Loss of salvation???

[Musicmaster]

Finding that biblical, healthy balance between obedience and grace is an elusive point of existence in Christ that so many miss because of gravitating out into some extreme.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/UFkjIS3AARA

MM

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

It's a process of legalism. Some object to that identifier, but what else can works be called?

Another item of interest is the "departure from the faith." Yes, some have claimed to depart from the faith, but they can't get away from Christ and His faithfulness.

MM

You're saying that a person can't leave Jesus even if they want to? Where does it say that in the Bible?

 

[Musicmaster]

The basis of obedience is an important consideration when discussing that term:

1) Obedience for the purpose of salvation
2) Obedience for the purpose of reward

The first item was valid for those under the Kingdom Gospel and the Law.

The second is for those under the Gospel of Grace.

Romans 3:10-12 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Obedience, then, is not the basis for our righteousness, for the righteousness of God upon us is a gift (Rom. 5:17). Nobody can earn a gift.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

MM

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Obedience, then, is not the basis for our righteousness, for the righteousness of God upon us is a gift (Rom. 5:17). Nobody can earn a gift.

What if a person who received that gift doesn't want it anymore like the man @studier was talking about and wants nothing more to do with God? Is God going to try to force the man to stay and keep His gift?

 

[Prycejosh1987]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

John says that they were not of us, because if they were of us they would of stayed with us. 1 John 2:19
Jesus says, that He would say to many of the day of judgment, i never knew you. Matthew 7:21-23

 

[Needevidence]

Who among the truly saved goes out and lives in whatever way your asking about?

Who has successfully resisted the sanctifying power of God in their lives to go out and live loosely...if that's what you're asking?

I'm assuming that your asking this is a matter of you having witnessed such.

Assuming you have seen someone who was truly saved go out and live in the depths of sinful pleasures, and given that we ALL continue to sin, do you suppose there's some threshold they can step over into losing salvation?

I'm asking because I know of no such an example whereby anyone could prove loss of salvation in another or even themselves. That should illegitamize the question itself. Do you agree?

MM

With respect that doesn’t answer the simple straight forward question - its a yes or no?

 

[Needevidence]

Precious @Needevidence? Cart before the horse?:

We believe first, receive God's Eternal Life ( Need Evidence?: Because Of God's Own
All-Sufficient BLOOD Shed FOR All mankind, see 1, 2, and 3 ), and then "we either":

1) Obey the "Dispensation of Grace" Commandments Of God in Romans - Philemon,

which will bring "rewards" At Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV), or:​

2) Disobey the "Dispensation of Grace" Commandments Of God in Romans - Philemon,

which will bring "NO rewards" At Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)​

Notice Carefully v. 15:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he​

himself Shall Be Saved; yet so as by fire." (cp 1 Corinthians 5:5 AV)​

​

Amen.

Hi - noted, but what do you make of the last relations received which implies keeping the commandments which he also stated before resurrection?

Rev 12:17 - And the dragon was enraged at the woman and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.


Rev 14:12 - Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


Matt 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfil them.

Until end of time – Matt 5:18 - For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

One should also remember Jesus said (clearly not all who believe in Jesus will be saved)

Matt 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

 

[Musicmaster]

With respect that doesn’t answer the simple straight forward question - its a yes or no?

My answer questioned the plausibility of your question, to which neither a yes or a no would be honest on my my part. Sorry, but being boxed in with faulty premise just isn't a legitimate question any reasonable person could answer in honest reflection. You may try your tactic in courts of law as a lying lawyer, but out here is where false premises can be questioned.

MM

 

[Jordon]

What if a person who received that gift doesn't want it anymore like the man @studier was talking about and wants nothing more to do with God? Is God going to try to force the man to stay and keep His gift?

where a lot of people go wrong is the fact that Jesus and the father are mostly speaking to people whilst a being built up in the the heart and b awaiting to be filled with the holy spirit.

But yeah many take that every verse to mean exactly what they want it to.

His word is clear anyone who tries to destroy his temple, well God will destroy there's, only that temple will be Built on sand

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Israel was called to a priesthood over this earth that Gentiles were not called to fulfill. Israel fell, to be raised back up once the blindness is lifted from us as a nation, with Gentiles not ever referred to as a priesthood in any of Paul's epistles as we see in places like this:

1 Peter 2:5, 9
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. ...
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Replacement theology has many claiming this refers to Gentiles, even though Peter was NOT the apostles to the Gentiles, and Paul nevr once referring to Gentiles as a nation nor a priesthood.

