Resolving Problematic Interpretations of Scripture

[Pilgrimshope]

This is incomplete reasoning because receiving the forgiveness that Christ paid for depends on becoming a participant in the covenant that removes sins. The price was paid for all. but many choose not to accept that debt relief

Reminds me of a parable Jesus taught about debt relief and God the father

“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his Lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the Lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.


But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their Lord all that was done. Then his Lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.


( now the lesson ) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:21-35‬ ‭

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


If we look to Jesus words rather than Moses words the light turns on. We’re all guilty already of sin in some way Jesus has already paid the price and become the propitiation for sin . Now we have a better word to believe and walk according to one of mercy and forgivness patience and compassion all
In his name.

being merciful and compassionate towards people with our words and actions helping people when we can , not harming people or taking but helping and giving ect this is our call because we failed the “ be holy as I am holy “ test when we sinned once . Now we’re called to Be merciful because he is merciful and forgiving because he is forgiving to extend a helping hand because he did to treat other humans properly is not too tall A task for us .

to acknowledge our wrongs and repent when we mess up isnt to much of a task and chore . Just to live productive and decent lives and not harm People forgive and help whenever we can kindness mercy peace brotherhood ……that upholds the law of God and was always the intent or man’s reformation

swords into plowshares wars into peace hate into love theft into gift giving lies into truth death into salvation and eternal life killing into helping adultery into faithfulness coventing into contentment . Worship of idols
And false dieties and fables of corrupted mankind …..into knowledge of and worship of the one true and only God

 

[GWH]

This is the first time I have heard of TULIP, at first glance I do not agree and or understand from the perspective of my beliefs.
I will take a closer look.
what are you looking for, reasons or a scriptures, for or against?

As stated in the OP, "Many pastors either avoid these issues or else mention only their viewpoint, but this thread will share both sides of the issue, trying to resolve conflict in accordance with what Paul wrote (in Phil. 3:15b-16), “…If on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.”

Jon shared the tulip side politely with supporting Scriptures in post #14.
At that point we awaited the mfw side to chime in, which tablet did in #17 & 18.

At that point perhaps it should be stated that our purpose as seekers of unity regarding truth is NOT to win arguments,
but to evaluate the information and learn which belief is better--which might be a synthesis of the two that produces a third view.

I note that you employed logic combined with Scripture in #20, which we all can consider.

 

[GWH]

...And which prompted Pilgrim to share a parable for our consideration.

 

[NightTwister]

It's been so long since we had a thread on this topic...

 

[GWH]

It's been so long since we had a thread on this topic...

...You said, meaning the opposite, which is why I said in the OP that this thread will consider this topic in a way that does not duplicate other threads, but instead politely present Scripture interpreted holistically or in context. Please share your substantive opinion (perhaps cut and pasted from another thread) regarding this subject for consideration.

 

[NightTwister]

...You said, meaning the opposite, which is why I said in the OP that this thread will consider this topic in a way that does not duplicate other threads, but instead politely present Scripture interpreted holistically or in context. Please share your substantive opinion (perhaps cut and pasted from another thread) regarding this subject for consideration.

Over 13K comments? It's been covered ad nauseum.

 

[GWH]

Over 13K comments? It's been covered ad nauseum.

If you think playing verbal ping-pong is covering the subject, the Lord has more to teach you about hermeneutics,
so please read every post on this thread and then post substantive comments or pose serious questions. Thanks.

 

[NightTwister]

If you think playing verbal ping-pong is covering the subject, the Lord has more to teach you about hermeneutics,
so please read every post on this thread and then post substantive comments or pose serious questions. Thanks.

Best of luck.

 

[GWH]

At this point there have been three main posts discussing tulip vs. mfw:

1. timf posted #8 citing Scripture supporting mfw,
2. Jon777 posted #14 citing Scripture supporting tulip,
3. tablet123 posted #17 & 18 citing Scripture supporting mfw.

Mfw wins, 2 to 1.
(Just kidding :^)

I will try to collate the three posts into one coherent discussion. Perhaps it will work if we consider one letter of tulip at a time.

