144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[ATG]

[QUOTE="memberofthebride, post: 5639727, member: 345278"}

Any one that believes God does not know each and every one of HIS Chosen people, where they are and who they are by name --- does not understand God's power. [/QUOTE]

Any one that believes God does not know each and every one of HIS OT tribes, where they are changed by name to contradict each other, --- does not understand God's power to be Scripturally inerrant.

Any one that believes God has favorites among each and every one of HIS Chosen people, where Jews are preferred before Gentiles --- does not understand God's power to save and justify without respect of persons.

 

[ATG]

A new better covenant, accessed individually thru Abraham like FAITH:
Heb 8:6–13, 9:11–15, 12:24, all emphasizing that Christ’s blood brings forgiveness & eternal redemption beyond what the Sinai animal sacrifices covenant could achieve.

Another good point. Separating Jews from Gentiles in the body and service of Christ, is another example of Judaizing the NT. They are preaching OT exclusiveness to NT gospel.

It's the same with Christians who mix NT law of Christ with OT law of Moses, such as outward circumcision, sabbath-keeping, days of feasts as by law.

 

[ATG]

They had to be from the house of Irael because the prophecy says God would make the new covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah. Furthermore if the disciples had been Jews they wouldn't have spoken like this.

Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again. His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? John 11:7-8​

Nor spoken like this:

Mat 2:2
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Nor like this in the King of the Jews' Millennial kingdom:

Zec 8:23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

All the OT tribes of Israel will receive their allotment of the land promised to Abraham and his natural seed. Not just Judah. (Including Dan first of all the rest...)

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

the Doctrine of "replacement theology" , is false. the 12 tribes grown into Nations as was foretold, are alive and well today.

Jacob actually did prophesy that the seed of Ephraim (Israel) would become a fullness of the gentiles, but he was referring to spiritual seed of faith, not physical seed of earthly lineage.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Nor like this in the King of the Jews' Millennial kingdom:
Zec 8:23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

This is being fulfilled now as it has been for the past nearly 2000 years. Whenever we read the bible we are grabbing onto the skirts of the NT writers and saying "We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you"

 

[ATG]

No, I as referring to this harpazo. This manchild is the 144,000 standing on Mt Zion. They are seized by God to Mt Zion, but it says nothing about being resurrected.

So, you're giving another interpretation to Rev 14.

Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Many interpret this as Jesus. However, there is room for the man-child being anyone born again by the gospel of Jesus Christ:

1Co 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

However, the Scripture certainly applies to Jesus, and He died and resurrected before ascending to the throne of God.

There are only two men thought to be caught up to God's throne, without first dying, Enoch and Elijah.

Mt Zion and Mt Sion are the same thing; just a queer spelling in the latter case.

False. Scripture clearly makes difference between Mt Zion on earth, and the heavenly Mt Sion.

{12:22}
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

The only queer thing would be all NT saints coming to Mt Zion of this Jerusalem.

Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The righteous saints are only made perfect, by the resurrection and redemption of the body.

Phl 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Phl 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am
apprehended of Christ Jesus.

 

[ATG]

And you just keep making stuff up.

And you keep ignoring the stuff without addressing it. And instead just say 'na-ah'.

And continuing to just repeat yourself is not a valid correction. If you want to directly refute my point, and show any error in it, then I'd be glad to see it...

 

[ATG]

When wild olive branches are grafted into the olive tree of Israel, they become sons of Israel. And everyone in Israel belongs to a tribe according to God's choice. It is even witnessed in the prophets that God would join gentiles to the tribe of Levi.

And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. Isaiah 66:19-21​

For some reason, we have people fixed on an interpretation of prophecy, that would not only make Scripture contradict itself in the 2 different lists of tribes, but also rejects the first principle of not dividing the servants and body of the Lamb according to the flesh.

This is why they consistently blind themselves, and refuse to respond, to the obvious Scriptural proof for the NT Israel of God, being both Jews and Greeks grafted therein...