But notice who Peter was speaking to in the next verse. Not my people, ie, gentiles.

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:10​

​

This is a direct reference to the the Hosea prophecy . Though the number of Israel was meant to be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved, and the fullness completed by the gentiles.

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10​

And Paul confirms God was speaking of the gentiles

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:24-26​

@studier bringing this to your attention in case you have grown weary of the word salad chef's rhetorical games and don't see it before it gets buried. He claims 1 Peter 2:5, 9 doesn't refer to gentiles, however in verse 10 Peter clearly states that is who he is referring to.

 

[Needevidence]

My answer questioned the plausibility of your question, to which neither a yes or a no would be honest on my my part. Sorry, but being boxed in with faulty premise just isn't a legitimate question any reasonable person could answer in honest reflection. You may try your tactic in courts of law as a lying lawyer, but out here is where false premises can be questioned.

MM

Not at all - you either have - commands, rules, regulations, conditions, constraint etc (call it what you want) or you have no restrictions / release from all control and it doesn’t matter what you do - (even if you have 1 constraint - that would imply that there is a condition that needs to be met)

So again, do we have any control or no control - in-between is just a deflect / avoid!

You either do or you don’t even if it’s 1.

 

[Musicmaster]

Not at all - you either have - commands, rules, regulations, conditions, constraint etc (call it what you want) or you have no restrictions / release from all control and it doesn’t matter what you do - (even if you have 1 constraint - that would imply that there is a condition that needs to be met)

So again, do we have any control or no control - in-between is just a deflect / avoid!

You either do or you don’t even if it’s 1.

Yes, for storing up treasure in Heaven, there is a standard to which one must adherence to succeed in building with that which is more durable than hay, wood and stubble.

For salvation itself, there is only faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day.

Thereafter, no, not in the sense of losing or retaining salvation.

Fallaciously claiming that the absence of regulatory requirements for retention, that only can be argued from silence on that front, or resorts to the Kingdom Gospel, under which we are not.

If, in your mind, that leads only to loose living in whatever way one so desires, that is all on you and your subjective rules for analysis, which is extreme from what I have seen you address so far. The power within the resulting Sanctification believers find themselves recipients in Christ, it's a holding upon us all who are truly in Christ.

If you personally feel that you're retaining your salvation on the basis of your own strength, then good luck with that because you're going to need something far more powerful than your own works of effort if only it were on that basis.

MM

 

[Needevidence]

Yes, for storing up treasure in Heaven, there is a standard to which one must adherence to succeed in building with that which is more durable than hay, wood and stubble.

For salvation itself, there is only faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day.

Thereafter, no, not in the sense of losing or retaining salvation.

Fallaciously claiming that the absence of regulatory requirements for retention, that only can be argued from silence on that front, or resorts to the Kingdom Gospel, under which we are not.

If, in your mind, that leads only to loose living in whatever way one so desires, that is all on you and your subjective rules for analysis, which is extreme from what I have seen you address so far. The power within the resulting Sanctification believers find themselves recipients in Christ, it's a holding upon us all who are truly in Christ.

If you personally feel that you're retaining your salvation on the basis of your own strength, then good luck with that because you're going to need something far more powerful than your own works of effort if only it were on that basis.

MM

I asked a straight forward Q - very confusing reply.



From what I can understand;



1) Yes - 'for storing up treasure in Heaven' - what’s that you get extras? and how do you gain extras?

2) Salvation not dependent on anything - 'only faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day.'

Is salvation going to Heaven?

So, it doesn’t matter how evil you are as long as you believe?

 

[studier]

@studier bringing this to your attention in case you have grown weary of the word salad chef's rhetorical games and don't see it before it gets buried. He claims 1 Peter 2:5, 9 doesn't refer to gentiles, however in verse 10 Peter clearly states that is who he is referring to.

I've been through the mid-acts dispensationalism or hyper-dispensational 2 gospel theory with him before. It's pointless discussion unless we buy into those systems, which I don't.

IMO it's ultimately simple to see the agenda. Although we basically came close to a very simple answer to a very simple question, when I asked once more for complete clarity, it's off to the races with the 2 gospels again.

If we cannot see the ultimate systematic agenda, the self-perceived cultural authority, the self-perceived authority of a Th. M., the chiding of others for lack of critical thinking when his posts are full of fallacious argumentation, the lack of depth in taking from Scripture while claiming others are eisegeting, then this merry-go-round is self-perpetuating.