Regarding total depravity:

1. timf - Rom. 10:17, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." This indicates that a soul/sinner/person who
has the opportunity to hear the Gospel will be able to believe it.
2. Jon777 - "You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient." (Eph. 2:1-2)
3. tablet123 - 1Tim. 2:3-4, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
1Tim. 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."
2Pet. 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Rev. 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

Besides collating the posts, my role will be attempting to harmonize the Scriptures, so here is my commentary regarding T,
which involves paraphrasing.

2. Before learning God's revelation, normal human adults sin/disobey God's moral will and are spiritually dead/unsaved,
1. But when they have the opportunity to hear the Gospel, they may choose to believe it or not, although
3. God's intentional will is for everyone to believe the truth and be saved, not desiring for anyone to reject Him and be damned,
but for whosoever to be willing to cooperate with Him. [cf. Matt. 23:37]

Comments before I proceed with U?

 

[Jon777]

At this point there have been three main posts discussing tulip vs. mfw:

1. timf posted #8 citing Scripture supporting mfw,
2. Jon777 posted #14 citing Scripture supporting tulip,
3. tablet123 posted #17 & 18 citing Scripture supporting mfw.

Mfw wins, 2 to 1.
(Just kidding :^)

I will try to collate the three posts into one coherent discussion. Perhaps it will work if we consider one letter of tulip at a time.

Regarding total depravity:

1. timf - Rom. 10:17, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." This indicates that a soul/sinner/person who
has the opportunity to hear the Gospel will be able to believe it.
2. Jon777 - "You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient." (Eph. 2:1-2)
3. tablet123 - 1Tim. 2:3-4, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
1Tim. 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."
2Pet. 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Rev. 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

Besides collating the posts, my role will be attempting to harmonize the Scriptures, so here is my commentary regarding T,
which involves paraphrasing.

2. Before learning God's revelation, normal human adults sin/disobey God's moral will and are spiritually dead/unsaved,
1. But when they have the opportunity to hear the Gospel, they may choose to believe it or not, although
3. God's intentional will is for everyone to believe the truth and be saved, not desiring for anyone to reject Him and be damned,
but for whosoever to be willing to cooperate with Him. [cf. Matt. 23:37]

Comments before I proceed with U?

How does a man spiritually dead in his sins, believe the gospel? How did he get that belief, his faith? "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:14, KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil 2:12-13, KJV)

IF, as you say, "God's intentional will is for everyone to believe the truth and be saved ", you will have universal salvation, none will be lost.

God's Will of Decree, what He does, even if He does it through the human will -
Over All:
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does what he wills with the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can stay his hand or say to him, “What are you doing?” (Dan 4:35, NRSV)
Whatever the LORD pleases he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. (Ps 135:6, NRSV)
But he stands alone and who can dissuade him? What he desires, that he does. (Job 23:13, NRSV)
Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, (Rom 9:11, NRSV)

Over Sin:
Even though you intended to do harm to me, God intended it for good, in order to preserve a numerous people, as he is doing today. (Gen 50:20, NRSV)
this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law. (Acts 2:23, NRSV)
For in this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27-28, NRSV)
For the Son of Man is going as it has been determined, but woe to that one by whom he is betrayed!” (Luke 22:22, NRSV)
The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, all that he has is in your power; only do not stretch out your hand against him!” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. (Job 1:12, NRSV)

 

[Jon777]

Pervasive Evil has Infected the Whole Mass of Humanity, Total Depravity

Gen 8:21 NRSVue And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of humans, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from youth; nor will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.

1Jn 5:19 NRSVue We know that we are God’s children and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.

2Co 4:4 NRSVue In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing clearly the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2Ti 2:24-26 NRSVue And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, 25 correcting opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth 26 and that they may escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Gal 1:3-4 NRSVue Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to set us free from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

Rom 3:10-12 NRSVue as it is written: “There is no one who is righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who has understanding; there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness; there is not even one.”

Rom 7:18 NRSVue For I know that the good does not dwell within me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do the good lies close at hand, but not the ability.

Psa 143:2 NRSVue Do not enter into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.

Jer 17:9 NRSVue The heart is devious above all else; it is perverse— who can understand it?

Job 14:4 NRSVue Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one can.

Isa 64:6 NRSVue We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy cloth. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Jer 13:23 NRSVue Can Cushites change their skin or leopards their spots? Then also you can do good, who are accustomed to do evil.

