Loss of salvation???

[Ouch]

where a lot of people go wrong is the fact that Jesus and the father are mostly speaking to people whilst a being built up in the the heart and b awaiting to be filled with the holy spirit.

But yeah many take that every verse to mean exactly what they want it to.

His word is clear anyone who tries to destroy his temple, well God will destroy there's, only that temple will be Built on sand

Here the word salad chef makes a subtle twist that separates and juxtaposes moral conduct against obedience in the context of salvation; then uses hyperbole - ie, an overwhelming quantity of scriptural references too large to post- to bulwark that framing; and then segues into the gnostic idea that a do-nothing faith secures salvation because people are saved, not by their faith and conduct, but by the knowledge that they are spiritual in nature, which is expressed through the implications that what God has sealed can't be unsealed, the earnest of the holy spirit can't be taken away, and what is born from above can't be unborn.

In other words, what God has given to them cannot be taken away from them, even by God himself, thus their salvation is secure, even if they live like the devil. Salvation is based on who they are, not how they walk. This is the essence of the difference between gnostic perversions of scripture and the faith of Christ. Contrary to this gnostic belief, it is made very clear in numerous places that one's behavior is essential to salvation. For example:

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:13​

​

Follow peace with all men, and holiness without which no man shall see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14​

​

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Titus 2:11-12​

I don't have a clue how someone thinks faith alone saves and then you can never lose slavation.

UNLESS they just don't read all of HIS word just the parts they like.

Which is leading down the wrong road.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I don't have a clue how someone thinks faith alone saves and then you can never lose slavation.

UNLESS they just don't read all of HIS word just the parts they like.

Which is leading down the wrong road.

It's the wide gate and broad way

 

[Musicmaster]

With respect, maybe it’s, me but it’s hard to work out what you are saying regarding each point.

From what I can work out & please reference response to each point so it’s easier to follow;

1) two great commandments: to love God with all your being, and to love your neighbour as yourself

Agreed

a) So, the point is do we have to follow BOTH of then – or is it sufficient to believe in Jesus and be saved, even if you mistreat your neighbour?

b) Would that also not be a commandment / law to follow?

Yes, faith is sufficient, even when one sins...and we all still sin daily. You see, when others out there tell you that they know for sure where the threshold rests for loss of salvation, allegedly, then simply ask them to show that to you in scripture, and they almost always go to those sections dealing with unbelievers and the evils they do whereby THEY treasure up wrath for when they are cast into the lake.

Think about this...why do they even care about others who sin at a level THEY think is the cliff edge for falling into loss of salvation? Are they jealous of those people? I mean, what's their beef? We ALL sin daily. How could they know at any moment of their mean little lives that they themselves are still saved? By feelings? By some subjective measure fornsin? They spend all their time worrying about the biblical teaching for salvation sealed, and how that might lead someone to becoming a pimp and robbing banks, they're only arguing from the perspective of jealousy and hate. If a fellow believer falls into sin, we restore them through loving rebuke and encouragement. If they won't hear of it, then they are in the Hands of the Most High and outside the fellowship until they return in humility.

Your 1 above – we are talking about those who believe in Jesus but commit sin / evil – will they be saved – not about those you go to hell and the different punishment dependent of sin they committed.

a) Or are you saying that some that believe in Jesus will go to hell for the sin / evil – again what’s the moral evidence of sin based – is it not the law?

As Paul stated, the strength of sin is the Law. Again, sin cannot separate us from the love of Christ. If that were not true, we ALL would question our salvation.

Moral standards – what ones are you talking about & are the laws that need to be followed?

The Law is righteous, but the Law is not the standard for salvation. That's the problem with the works-based salvation of the salvation-loss gang. The Law, when sought as the standard for salvation, only condemns and kills. If you're looking for a list of moral codes to live by, the scriptures are your guide, within which you will find 1 John 2:27.

Punishment for what which ‘sins’ - & even if you believe in Jesus?

The COST for sin to us is the loss of reward...treasure in Heaven. Here is something for your study and meditation:


Romans 7:14-20 — For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

So even Paul struggled with sin. None of this is justification for sin, but we all still sin, and those who pretend as though they do not, thus allegedly adding to the Blood of Christ toward their salvation and/or items retention their good works, they fool only themselves.

You went on to say:
d) isn’t love your God and be good to neighbors’ ‘obedience’?

e) John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep ‘My commandments.’

f) Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

That passage in John was Jesus speaking to Israel, not Gentiles. They at the time that was spoken were not yet filled with Holy Spirit. We have to retain in our understanding the timeline, who was the audience, the context, etc.

As for the passage in Romans, please read that in context while keeping this in mind as well:

Romans 7:6 KJV — But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We are called to live by the Spirit rather than the letter. If you're looking to be led by the letter, then your life will be as dead as the salvation loss folks who think there is any virtue in their works that surpasses unmerited favor. Those two words are lost to them in their limited understanding of vocabulary. Unmerited favor has no meaning to them.

