we are NOT to pray, “There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.” (1 Jn. 5:16) …for those wicked people who certainly have committed “a sin unto death”.
GWH – I agree that 1John 5:16 says not to pray for such sinners. Apparently he distinguishes between venial and moratl sins, akin to what Paul said in 1Cor. 6:9-10, “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

3. Then how do we view the word “all” in various contexts? The Random House Unabridged Dictionary gives 8 definitions for “all”, and the one that fits here is “4. Every: all kinds; all sorts”, so the understanding I gave above is not twisting an English definition. But... is “all” in the Bible always meant to mean without exception, or unrestricted? It appears not…
GWH – I agree that “all” does not always mean without exception, such as the verses you cited: Mark 1:5, 11:32, Acts 4:21 & Luke 21:17. However, I think John 12:32 is in the same vein as 1Tim. 2:3-4, “God will have all men to be saved”.

4. If God willed all individuals without exception to be saved, NONE would be lost and you’d have universal salvation. But doesn't what God wills happen without exception? Is God’s will thwarted by any and canceled?
GWH – God’s intentional will has always been that no one would sin but that all would be saved, but His permissive will allows souls to sin and to repent of sin and be saved by accepting Messiah as Lord. The 3 verses quoted indicate that what God wills or intends desires comes true by his decree, and His decree includes His plan of salvation—which does NOT imply universal salvation.

5. God's truth about salvation can be shown clearly in simple language, so beware of those who spend so much verbiage in trying to refute simple biblical statements. In this study I have gone to the teachers God gave the church, Eph. 4:11; and the church, which is the “pillar and ground of the truth”, 1 Tim. 3:15. I researched through Bible teachers and scholars of the church This is how you can decide false doctrines and deceptions.
GWH – We discern between truth and falsehood by testing all Scripture and harmonizing rather than proof-texting various verses.

And I close with the same question as asked previously.
(P.S. I hope you are enjoying practicing dialectical theology as much as I am. BTW, this method was popularized by Karl Barth,
who was a Reformed theologian but did not affirm TULIP.)

Karl Barth was neo-orthodox, NOT a true Calvinist nor Reformed theologian. I'll stay with the John Gill, the Hodges, Dabney, Boyce, Dagg as theologians I'll use for serious doctrinal studies.

 

[homwardbound]

Karl Barth was neo-orthodox, NOT a true Calvinist nor Reformed theologian. I'll stay with the John Gill, the Hodges, Dabney, Boyce, Dagg as theologians I'll use for serious doctrinal studies.

Study truth of God, be willing to see new in mistakes made and learn from God's love to all with the mercy given.
Thanks for your view. As for me, I see to stand even through any and all adversities, no matter how it might appear
I have over the years watched God never forsake me or anyone, even though some or many might think God does or has
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

If God be a tyrant and is goi ng to get anyone for doing wrong, then it is over and we all dead. God sent Son to make us alive in God's Spirit and truth, are we willing to stand Col 1:21-23? I am, thank you Lord

 

[GWH]

Karl Barth was neo-orthodox, NOT a true Calvinist nor Reformed theologian. I'll stay with the John Gill, the Hodges, Dabney, Boyce, Dagg as theologians I'll use for serious doctrinal studies.

Re Karl Barth: I agree with his method, but I stay with no theologian, preferring to base my understanding on the Bible, and I
definitely disagree with the Presbyterians who affirm tulip, including Charles Hodge, R.L. Dabney and J.M. Boice.

Seeing no reply to my post #50, I will continue with the review of TRDOP.

11. It cited Psa. 143:2, Jer. 13:23 & 17:9, Job 14:4, Isa. 64:6 as OT forerunners of Rom. 5:12, 8:7 & Eph. 2:1, which teach that every
soul is a sinner before he/she repents. For a systematic study or Romans 1-11, please see Lesson 10 on our website.

12. 1Cor. 2:14 is also cited, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context and NT teaching. Here is relevant immediate context for that verse:

1Cor. 1:21b, “God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” Using Mag’s favorite terminology, God’s method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God desires all to believe.

1Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified… to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” Again, “We preach to all natural men”, and “to those natural men God has called”. This prompts the question: Is “desire” in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God’s “calling” in 1Cor. 1:24–and we might add with God’s “drawing” in John 12:32 and with God’s “invitation” in Matt. 22:14? The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God’s calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.

1Cor. 1:26, “Brothers, think of what you were when you were called… Not many were influential.” They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God’s calling.

1Cor. 1:27-28, “God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise… the lowly… and the despised”. God’s saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that “no one may boast before him” (1Cor. 1:29).

1Cor. 2:1-2, “When I came to you, brothers… I proclaimed to you… Jesus Christ and him crucified.” Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul’s preaching of the Gospel.

1Cor. 2:10, “God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.” God’s HS enables natural men to believe the Gospel and be saved (or not).

13. Next John 6:44 is cited, "No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day." Jesus provided the meaning of "drawn"" in verse 65: enabled. No one can believe in Jesus unless enabled by God. Additional context is found in John 8:28 & 12:32, which indicate that when Jesus is crucified by sinners, they will recognize he is God's Messiah and draw them to himself. However, passages such as John 3:18 show that not everyone will believe, so the conclusion must be that God initiates or wants everyone to be saved (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4), but souls may cooperate with Him by accepting Jesus as Messiah or not.

14. Next John 6:37 is cited, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away." Again, the Scriptures in Romans and John that have been cited indicate that God will give to Jesus all who repent and accept him as Messiah.

 

[homwardbound]

Re Karl Barth: I agree with his method, but I stay with no theologian, preferring to base my understanding on the Bible, and I
definitely disagree with the Presbyterians who affirm tulip, including Charles Hodge, R.L. Dabney and J.M. Boice.

Seeing no reply to my post #50, I will continue with the review of TRDOP.

11. It cited Psa. 143:2, Jer. 13:23 & 17:9, Job 14:4, Isa. 64:6 as OT forerunners of Rom. 5:12, 8:7 & Eph. 2:1, which teach that every
soul is a sinner before he/she repents. For a systematic study or Romans 1-11, please see Lesson 10 on our website.

12. 1Cor. 2:14 is also cited, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context and NT teaching. Here is relevant immediate context for that verse:

1Cor. 1:21b, “God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” Using Mag’s favorite terminology, God’s method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God desires all to believe.

1Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified… to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” Again, “We preach to all natural men”, and “to those natural men God has called”. This prompts the question: Is “desire” in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God’s “calling” in 1Cor. 1:24–and we might add with God’s “drawing” in John 12:32 and with God’s “invitation” in Matt. 22:14? The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God’s calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.

1Cor. 1:26, “Brothers, think of what you were when you were called… Not many were influential.” They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God’s calling.

1Cor. 1:27-28, “God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise… the lowly… and the despised”. God’s saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that “no one may boast before him” (1Cor. 1:29).

1Cor. 2:1-2, “When I came to you, brothers… I proclaimed to you… Jesus Christ and him crucified.” Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul’s preaching of the Gospel.

1Cor. 2:10, “God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.” God’s HS enables natural men to believe the Gospel and be saved (or not).

13. Next John 6:44 is cited, "No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day." Jesus provided the meaning of "drawn"" in verse 65: enabled. No one can believe in Jesus unless enabled by God. Additional context is found in John 8:28 & 12:32, which indicate that when Jesus is crucified by sinners, they will recognize he is God's Messiah and draw them to himself. However, passages such as John 3:18 show that not everyone will believe, so the conclusion must be that God initiates or wants everyone to be saved (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4), but souls may cooperate with Him by accepting Jesus as Messiah or not.

14. Next John 6:37 is cited, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away." Again, the Scriptures in Romans and John that have been cited indicate that God will give to Jesus all who repent and accept him as Messiah.

Therefore, All can be saved, yet what remains is: To believe God raised Son from the dead after that one time death first took away sin, all sin but unbelief to God in risen Son for them?
True or false thanks

 

[GWH]

Therefore, All can be saved, yet what remains is: To believe God raised Son from the dead after that one time death first took away sin, all sin but unbelief to God in risen Son for them?
True or false thanks

True, but the tulipists believe God shows favoritism by gracing only some sinners with irresistible saving faith (the I in TULIP) in the atonement of Christ, whereas mfwers believe God enables everyone to believe or gifts all with faith, but some choose to believe Satan instead of in the risen Son, because divine grace/will is resistible.