Rom 5:12 NRSVue Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned—

Rom 8:7 NRSVue For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed, it cannot,

1Co 2:14 NRSVue Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
*KJV reads "the natural man" where the NRSVue reads "those who are unspiritual

Eph 2:1 NRSVue You were dead through the trespasses and sins

Joh 6:44 NRSVue No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day. * If you have a desire to know Jesus Christ and reach out to him, the next verse is a promise to you!!

Joh 6:37 NRSVue Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away,

 

[Jon777]

An All Powerful King has a Plan to Rescue His Subjects: Unconditional Election

Psa 65:4 NRSVue Happy are those whom you choose and bring near to live in your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, your holy temple.

Eph 1:4-6 NRSVue just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. 5 He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. *The Greek for chosen is "eklegomai" and means to choose out. It is the same word when Jesus said "I have chosen you out of the world" Jn 15:19. We were chosen "to be holy and blameless", not because we were foreseen as somehow blameless, as being believers.

Rom 8:29-30 NRSVue For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (It reads "whom he foreknew", not "what he foreknew". The BDAG defines this as "choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29." The same word is translated "destined" in the following - 1Pe 1:20 NRSVue He was destined (KJV "ordained" ) before the foundation of the world but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.)

2Ti 1:9 NRSVue who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace, and this grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Joh 6:28-29 NRSVue Then they said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
*Believing is either "man's work" or "God's work", but it is called "work"!

Rom 11:5-7 NRSVue So, too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? Israel has not achieved what it was pursuing. The elect have achieved it, but the rest were hardened,

Act 13:48 NRSVue When the gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord, and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.

Rev 13:8 NRSVue and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.
*Rev. 3:5 records the assurance to those who were not perfect and who may fear, that their names will not be blotted out of the book of life. There is no record of a saint being blotted out.

1Th 5:9 NRSVue For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2Thess 2:13 REB We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe. *I disagree with the NRSVue using "first fruits" instead of "from the beginning". "From the beginning" is the translation in the KJV, RV, ASV, RSV, YLT, NET Bible, the Peshitta and Others

Rom 9:11 NRSVue even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue,

Rom 9:18, 23-24 NRSVue So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses...and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the gentiles?

Joh 17:2 NRSVue since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

1Pe 1:1-2 NRSVue Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Luk 10:20-21 NRSVue Nevertheless, do not rejoice at this, that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” 21 At that very hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; yes, Father, for such

 

[Jon777]

This King Goes and Rescues HIS Subjects Out of the Mass: Limited Atonement


Isa 55:11 NRSVue so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose and succeed in the thing for which I sent it. *The purposes of God never fail.

Gal 1:4 NRSVue who gave himself for our sins to set us free from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, *Did Jesus succeed in setting His people free, or did he fail? There is a separation of peoples here: "us" versus the "present evil age". The "us" are those who make up the churches, His people v2.

Mat 1:21 NRSVue She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” *The Son of God came with a mission, and he did NOT fail. He saved, not made savable.

Isa 53:8 NRSVue By a perversion of justice he was taken away. Who could have imagined his future? For he was cut off from the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people.

1Pe 1:18-19 NRSVue You know that you were ransomed from the futile conduct inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish.

Rev 5:9 NRSVue They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to break its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation; *We see here what John meant by "world" in John 3:16, it was not for Jews alone

Joh 10:15-16, 26 NRSVue just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd...Joh 10:26 NRSVue but you do not believe because you do not belong to my sheep.

Mat 20:28 NRSVue just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve and to give his life a ransom for many.”

Act 20:28 NRSVue Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

Eph 5:25 NRSVue Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Rom 8:31-34 NRSVue What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not withhold his own Son but gave him up for all of us, how will he not with him also give us everything else? 33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? It is Christ who died, or rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. "God gave his Son up for all of us, and in context it is the elect, the believers who are the "us".

Heb 9:28 NRSVue so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second

 

[Jon777]

The King's Strategy Will Not Fail to Rescue His Subjects - Irresistible Grace

Eze 36:26-27 NRSVue A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you, and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put my spirit within you and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. *It is God's will that changes the heart of the elect. The "I will" is emphatic, His purpose will not fail.