MM

 

[Nedsk]

Yes, faith is sufficient, even when one sins...and we all still sin daily. You see, when others out there tell you that they know for sure where the threshold rests for loss of salvation, allegedly, then simply ask them to show that to you in scripture, and they almost always go to those sections dealing with unbelievers and the evils they do whereby THEY treasure up wrath for when they are cast into the lake.

Think about this...why do they even care about others who sin at a level THEY think is the cliff edge for falling into loss of salvation? Are they jealous of those people? I mean, what's their beef? We ALL sin daily. How could they know at any moment of their mean little lives that they themselves are still saved? By feelings? By some subjective measure fornsin? They spend all their time worrying about the biblical teaching for salvation sealed, and how that might lead someone to becoming a pimp and robbing banks, they're only arguing from the perspective of jealousy and hate. If a fellow believer falls into sin, we restore them through loving rebuke and encouragement. If they won't hear of it, then they are in the Hands of the Most High and outside the fellowship until they return in humility.



As Paul stated, the strength of sin is the Law. Again, sin cannot separate us from the love of Christ. If that were not true, we ALL would question our salvation.



The Law is righteous, but the Law is not the standard for salvation. That's the problem with the works-based salvation of the salvation-loss gang. The Law, when sought as the standard for salvation, only condemns and kills. If you're looking for a list of moral codes to live by, the scriptures are your guide, within which you will find 1 John 2:27.



The COST for sin to us is the loss of reward...treasure in Heaven. Here is something for your study and meditation:


Romans 7:14-20 — For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

So even Paul struggled with sin. None of this is justification for sin, but we all still sin, and those who pretend as though they do not, thus allegedly adding to the Blood of Christ toward their salvation and/or items retention their good works, they fool only themselves.

You went on to say:
d) isn’t love your God and be good to neighbors’ ‘obedience’?

e) John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep ‘My commandments.’

f) Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

That passage in John was Jesus speaking to Israel, not Gentiles. They at the time that was spoken were not yet filled with Holy Spirit. We have to retain in our understanding the timeline, who was the audience, the context, etc.

As for the passage in Romans, please read that in context while keeping this in mind as well:

Romans 7:6 KJV — But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We are called to live by the Spirit rather than the letter. If you're looking to be led by the letter, then your life will be as dead as the salvation loss folks who think there is any virtue in their works that surpasses unmerited favor. Those two words are lost to them in their limited understanding of vocabulary. Unmerited favor has no meaning to them.

MM

Faith alone can't be sufficient as James says, James 2:22

Thus, you can see that his faith and his works were active together; his faith was brought to completion by works.

If faith alone was sufficient it would need completion. By definition that is not sufficient

 

[Sipsey]

Faith alone can't be sufficient as James says, James 2:22

Thus, you can see that his faith and his works were active together; his faith was brought to completion by works.

If faith alone was sufficient it would need completion. By definition that is not sufficient

Could it be that James was comparing a living faith that indeed is identified by the fruit of the Spirit, with a mere profession of faith?

 

[Nedsk]

Could it be that James was comparing a living faith that indeed is identified by the fruit of the Spirit, with a mere profession of faith?

I guess that's possible but some problems still exist. If faith alone is sufficient then whats the need to identify a "living" faith vs a dead faith? Plus James says faith is "completed" by works again bringing into question the sufficiency of faith alone.

 

[Sipsey]

I guess that's possible but some problems still exist. If faith alone is sufficient then whats the need to identify a "living" faith vs a dead faith? Plus James says faith is "completed" by works again bringing into question the sufficiency of faith alone.

Because we know their is a faith that is counterfeit.

 

[Nedsk]

Because we know their is a faith that is counterfeit.

But God knows that. If faith alone is sufficient then no mention it works is necessary. Does God need it "identified" for him?

 

[Sipsey]

But God knows that. If faith alone is sufficient then no mention it works is necessary. Does God need it "identified" for him?

Works are a supernatural extension of genuine faith. Remember when Jesus said, “You can do nothing without me.” Our motives determine whether our works are done in the flesh or under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Wood, hay, and stubble, or precious gems. The letter of the Law killeth, the Spirit of the Law produces life and fruit.

 

[mailmandan]

Could it be that James was comparing a living faith that indeed is identified by the fruit of the Spirit, with a mere profession of faith?

You are exactly right. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word that must not be overlooked) he has faith but he has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a mere profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James is not teaching salvation by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. The absence of evidence can be construed as evidence of absence.

 

[Jordon]

I don't have a clue how someone thinks faith alone saves and then you can never lose slavation.

UNLESS they just don't read all of HIS word just the parts they like.
Which is leading down the wrong road.

Depends on who's faith they have, as far as I'm aware each person is given a measure of faith by God by his grace, I believe in saved by grace through faith, but not if your own

Romans
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

 

[Ouch]

Depends on who's faith they have, as far as I'm aware each person is given a measure of faith by God by his grace, I believe in saved by grace through faith, but not if your own

Romans
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Sure is different levels of faith.