It just shows the power of personal will over Scripture. Though they are likely not Jews themselves, they are more than glad to Judaize the service of God in Christ Jesus. As well as feed fodder to the non-believers I have heard from, who know the two lists of names are not the same, and so if they do refer to the same tribes, then it's the Scriptural errancy they always look for...

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

False. Scripture clearly makes difference between Mt Zion on earth, and the heavenly Mt Sion.

Yeah, but they're both called Mt Zion. Zion is translated into Greek with a sigma (S) instead of a zeta (Z) because the Semitic letter Tsade (צ) is often transliterated as sigma in Greek.

 

[ATG]

Jesus and Paul called Israel Jews.

You are welcome

And Paul calls natural Israel, Israel after flesh, vs engrafted Israel the Israel of God.

And Scripture calls the engrafted Israel of God, both Jews and Gentiles.

You're double welcome.

 

[ATG]

They look rather like a holy remnant, sealed by God and protected from the Great Tribulation. Bodily resurrection in Rev. 20:1-5 hasn't happened yet until the Lord's return.

It's certainly an argument, but it must spiritualize the Scriptures without physical application.

I.e. the winds are not held still by the angel, so that all the earth is aware, and the foreheads are not foreheads.

Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Is this also just in the Spirit, and not physically done in the air?

1 Th 4:15
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Just in the Spirit, not physically caught up to meet the Lord in the air?

You see, once we begin to spiritualize Scripture and dismiss the physical event, then anyone can spiritualize anything about prophecy of Scripture, and dismiss it physically. There are those who say the Lord's Millennium is an ongoing reign of the Lord and His people in Spirit, and never in resurrected physical bodies...Do you agree, or is that where you personally draw the line?

Rev 7 and 14 along with Rev 1, can easily be seen as Jesus' return in the air, with the resurrection of His saints on earth, and ascension into the air to be with Him, where He is on mt Sion.

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

All eyes shall see Him returning in His glory through the sky from east to west with clouds, and at the same time with nature's wind at a standstill, they see His saints resurrected and changed on earth, as well as raptured into the air. The same as the two witnesses in Rev 11.

This physical rendering of Jesus' return, with resurrection and ascension of His saints, makes perfect timing and sense to anyone that would believe the prophecy of Scripture, exactly as written...

 

[Aaron56]

[QUOTE="memberofthebride, post: 5639727, member: 345278"}

Any one that believes God has favorites among each and every one of HIS Chosen people, where Jews are preferred before Gentiles --- does not understand God's power to save and justify without respect of persons.

Right, that would be another gospel.

 

[FlyingDove]

And you keep ignoring the stuff without addressing it. And instead just say 'na-ah'.

And continuing to just repeat yourself is not a valid correction. If you want to directly refute my point, and show any error in it, then I'd be glad to see it...

I will continue to ignore: because you say so. I continue to repost actual scripture.

Here again! Rev 7:4-8 a direct Copy & Paste (I didn't write it & yes I'll keep reposting the truth as it's written)

Rev 7:
4 And I heard how many were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand; [twelve thousand] sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 Twelve thousand were sealed from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,

6 twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,

7 twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,

8 twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed (marked, redeemed, protected).

REREADING vs 4: 12k SEALED from EVERY TRIBE of the SONS of ISRAEL! That would be Jacob's sons,

The next 4 verses name the exact TRIBES referenced!

Bottom line: John's God breathed writings cites the Rev 7 144k are literal Israelites, sealed for a specific purpose. Rev 7 is about Jacob/Israel's tribes, exactly as written.

These 144k are found again in Rev 14:

Rev 14:
3 And they sang a new song before the throne [of God] and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased (ransomed, redeemed) from the earth.

4 These are the ones who have not been defiled [by relations] with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased and redeemed from among men [of Israel] as the first fruits [sanctified and set apart for special service] for God and the Lamb.
(MY NOTE: These 144k of ISRAEL were the FIRST FRUITS REDEEMED from AMONG MEN of ISRAEL, sanctified & set apart for special service onto God & the Lamb!)