Psa 110:3 NRSVue Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day you lead your forces on the holy mountains. From the womb of the morning, like dew, your youth will come to you.

1Pe 1:2 NRSVue who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Jer 32:39 NRSVue I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me for all time, for their own good and the good of their children after them.

Jer 24:7 NRSVue I will give them a heart to know that I am the LORD, and they will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with their whole heart.

Php 2:13 NRSVue for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Pro 21:1 NRSVue The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.

Isa 44:28 NRSVue who says of Cyrus, “He is my shepherd, and he shall carry out all my purpose”; and who says of Jerusalem, “It shall be rebuilt,” and of the temple, “Your foundation shall be laid.”

2Co 8:16 NRSVue But thanks be to God, who put in the heart of Titus the same eagerness for you that I myself have.

Act 16:14 NRSVue A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul.

Joh 6:44 NRSVue No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day.

Isa 46:10 NRSVue declaring the outcome from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, “My purpose shall stand, and I will fulfill my intention,”

Eph 1:11 NRSVue In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,

Jas 1:18 NRSVue In fulfillment of his own purpose he gave birth to us by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

Eph 2:5 NRSVue even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Ezr 1:5 NRSVue Then the heads of the families of Judah and Benjamin and the priests and the Levites—everyone whose spirit God had stirred—got ready to go up and rebuild the house of the LORD in Jerusalem.

Pro 20:24 NRSVue All our steps are ordered by the LORD; how then can we understand our own ways?

Joh 10:27 NRSVue My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me.

 

[Jon777]

The Evil Still Attacks, but the King Prevails, Losing Not One – Perseverance of the Saints

Joh 10:27-30 NRSVue My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, in regard to what he has given me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

Joh 5:24 NRSVue Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and does not come under judgment but has passed from death to life. *The believers have "eternal life' and do not come under judgment. If this life can be lost, it was not "eternal"!

Eph 1:13-14 NRSVue In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; 14 this is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s own people, to the praise of his glory.

1Jn 2:19-20 NRSVue They went out from us, but they did not belong to us, for if they had belonged to us they would have remained with us. But by going out they made it plain that none of them belongs to us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and all of you have knowledge.

Php 1:6 NRSVue I am confident of this, that the one who began a good work in you will continue to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. The entire city of Philippi was abandoned in the 14th century, and only archaeological ruins remain today. So, the "you" here must be individual believers. PERSERANCE is that promise of God, not man's ability to keep himself saved. It is the "one" who began the work will continue, that is God.

Jud 1:24-25 NRSVue Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. *Perseverance is God's work in us, not our striving.

2Pe 1:10-11 RSV Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:29-30, 33-35 NRSVue For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified...Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? It is Christ who died, or rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will affliction or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?

1Th 5:23-24 NRSVue May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do this. *It is God who sanctifies his children.

2Co 5:17 NRSVue So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; look, new things have come into being!

Heb 7:25 NRSVue Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who approach God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

About faith

2Pe 1:1 NRSVue Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith as equally honorable as ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Act 18:27 RSVA And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed,

Php 1:29 NRSVue For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ but of suffering for him as well,

Rom 12:3 NRSVue For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. *The "each" to whom faith was assigned or given, are the "brothers" or "brethren" who Paul is writing to, v1.

2Pe 1:3 NRSVue His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and excellence.

 

[Jon777]

In the study of God's word, to form my belief system, I prefer to stay with the explicit statements of Scripture:

I have applied all this to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brethren, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. (1Co 4:6 RSV)

On TULIP, I have posted what to me is quite clear. For those who like to get into arguments of man's reasoning, the best source is the following:

The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination

 

[timf]

It can be interesting to experiment with possibilities using scripture. For example what if it is not individual believers that were predestined, but the category of those who trust in Jesus. Those who come into this category can be called predestined because the category was predestined.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

We might also see a "category" interpretation by considering that those who would become Christians were intended to do good works which are only possible after being placed in Christ through faith.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[GWH]

Pervasive Evil has Infected the Whole Mass of Humanity, Total Depravity

Gen 8:21 NRSVue And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of humans, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from youth; nor will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.

1Jn 5:19 NRSVue We know that we are God’s children and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.

