144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[ATG]

Thank you for your reply, ATG. Sorry, my fault, but I don't quite understand your conclusion (above) re Rev 7 and 14. If you would,
when convenient, please share the verses you're referring to.

I'm only giving responses that the Judaizers would give to the Scriptures you quote. For the unbiased Christian, whether Jew or Greek, the verses you correctly give do prove, that the 144,000 are redeemed saints of God from among all people on earth. That is from among the Jews and Gentiles.

But Christians still intent on favoring Jews in the body of Christ, will just insert Jews into the verses, in order to keep their biased interpretation:

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood Jews out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

People who care more for their own personal interpretations than Scripture itself, don't mind inserting their personal interpretation into Scripture...

2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

This Scripture doesn't mean that we can't have personal interpretations of Scripture, but only that we shouldn't insert them into the written words, in order to change Scripture into our own private interpretation...

Another example is what created christers do with John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God... If you see what I mean.

 

[FlyingDove]

The 144k are all Israelites of God indeed! Both Jew and Greek.

FlyingDove said:
Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 TRIBES of Israel are Jacob's sons. The 144k are 100% Israelites!
Only in the OT, and when specified in the NT. Otherwise, the NT Israel of God is not all Israel after the flesh, and the Lamb's tribes, are not only sons of Jacob.

Rom 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

In the NT gospel of Jesus Christ, not all Israel after the flesh, is the Israel of God.

Saying that the 144,000 Israelites of God in Rev 7 and 14, are only Jewish sons of Jacob, is making the NT word of God of none effect. It nullifies the gospel and redemption of Jesus Christ to whosever repents, to be a new national covenant of natural Jews, to the exclusion of natural Gentiles.

Saying that the list of tribes of Israel in Rev 7, is the list of OT tribes of Jacob, also feeds into the accusation of nonbelievers, that the Bible in Rev 7 contradicts all of the OT, where Dan is always listed as one of the tribes of Jacob, and etched in stone on the high priest's breastplate.

Jhn 1:47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

The 144k are all Israelites of God indeed! Both Jew and Greek.

Flyingdove reply:

Find here a 100% Copy & Paste - KJ Version
Rec 7:
4 And I heard how many were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand; [twelve thousand] sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 Twelve thousand were sealed from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,
6 twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,
8 twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed (marked, redeemed, protected).


ATG, Rev 7 doesn’t leave room for "spiritualizing" the TRIBES, listed in every verse. John names them one by one & counts 12k from each. He is describing literal Israel/Jacob’s descendants. If it were symbolic & includes Gentiles, why bother repeatedly listing them as tribes?

Rom 11:1–2 Paul says plainly states he’s from the "TRIBE of Benjamin" & that God has not cast away ISRAEL His covenant people!

Rom 9:6 doesn’t erase Israel’s identity; it distinguishes believing Jews from unbelieving ones. Never citing Gentiles as "TRIBES."

The omission of Dan. It's deliberate because of idolatry (Judges 18), not a contradiction.

Bottom line: the 144k cited in Rev 7 are literal Israelites, sealed for a specific purpose. Rev 7 as written by John is about Jacob/Israel's tribes, exactly as written.

 

[ATG]

Thanks ATG for you post about the first resurrection. I see Jesus as being the first resurrection. He was the firstborn from the dead. The Bible appears to say that all true believers will have a part in the first resurrection, meaning that all true believers are able to be born again to a new life in Christ because of Jesus' resurrection from the dead : "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ "

Good post. It's true that those repenting for Jesus' sake and born again, are indeed spiritually resurrected to newness of life, even as newborn babes. However, Rev 20 is after the Lord's return in Rev 19, and speaking of the first bodily resurrection of the churches of God, called the redemption of the body.

Rom 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Rev 20:5
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

We see that this resurrection begins a thousand year reign after the Lord's return, rather than the spiritual resurrection after His resurrection, that begins service to Christ for the remainder of our life on earth.

Rev 20:1
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

We also see that the thousand year reign of the resurrected blessed and holy church of Jesus Christ at His return, is while Satan the Devil is chained in the pit of earth.

1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Until the Lord's return, the roaring devil now continues to seek to devour souls on earth. The first resurrection in Rev 20, is neither the Lord's personal resurrection, nor the born-again spiritual renewal of life on earth.

Rev 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Being redeemed from the earth is the bodily redemption of the saints, not the spiritual resurrection of Christians on the earth. Therefore, this must be the bodily resurrected servants of the Lamb, standing with Him on heavenly Mt Sion.

Heb 12:18
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, ".

As you rightly quote, the 144,000 on Mt Sion, must be all ye Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; The 144,000 are simply the fulness of Gentiles and Jews the Lord's return, that have entered and been grafted into the Israel of God.

Christians biased toward Jews, not only have to preach a list of 12 tribes that contradict themselves, but also a resurrection entirely of the Jews alone. That includes any spiritual interpretation of Rev 14, that the crucified and risen Lamb of God would isolate to Himself in His spiritual church, only natural Jews to the exclusion of Gentile converts.

It's an even worse form of Judaizing the body of Christ, by circumcision of the flesh. At least then the Gentiles can have part in their 'Jewish' resurrection from the dead. But with an all Jewish 144,000 of the Lamb? Gentiles can't even get circumcised into it.

The Bible speaks of all true believers as being 'the Israel of God'. Thus, I see the 144000 as Bible parable language for all true believers. We learn in the Bible that all true believers have to do with Mount Zion: "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, ".