The purpose of this thread is to examine the arguments of the tulipists along with Scriptures they cite as support for their view,
and Jon777 prompted us to analyze the tulipist document called "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" (TRDOP). However, it
appears that he may have pooped out.

 

[GWH]

...So, let us look at the meaning of a verse that was cited in prooftext fashion on another thread and consider its context:
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." (Isa 65:17)

Some jump to the conclusion that this means we will not remember anything from the earth when we are resurrected,
but is this consistent with both the immediate context and with the NT?

Isaiah 65:1-7 indicates that the Lord chose to reveal himself to Israel, but they were obstinate and rejected His will,
so He will punish their disobedience. However, v. 8-10 says that not everyone will be destroyed but rather a remnant will
inherit the blessings when they seek the Lord. Isaiah 65:11-15 alternates between citing the blessings God's servants will be given
and the curses the evildoers will experience.

Isaiah 65:16 says that the past troubles will be forgiven and hidden from God's eyes.

Can anyone cite the NT passages that interpret this doctrine?
(Hint: at least one is in Romans.)

 

[biblestudent78]

Thanks for sharing The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (TRDOP) in posts #30-36, Jon. I will reply in the order received,
but in order to keep the discussion manageable, at this point/time I might omit elements that do not seem directly related
to the T in TULIP/Total Depravity. I will number the paragraphs in case that is helpful for your next reply.

1. You began by citing Acts 16:14, which says the Lord opened Lydia’s heart, apparently wanting to imply that the Lord does not want to open every persons heart, which is a false interpretation in light of 1Timothy 2:3-4, which indicates that God wants to open everyone’s heart—prompting the question, “why is everyone not like Lydia?” What is TRDOP’s answer?

2. Next you cited Phil. 2:12-13, which instructs Christians to work out their own salvation, because God works in them to desire and do his good will, so the question prompted by this is “how does working out one’s own salvation harmonize with God’s working within a person?” TRDOP’s answer?

3. Then you say that if 1Tim. 2:3-4 speaking of God’s intentional will is true, then salvation will be universal, overlooking/omitting God’s permissive will, which allows sinners to reject His grace.

4. You cited Daniel 4:35, which seems similar to what Paul wrote in Romans 9:20, so I will reply to that NT passage, which teaches that God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants. You cited Psalm 135:6 and Job 23:13 as also saying this. We who believe God wants to save everyone agree with this.

5. The next relevant Scripture you cited was Genesis 8:21, which says that God will not destroy life on earth again, even though every human sins when they attain the age of accountability. We agree.

6. 1John 5:19 is proof texted, but with verse 18 as context we can see that it means the whole world other than those born of God is under Satan’s control. We agree.

7. 2Cor. 4:4 says Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers. Romans 6:16-17 provides context for this prooftext enabling us to see that we are slaves to the one we choose to obey. Do you agree?

8. You cited 2Tim. 2:24-26, which teaches that Christians must not quarrel, but instead hope that God will lead them to repent, come to know the truth and be saved, echoing 1Tim. 2:3-4. Hope you agree.

9. Romans 3:10-12 says that no one is righteous or seeks God. The meaning of this quote is stated by Paul: Both Jews and Gentiles are sinners in need of God’s salvation. We agree.

10. Romans 7:18 is cited for calling sinful desires the “sinful nature”, which wars against desire to do good or obey God’s will, and Rom. 7:19-8:1 says the war can be won by those who are IN Christ. Agreed?

I this is enough for one whack at a reply. Let us see how Jon is taking this exercise in dialectical theology.

Over.

If we use the Bible as a weegie board picking and choosing our "proof texts" we are not interested in the Bible but in a library of documents from which we can "extract" meaning based on our predetermined dogmas. Note the above. My proof texts vs your proof texts. We can justify anything and everything no matter what because we can spin the Google wheel to "prove" our predetermined dogmas are "right."