2Co 4:4 NRSVue In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing clearly the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2Ti 2:24-26 NRSVue And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, 25 correcting opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth 26 and that they may escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Gal 1:3-4 NRSVue Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to set us free from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

Rom 3:10-12 NRSVue as it is written: “There is no one who is righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who has understanding; there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness; there is not even one.”

Rom 7:18 NRSVue For I know that the good does not dwell within me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do the good lies close at hand, but not the ability.

Psa 143:2 NRSVue Do not enter into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.

Jer 17:9 NRSVue The heart is devious above all else; it is perverse— who can understand it?

Job 14:4 NRSVue Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one can.

Isa 64:6 NRSVue We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy cloth. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Jer 13:23 NRSVue Can Cushites change their skin or leopards their spots? Then also you can do good, who are accustomed to do evil.

Rom 5:12 NRSVue Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned—

Rom 8:7 NRSVue For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed, it cannot,

1Co 2:14 NRSVue Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
*KJV reads "the natural man" where the NRSVue reads "those who are unspiritual

Eph 2:1 NRSVue You were dead through the trespasses and sins

Joh 6:44 NRSVue No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day. * If you have a desire to know Jesus Christ and reach out to him, the next verse is a promise to you!!

Joh 6:37 NRSVue Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away,

Thanks for sharing The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (TRDOP) in posts #30-36, Jon. I will reply in the order received,
but in order to keep the discussion manageable, at this point/time I might omit elements that do not seem directly related
to the T in TULIP/Total Depravity. I will number the paragraphs in case that is helpful for your next reply.

1. You began by citing Acts 16:14, which says the Lord opened Lydia’s heart, apparently wanting to imply that the Lord does not want to open every persons heart, which is a false interpretation in light of 1Timothy 2:3-4, which indicates that God wants to open everyone’s heart—prompting the question, “why is everyone not like Lydia?” What is TRDOP’s answer?

2. Next you cited Phil. 2:12-13, which instructs Christians to work out their own salvation, because God works in them to desire and do his good will, so the question prompted by this is “how does working out one’s own salvation harmonize with God’s working within a person?” TRDOP’s answer?

3. Then you say that if 1Tim. 2:3-4 speaking of God’s intentional will is true, then salvation will be universal, overlooking/omitting God’s permissive will, which allows sinners to reject His grace.

4. You cited Daniel 4:35, which seems similar to what Paul wrote in Romans 9:20, so I will reply to that NT passage, which teaches that God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants. You cited Psalm 135:6 and Job 23:13 as also saying this. We who believe God wants to save everyone agree with this.

5. The next relevant Scripture you cited was Genesis 8:21, which says that God will not destroy life on earth again, even though every human sins when they attain the age of accountability. We agree.

6. 1John 5:19 is prooftexted, but with verse 18 as conext we can see that it means the whole world other than those born of God is under Satan’s control. We agree.

7. 2Cor. 4:4 says Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers. Romans 6:16-17 provides context for this prooftext enabling us to see that we are slaves to the one we choose to obey. Do you agree?

8. You cited 2Tim. 2:24-26, which teaches that Christians must not quarrel, but instead hope that God will lead them to repent, come to know the truth and be saved, echoing 1Tim. 2:3-4. Hope you agree.

9. Romans 3:10-12 says that no one is righteous or seeks God. The meaning of this quote is stated by Paul: Both Jews and Gentiles are sinners in need of God’s salvation. We agree.

10. Romans 7:18 is cited for calling sinful desires the “sinful nature”, which wars against desire to do good or obey God’s will, and Rom. 7:19-8:1 says the war can be won by those who are IN Christ. Agreed?

I this is enough for one whack at a reply. Let us see how Jon is taking this exercise in dialectical theology.

Over.

 

[GWH]

It can be interesting to experiment with possibilities using scripture. For example what if it is not individual believers that were predestined, but the category of those who trust in Jesus. Those who come into this category can be called predestined because the category was predestined.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

We might also see a "category" interpretation by considering that those who would become Christians were intended to do good works which are only possible after being placed in Christ through faith.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Yes, I agree that the category view is the correct interpretation of Rom. 8:29-30 and Eph. 1:3-14.

Any thoughts regarding what I just posted to Jon?

 

[timf]

Any thoughts regarding what I just posted to Jon?

I generally try not to put too much effort in trying to convince someone who is not asking.