Faith alone does not save anyone.

This is what JESUS said, what's your thoughts?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

HE didn't say if you have faith at any level HE did say we have to be born of water AND of spirit to enter.

 

[Jordon]

Sure is different levels of faith.

Faith alone does not save anyone.

This is what JESUS said, what's your thoughts?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

HE didn't say if you have faith at any level HE did say we have to be born of water AND of spirit to enter.

ultimately It's all about the devine relationship between the individual and God

 

[Sipsey]

Sure is different levels of faith.

Faith alone does not save anyone.

This is what JESUS said, what's your thoughts?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

HE didn't say if you have faith at any level HE did say we have to be born of water AND of spirit to enter.

Grace is God’s undeserved favor: he saves sinners because of his mercy, not because they earn it.

Faith is trusting reliance on Christ—receiving him, resting on his sacrifice and resurrection, not merely agreeing with facts in the mind.

Works do not cause salvation, but the Bible says that real faith is living and active: James 2 teaches that “faith without works is dead,” meaning true faith will show itself in obedience and love.

How faith “saves”
Faith is the means or channel by which a person is united to Christ; Christ’s righteousness and sacrifice are what actually save.
When someone believes, God forgives sins, counts that person righteous in Christ, and gives the Holy Spirit, beginning a life of transformation that continues in repentance and obedience.

So the biblical picture is: saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone—but the faith that saves is never alone, because it is followed by the fruit of good works.

 

[mailmandan]

ultimately It's all about the devine relationship between the individual and God

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge.

 

[Ouch]

ultimately It's all about the devine relationship between the individual and God

AMEN, HE did what HE needed to do and left us instructions what we need to do to have that divine relationship with HIM.

Did you ever think of what was going through those 120 disciples in the upper room when HE filled them with the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:4.

Now that's the beginning of a good relationship.

I'm thinking they were baptized in JESUS name just moments later after Acts 2:39.

Which all lines up with what JESUS said in John 3:5!

 

[Ouch]

Grace is God’s undeserved favor: he saves sinners because of his mercy, not because they earn it.

Faith is trusting reliance on Christ—receiving him, resting on his sacrifice and resurrection, not merely agreeing with facts in the mind.

Works do not cause salvation, but the Bible says that real faith is living and active: James 2 teaches that “faith without works is dead,” meaning true faith will show itself in obedience and love.

How faith “saves”
Faith is the means or channel by which a person is united to Christ; Christ’s righteousness and sacrifice are what actually save.
When someone believes, God forgives sins, counts that person righteous in Christ, and gives the Holy Spirit, beginning a life of transformation that continues in repentance and obedience.

So the biblical picture is: saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone—but the faith that saves is never alone, because it is followed by the fruit of good works.

Thank you for all of your words, can you back them up with HIS word?

So you disagree with what JESUS says!

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

We are born in sin right?

The only way I see how to get rid of them in being baptized in JESUS name, can you show scripture of how when someone believes sin is remitted?

 

[Sipsey]

Thank you for all of your words, can you back them up with HIS word?

So you disagree with what JESUS says!

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

We are born in sin right?

The only way I see how to get rid of them in being baptized in JESUS name, can you show scripture of how when someone believes sin is remitted?

I guess you didn’t ”read between the lines.” Of course we are baptized/indwelt by the Holy Spirit when we are saved. This is what I posted; “When someone believes, God forgives sins, counts that person righteous in Christ, and gives the Holy Spirit,” (baptized with/by)

 

[Ouch]

I guess you didn’t ”read between the lines.” Of course we are baptized/indwelt by the Holy Spirit when we are saved. This is what I posted; “When someone believes, God forgives sins, counts that person righteous in Christ, and gives the Holy Spirit,” (baptized with/by)

I guess you don't understand what JESUS is saying???

Don't need to read between the lines JESUS is very clear.

Still no scripture?

You have some things mixed up, we are saved because we get baptized in JESUS name and after he fills us with the Holy Ghost and not before.

Just believing is the start, that alone does not save anyone.

Again John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

NOTICE UNLESS A MAN IS BORN OF WATER AND OF SPIRIT HE CAN NOT ENTER????

Example of being baptized.

Matthew 3:16-17
King James Version
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Example of being filled with the Holy GHost,

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is our instructions,

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[Sipsey]

I guess you don't understand what JESUS is saying???

Don't need to read between the lines JESUS is very clear.

Still no scripture?

You have some things mixed up, we are saved because we get baptized in JESUS name and after he fills us with the Holy Ghost and not before.

Just believing is the start, that alone does not save anyone.

Again John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

NOTICE UNLESS A MAN IS BORN OF WATER AND OF SPIRIT HE CAN NOT ENTER????

Example of being baptized.

Matthew 3:16-17
King James Version
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Example of being filled with the Holy GHost,

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is our instructions,

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It seems you wish to argue. I do not. If you are talking about water baptism, thats fine and yes, we should all make this public proclamation of our faith. It’s a wonderful activity that demonstrates what has already occurred.