On another note, I've found your references to the similarities of OSAS and gnosticism interesting and I looked up and read some of literature you were drawing from.

Salvation loss is most always a joy to partake in...

cc: @Musicmaster.

 

[Musicmaster]

So, it doesn’t matter how evil you are as long as you believe?

That's right. You are evil right now (Matt. 7:11). We ALL are evil in that we still sin. Are you trying to say that you don't sin any more in this life?

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

That's right. You are evil right now (Matt. 7:11). We ALL are evil in that we still sin. Are you trying to say that you don't sin any more in this life?

MM

A modern manifestation of gnosticism

"[The Valentinian gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions in which they may be involved.
...
... to them who are called "the spiritual and perfect" ... [good] conduct is not at all necessary. For it is not conduct of any kind which leads into the Pleroma [heaven], but the seed [of grace] sent forth from there in a feeble, immature state, and here brought to perfection."

Against Heresies, book 1, chapter 6, paragraphs 2, 4

 

[Needevidence]

That's right. You are evil right now (Matt. 7:11). We ALL are evil in that we still sin. Are you trying to say that you don't sin any more in this life?

MM

It would help if you responded to all the points to have a fruitful discussion - maybe I’ll take something good from the conversation.



I wait for your response to the other points as to the above;

Not that I disagree as such with you state & I’m far from perfect;

1) but what source / moral code do you use to define sin?

2) Is there any difference / levels of sin - is murder the same as shoplifting?

3) does 1 have more consequences then the other?

 

[Musicmaster]

It would help if you responded to all the points to have a fruitful discussion - maybe I’ll take something good from the conversation.



I wait for your response to the other points as to the above;

Not that I disagree as such with you state & I’m far from perfect;

1) but what source / moral code do you use to define sin?

2) Is there any difference / levels of sin - is murder the same as shoplifting?

3) does 1 have more consequences then the other?

Fair enough.

The moral code is the Law. Jesus stated that ALL the Law and prophets are fulfilled in the first two of the ten. The question, then, becomes to what extent do we seek to obey ALL the moral absolutes of all Gods word?

1) The simple answer is ALL moral absolutes outlined throughout are good to pursue. Faith above all as the means by which we receive salvation is by grace through faith. Paul stated nothing about obedience in the context of salvation. However, he spoke much about the moral standards of conduct and humility in all things. The rundown of the references would be overwhelming in a post, but personal study on this will produce the fruit of understanding that our salvation being to the uttermost by faith, sealed by Holy Spirit, given the earnest of Holy Spirit, born anew and immersed into Gods power of Sanctification, the questio melts away.

2) In Hell, there are degrees of punishment for the sins committed, with Satan receiving the greatest punishment over all others. Romans 2:1-16 is a good section for study, reading it carefully, word for word, digesting the nuances and tid-bits so easily overlooked when reading it like a novel. Paul speaks of those who are saved and who are not saved in his comparative dissertation. The unbelieving religionists treasure up wrath (v. 5) in God's judgement, but the truly righteous receive glory and honor (v. 10). If a true believer falls away into unbelief, many evil people are quick to judge then as having lost their salvation, and they don't MM without walking innthatnpersons shoes.

2 Timothy 2:13 — If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So, in Heaven too, there is degree of reward for good works versus the sins committed.

1 Corinthians 3:15 — If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

3) Yes, as covered thus far in this post. There are crowns and there are other rewards, although we have not been given specifics si ce eye has not seen nor ears heard, nor have any imagined, what's in store for us in the Heavenlies. We are destined for Heaven, not the New Earth or New Jerusalem. Modern and historic Jerusalem is Babylon, as Peter called it in his epistle, but the body of Christ, being under grace (unmerited favor), we will have our rewards in the Heavenlies as scripture states.

Granted, there are those who disagree and are on the side of works-based salvation. Their shoes I will not put on. They stand alone in their belief in some sort of lack in the effectiveness they think exists in the shed Blood of Christ Jesus. Their trust in their works may be their undoing. Not my call. They are on their own. As for me, I will only trust in Christ and what He did for me rather than to hold up to Him my resume as if itnhad any merits in relation to the cross.

Hope that helps.

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Paul stated nothing about obedience in the context of salvation. However, he spoke much about the moral standards of conduct and humility in all things. The rundown of the references would be overwhelming in a post, but personal study on this will produce the fruit of understanding that our salvation being to the uttermost by faith, sealed by Holy Spirit, given the earnest of Holy Spirit, born anew and immersed into Gods power of Sanctification, the questio melts away.