In choosing a "version of the bible" that can be used to confirm our dogmas we further have unlimited theology options....thus 25,000 different and competing Christian dogmas.

For instance, if you use the Genesis 8:21 but fail to note that just like any other human being, God loves the "smell" of burning flesh. This is a theme in the OT. Human writers try to convince all that God is just like us but more powerful. He"loves the smell of barbeque."

You site 1 John 5 but miss the BIG theological imperative: You can get forgiveness for others who sin just by asking God to forgive them. "If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that. All unrighteousness is sin, but there is sin not resulting in death.

You quote second Corinthians 4, but misrepresent the text. Therefore, since we have this ministry, just as God has shown us mercy, we do not become discouraged. But we have rejected shameful hidden deeds, not behaving with deceptiveness or distorting the word of God, but by open proclamation of the truth we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience before God. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing, among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God. Those whose who cannot see the gospel are blinded by the"god" of that age. We were all blinded to the gospel of Christ before our eyes were opened. There is no "god" stopping us and never was. Those who worshipped idols had the hardest time conceptualizing a spiritual God so their devotion to idols blinded them. Today those who have idols of wealth, prestige, pleasure, politics and perversion suffer the same fate. Their "gods" prevent them from seeing, but if they were predestined to be saved, their earthly lives do not matter.

Galatians 1. A better translation. 3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,a 4 who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Romans 3:10-18 Paul is quoting an Old Testament Psalm 36:1. He believes the Old Testament is still the arbiter of human behavior as he quotes the Old Testament over 80 times in the book of Romans.

And on it goes. Since 1517 these doctrines, creeds, dogmas and blizzards of competing "proof texts" snippets are used "prove" the three legged stool of 16th Century Christianity. Using snippets and proof texts without any effort to see the redemptive work of God in humanity but only to "validate" Luther, et al. If all mankind is totally depraved then God made us this way or God is not as powerful as Satan who owns God's creation against God's will. We designate as "Saints" those God chose before the world was created. They are perfect in His eyes no matter how perverted, murderous and evil they are just because God decided "in the beginning" who will spend eternity in hell which, as it turns out is almost every human who ever lived. With this theology it is small wonder 21st Century Christianity is collapsing with between 3,500 and 7,000 Christian churches permanently closing their doors every year in America. It would appear that God has His tiny predestined remnant and 21st Century Christianity is just waking up to the fact they have no hope if God did not choose them long before they were born. Jesus did not have to die on the cross because God had already chosen who He would save and the rest had no hope.

They are further discouraged because they see the lives of those who claim God predestined them and will elevate them without regard to their earth depravity, malignancy, willful sin and evil hearts.

 

[GWH]

If we use the Bible as a weegie board picking and choosing our "proof texts" we are not interested in the Bible but in a library of documents from which we can "extract" meaning based on our predetermined dogmas. Note the above. My proof texts vs your proof texts. We can justify anything and everything no matter what because we can spin the Google wheel to "prove" our predetermined dogmas are "right."

In choosing a "version of the bible" that can be used to confirm our dogmas we further have unlimited theology options....thus 25,000 different and competing Christian dogmas.

For instance, if you use the Genesis 8:21 but fail to note that just like any other human being, God loves the "smell" of burning flesh. This is a theme in the OT. Human writers try to convince all that God is just like us but more powerful. He"loves the smell of barbeque."

You site 1 John 5 but miss the BIG theological imperative: You can get forgiveness for others who sin just by asking God to forgive them. "If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that. All unrighteousness is sin, but there is sin not resulting in death.

You quote second Corinthians 4, but misrepresent the text. Therefore, since we have this ministry, just as God has shown us mercy, we do not become discouraged. But we have rejected shameful hidden deeds, not behaving with deceptiveness or distorting the word of God, but by open proclamation of the truth we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience before God. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing, among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God.

Those whose who cannot see the gospel are blinded by the "god" of that age. We were all blinded to the gospel of Christ before our eyes were opened. There is no "god" stopping us and never was. Those who worshipped idols had the hardest time conceptualizing a spiritual God so their devotion to idols blinded them. Today those who have idols of wealth, prestige, pleasure, politics and perversion suffer the same fate. Their "gods" prevent them from seeing, but if they were predestined to be saved, their earthly lives do not matter.