If you'll just read the text! John's God breathed writings map out who the context is about > ISRAEL!

Here's another helpful map: https://ibiblemaps.com/tribal-allotments-of-israel-2/

 

[ATG]

QUOTE
Rom 9:6
""For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel
For the first time in Scripture, the distinction is made between Israelites born after the flesh, and spiritually born Israelites indeed and in truth""

Except it wasn't.

Was.

All the Apostles preached the gospel.
Ahem....being converted ..born of the spirit.
And Jesus contrasted being born of the spirit vs born of the flesh.
Further, Paul used "jew" and "Israelites" interchangeably.

Just saying na-ah, and only repeating yourself, isn't an argument against anything.

I'll no longer respond to anything, that does not either directly address a point I make, to show why 'na-ah', or at least brings in something new.

 

[FlyingDove]

The "so all Israel will be saved" represents spiritual Israel, not the earthly nation of Israel. All of spiritual Israel will/must become saved.



It means that all who remain in true belief do so as a result of having been saved; those who fall-away were never of the saved - their belief superficial, temporary, not true belief and not from the heart.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



I don't follow your point. Everyone born-again became/becomes grafted in by God because being born-again is the result of salvation - only those grafted in by God remain so. The unsaved who claim to be Christians, will eventually fall away, that at the end, all who remain were those grafted in by God.



Nope. God made no such promise to regraft in the whole earthly nation of Israel just because He removed the nation and its people as a whole. Those regrafted are those who were chosen by Him individually.

Did you read the verses I included in my prior post? They unequivocally state that it would be impossible for the earthly nation of Israel to regain any standing with God. Instead, it is the true spiritual Church alone that has become the nation and the people of God. They are spiritual Israel - it alone the bride of Christ, and Christ will not have two brides.

[Rev 21:2 KJV] 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Romans Chapter 11 - Israel Is Not Cast Away
Vs 1, Paul begins with a bold declaration: "Has God cast away His people? God forbid." He points to himself as proof; an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. Israel is not rejected, disowned, or replaced.

Vs 5,6, Currently there is a remnant/a small believing minority of Israelite believers. God always preserves a faithful core.

Vs 7,8,9 Though a believing remnant sees clearly, the rest are blinded. "God has given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see & ears that they should not hear, unto this day." (See Deut. 29:4; Isa. 29:10.)
This blindness is real, but it is not final.

VS 11, Paul asks: "Have they stumbled that they should fall?" Answer: No! Their stumbling opened the door for salvation to come to the Gentiles, to provoke Israel to jealousy.

Vs 20, Unbelieving Israelite branches were broken off because they rejected Christ’s law-fulfilling, sin-atoning work. Gentiles, by faith in Jesus' finished work, have been grafted into Israel’s covenant promises. (See Eph. 2:12.)

Vs 25 Paul unveils a divine mystery: Israel's blindness that's partial & temporary. It will last "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." God’s plan includes both Gentile salvation & Israel’s restoration.

Vs 26, At that time, "all Israel shall be saved." As written: "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer & shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob = Israel. Messiah Himself will complete the work.

Vs 29, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." God chose Israel & will not change His mind. Done deal!

God has not rejected, disowned or replaced Israel with the NT church. The Church/believers in Jesus finished sin atoning sacrificial work. Have been grafted into God's covenants of promise. I.E. Access to our Great God & savior, Jesus the Christ!

Romans 11 isn't about replacing Israel with the Church. It's about inclusion, reconciliation & God's unchanging covenant faithfulness.

The Church/believers in Jesus' finished, sin-atoning sacrifice. Have been grafted into the covenants of promise. Israel remains chosen & Gentiles are included. Together they testify to the mercy of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

3O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[ATG]

The disciples never called themselves Jews, or even conceived of themselves as such.