Here the word salad chef makes a subtle twist that separates and juxtaposes moral conduct against obedience in the context of salvation; then uses hyperbole - ie, an overwhelming quantity of scriptural references too large to post- to bulwark that framing; and then segues into the gnostic idea that a do-nothing faith secures salvation because people are saved, not by their faith and conduct, but by the knowledge that they are spiritual in nature, which is expressed through the implications that what God has sealed can't be unsealed, the earnest of the holy spirit can't be taken away, and what is born from above can't be unborn.

In other words, what God has given to them cannot be taken away from them, even by God himself, thus their salvation is secure, even if they live like the devil. Salvation is based on who they are, not how they walk. This is the essence of the difference between gnostic perversions of scripture and the faith of Christ. Contrary to this gnostic belief, it is made very clear in numerous places that one's behavior is essential to salvation. For example:

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:13​

​

Follow peace with all men, and holiness without which no man shall see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14​

​

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Titus 2:11-12​

 

[Needevidence]

Fair enough.

The moral code is the Law. Jesus stated that ALL the Law and prophets are fulfilled in the first two of the ten. The question, then, becomes to what extent do we seek to obey ALL the moral absolutes of all Gods word?

1) The simple answer is ALL moral absolutes outlined throughout are good to pursue. Faith above all as the means by which we receive salvation is by grace through faith. Paul stated nothing about obedience in the context of salvation. However, he spoke much about the moral standards of conduct and humility in all things. The rundown of the references would be overwhelming in a post, but personal study on this will produce the fruit of understanding that our salvation being to the uttermost by faith, sealed by Holy Spirit, given the earnest of Holy Spirit, born anew and immersed into Gods power of Sanctification, the questio melts away.

2) In Hell, there are degrees of punishment for the sins committed, with Satan receiving the greatest punishment over all others. Romans 2:1-16 is a good section for study, reading it carefully, word for word, digesting the nuances and tid-bits so easily overlooked when reading it like a novel. Paul speaks of those who are saved and who are not saved in his comparative dissertation. The unbelieving religionists treasure up wrath (v. 5) in God's judgement, but the truly righteous receive glory and honor (v. 10). If a true believer falls away into unbelief, many evil people are quick to judge then as having lost their salvation, and they don't MM without walking innthatnpersons shoes.

2 Timothy 2:13 — If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So, in Heaven too, there is degree of reward for good works versus the sins committed.

1 Corinthians 3:15 — If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

3) Yes, as covered thus far in this post. There are crowns and there are other rewards, although we have not been given specifics si ce eye has not seen nor ears heard, nor have any imagined, what's in store for us in the Heavenlies. We are destined for Heaven, not the New Earth or New Jerusalem. Modern and historic Jerusalem is Babylon, as Peter called it in his epistle, but the body of Christ, being under grace (unmerited favor), we will have our rewards in the Heavenlies as scripture states.

Granted, there are those who disagree and are on the side of works-based salvation. Their shoes I will not put on. They stand alone in their belief in some sort of lack in the effectiveness they think exists in the shed Blood of Christ Jesus. Their trust in their works may be their undoing. Not my call. They are on their own. As for me, I will only trust in Christ and what He did for me rather than to hold up to Him my resume as if itnhad any merits in relation to the cross.

Hope that helps.

MM

With respect, maybe it’s, me but it’s hard to work out what you are saying regarding each point.

From what I can work out & please reference response to each point so it’s easier to follow;

1) two great commandments: to love God with all your being, and to love your neighbour as yourself

Agreed

a) So, the point is do we have to follow BOTH of then – or is it sufficient to believe in Jesus and be saved, even if you mistreat your neighbour?

b) Would that also not be a commandment / law to follow?

2) Your 1 above – we are talking about those who believe in Jesus but commit sin / evil – will they be saved – not about those you go to hell and the different punishment dependent of sin they committed.

a) Or are you saying that some that believe in Jesus will go to hell for the sin / evil – again what’s the moral evidence of sin based – is it not the law?

b) Moral standards – what ones are you talking about & are the laws that need to be followed?

c) Punishment for what which ‘sins’ - & even if you believe in Jesus?

d) isn’t love your God and be good to neighbors’ ‘obedience’?

e) John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep ‘My commandments.’

f) Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.