Galatians 1. A better translation. 3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,a 4 who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Romans 3:10-18 Paul is quoting an Old Testament Psalm 36:1. He believes the Old Testament is still the arbiter of human behavior as he quotes the Old Testament over 80 times in the book of Romans.

And on it goes. Since 1517 these doctrines, creeds, dogmas and blizzards of competing "proof texts" snippets are used "prove" the three legged stool of 16th Century Christianity. Using snippets and proof texts without any effort to see the redemptive work of God in humanity but only to "validate" Luther, et al. If all mankind is totally depraved then God made us this way or God is not as powerful as Satan who owns God's creation against God's will. We designate as "Saints" those God chose before the world was created. They are perfect in His eyes no matter how perverted, murderous and evil they are just because God decided "in the beginning" who will spend eternity in hell which, as it turns out is almost every human who ever lived. With this theology it is small wonder 21st Century Christianity is collapsing with between 3,500 and 7,000 Christian churches permanently closing their doors every year in America. It would appear that God has His tiny predestined remnant and 21st Century Christianity is just waking up to the fact they have no hope if God did not choose them long before they were born. Jesus did not have to die on the cross because God had already chosen who He would save and the rest had no hope.

They are further discouraged because they see the lives of those who claim God predestined them and will elevate them without regard to their earth depravity, malignancy, willful sin and evil hearts.

Yes, our goal/desire should be to learn ultimate truth/the best interpretation of GW rather than to win an argument.
We should consider various versions/translations of the Scriptures rather than engaging in bibliolatry by idolizing one,
and we should base our understanding of GW on the NT and interpret OT passages in light of the NT when they conflict.
However, even NT verses should not be cited out of context, especially those that are problematic, such as 1 John 5:16.

You said I misrepresented 2Cor. 4:4 but did not explain how I did such by saying "if they were predestined to be saved,
their earthly lives do not matter". Do you understand Gal. 1:3-5 as teaching Christ atoned for the sins of all humanity?

Regarding Rom. 3:10-18, Paul quoted Psalm 36:1 to teach that all have sinned and need salvation, in Rom. 3:19-20 Paul noted
that the OT law makes people become aware of their sins, and in Rom. 3:21-5:1 Paul reveals that the Gospel is the "arbiter"
of human salvation.

Regarding the history of beliefs since Luther began the Protestant Reformation, it sounds like you disagree
with Calvin's TULIP dogma, and I agree with you.

 

[Magenta]

Luther began the Protestant Reformation

Not true. Key figures who predated Martin Luther and laid groundwork for the Reformation include
John Wycliffe (England, c. 1329–1384, known as the "Morning Star of the Reformation") and Jan Hus
(c. 1369–1415), who championed Scripture, preached reform, opposed indulgences, challenged papal
authority, and criticized church abuses, with Hus directly influencing Luther. He was burned as a heretic.
Others: Peter Waldo (c. 1329–1384), Girolamo Savonarola (1452–1498), and Gutenberg's printing press.

 

[GWH]

Not true. Key figures who predated Martin Luther and laid groundwork for the Reformation include
John Wycliffe (England, c. 1329–1384, known as the "Morning Star of the Reformation") and Jan Hus
(c. 1369–1415), who championed Scripture, preached reform, opposed indulgences, challenged papal
authority, and criticized church abuses, with Hus directly influencing Luther. He was burned as a heretic.
Others: Peter Waldo (c. 1329–1384), Girolamo Savonarola (1452–1498), and Gutenberg's printing press.

Yes, the folks you cited laid groundwork for the Protestant Reformation,
which is deemed by most historians to have begun when Frederick the Wise,
(aka Frederick III, Elector of Saxony) protected Martin Luther from following in the footsteps of Hus et.al.

IOW, both my statement and yours are true, so you should stop with the "either-or" divisive default,
and pray for the gift of harmonization of two truths (and synthesis of disparate Scriptures).