Gal 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Acts 18:24
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

I'm not sure why you're trying to ride a dead horse, but it detracts from your credibility elsewhere.

Rom 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

God's natural division after the flesh, is now between Jews and Gentiles, not between Judah, Israel, and Gentiles...

 

[Aaron56]

REREADING vs 4: 12k SEALED from EVERY TRIBE of the SONS of ISRAEL! That would be Jacob's sons,

Now list the tribes mentioned... is that a list of all Jacob's sons or something different?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

God's natural division after the flesh, is now between Jews and Gentiles, not between Judah, Israel, and Gentiles...

Was, not is. There is neither Jew nor non-Jew in God's kingdom now; they are all children of Abraham. At one time God did make a distinction between Israel and Judah. That lasted until Pentecost when one new nation was born from above by the spirit.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28​

​

The world divides between Jews and gentiles. Apollos was obviously a follower of Judaism until Aquila and Priscila set him straight. Paul was contrasting Peter with the gentiles by calling him a Jew, but Peter was not a Jew.

 

[ATG]

Lets separate metaphor from genealogy

Isa 66:21 Although Isa 66 cites one day Gentiles serving as priests & 1 Peter 2:9 cites all believers as royal priesthood. Neither passage cite TRIBAL membership.

1Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Jas 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Begotten is born genealogy. All begat of God are now in the genealogy of Jesus Christ, who begat no natural genealogy of His own.

These are the generated firstfruits of His begotten creatures.

Mat 28:10
Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

Mar 3:33
And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

Heb 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

These are the begotten genealogical brethren of the resurrected Jesus Christ. Not just the Jews only, but also the Gentiles. Anyone that is not in the genealogy of Jesus Christ by the Spirit, they are not His begotten brethren.

Phl 4:1
Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

When Paul began to speak of Gentile converts as brethren, offended the natural Jews, that still trust in natural tribal genealogy alone to be in the Israel of God.

Rom 11's wild olive tree is a metaphor about FAITH, NOT GENEALOGY! Paul says Gentiles are grafted in to share the blessings of God's covenant with Israel. He never teaches that they become literal sons of Israel.

If literal begotten brethren of the risen God of Israel, then so also literal begotten sons of Israel of God.

Or, is that which is born of the flesh, more literal, that that which is born of the Spirit. Is the things of the natural man more true and lasting than that of the Spirit:

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

All the begotten sons of God are in the Israel of God, without respect to begotten genealogy of any natural man.

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2Pe 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Prophecy of the will of natural man, is blind to the prophecy of the Spirit: Only those born of God are the generated brethren of His Son Jesus Christ.

No one is claiming natural genealogy for the 144,000, except for the natural men, that exclude natural Gentiles from sealed service to the living God. And only those claiming natural genealogy for the 144,000, are making Scripture contradict itself between the 12 OT tribes of Jacob, and the newly named 12 NT tribes of God's Israel.

Scripture teaches that natural Jews and Gentiles are grafted into the NT Israel of God, with the genealogical brethren and tribes of the Lamb's Israel, are listed by name in Rev 7. Are His begotten brethren not His tribes? Are His tribes not in the Israel of God?

Tribal identity in Scripture was always genealogical (See Num 1:1-18).

Correct. In the OT that you quote. Not in the NT after the crucifixion and resurrection of the LORD God of Israel.

You choose natural tribal identity as necessary in the NT gospel, doctrine, and prophecy. God chooses to have no more such respect for natural tribal identity in the service, body, and churches of His dear Son.

So, let's clear it all up: Are you part of the NT Israel of God, or not? Are you a begotten brother of Jesus, or not? Is the NT Israel of God for natural geological Jews alone? Are Jews the only brethren of the risen Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[ATG]

Of course they do. Israel is the olive tree. If a proselyte in ancient times became circumcised and joined Israel, they were assigned to a tribe. The same is true when wild olive branches are grafted into Israel.

Act 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

And so, the Judaizing has come full circle.