Absolutely. Thank you very much. It's always refreshing to see Christians quoting Scripture, that directly interprets prophecy of Scripture. Rather than a bunch of speculative 'scholarship' with no Scripture in sight.

How simple it is, to see that we Christians, who are all coming to the Mt Sion of the Lamb of God, must be them standing with Him on Mt Sion in Rev 14. Is Hebrews written to Jews alone? Is the promise of coming to Mt Sion to Jews alone? Has the Son spoken to Jews alone?

Heb 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Luk 7:9
When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

When Joshua goes across the Jordan with the twelve Israelite tribes it is a parable picture in the Bible of Jesus crossing beyond the judgment with all true believers unharmed. The name Jordan means 'judgment'. The name Joshua means 'Jehova is salvation' and so does the name Jesus. And all believers are called Jews and Israelites in the Bible. So, Jesus takes all true believers over the judgment unharmed. All in Christ have passed from darkness to light and will not come under condemnation.

This is a new interpretation to me, that at least sounds right for now. It'll certainly have the Judaizers' heads spinning for daring to compare all Jesus-following Christians today, with the Israelites following Joshua across the Jordan. But then, who can deny that the the same can be said of the salvation of the Lord Jesus, for the deliverance of all the Hebrews crossing the Red Sea on dry ground.

However, where do you get that all believers in Christ are called Jews? I don't read any Scripture saying so. I wouldn't call myself a Jew. But, we can at least say that all believers circumcised by Christ, are certainly Jews inwardly, while unbelieving outward Jews are no more Jews at all to the Spirit of Christ:

Rom 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

All born again Christians circumcised by the Spirit, being Jews inwardly, certainly answers to all Christian servants of God, being sealed in the tribes of the Israel of God.

And finally, as with the matter of circumcision, since all Christians believers walking with Christ are all the children of Abraham by faith, then we are certainly also the children of Isaac and Israel by the Spirit of God.

Gal 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Is Galatians also only written to the Jews? No, since the Gentiles with the faith of Abraham are also children of Abraham, and of Isaac's promise by the Spirit of Christ.

 

[Aaron56]

Exactly. Jesus was not a firstfruit of the church, but of the resurrection from the dead. Which would next be the church at His return.

Jesus was not redeemed by God, nor did He redeem Himself...

Yep. Nor was He called out of the world. He never was of the world.

 

[FlyingDove]

Only in the OT, and when specified in the NT. Otherwise, the NT Israel of God is not all Israel after the flesh, and the Lamb's tribes, are not only sons of Jacob.

Rom 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

In the NT gospel of Jesus Christ, not all Israel after the flesh, is the Israel of God.

Saying that the 144,000 Israelites of God in Rev 7 and 14, are only Jewish sons of Jacob, is making the NT word of God of none effect. It nullifies the gospel and redemption of Jesus Christ to whosever repents, to be a new national covenant of natural Jews, to the exclusion of natural Gentiles.

Saying that the list of tribes of Israel in Rev 7, is the list of OT tribes of Jacob, also feeds into the accusation of nonbelievers, that the Bible in Rev 7 contradicts all of the OT, where Dan is always listed as one of the tribes of Jacob, and etched in stone on the high priest's breastplate.

Jhn 1:47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

The 144k are all Israelites of God indeed! Both Jew and Greek.

Find here a 100% Copy & Paste - KJ Version
Rec 7:
4 And I heard how many were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand; [twelve thousand] sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 Twelve thousand were sealed from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,
6 twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,
8 twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed (marked, redeemed, protected).


ATG, Rev 7 doesn’t leave room for "spiritualizing" the TRIBES, listed in every verse. John names them one by one & counts 12k from each. He is describing literal Israel/Jacob’s descendants. If it were symbolic & includes Gentiles, why bother repeatedly listing them as tribes?

Rom 11:1–2 Paul says plainly states he’s from the "TRIBE of Benjamin" & that God has not cast away ISRAEL His covenant people!

Rom 9:6 doesn’t erase Israel’s identity; it distinguishes believing Jews from unbelieving ones. Never citing Gentiles as "TRIBES."

The omission of Dan. It's deliberate because of idolatry (Judges 18), not a contradiction.

Bottom line: the 144k cited in Rev 7 are literal Israelites, sealed for a specific purpose. Rev 7 as written by John is about Jacob/Israel's tribes, exactly as written.

 

[ATG]

ATG, Rev 7 doesn’t leave room for "spiritualizing" the TRIBES, listed in every verse. John names them one by one & counts 12k from each. He is describing literal Israel/Jacob’s descendants. If it were symbolic & includes Gentiles, why bother repeatedly listing them as tribes?

You can keep denying that the Israel of God is now all Jews and Gentiles grafted therein. And that God makes no difference between Jew and Gentile in the body of His crucified and resurrected Christ.

You can also keep denying that the listed tribes in Rev 7, are not the same listed tribes in all of the OT.

You can also continue adding fodder to the nonbelievers, that use Rev 7 to accuse the Bible of contradicting it's own lists. Especially the unbelieving OT Jews that mock the NT writers, for not even being able to get the OT 12 tribe list straight.

FlyingDove said:

Rom 11:1–2 Paul says plainly states he’s from the "TRIBE of Benjamin" & that God has not cast away ISRAEL His covenant people!

Rom 9:6 doesn’t erase Israel’s identity;

Correct. natural Israelites can still be grafted into the new Israel of God in Christ Jesus. No one is arguing for the exclusion of Jews, but only against the exclusion of Gentiles in the body and service of out Lord Jesus.

Rev 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

it distinguishes believing Jews from unbelieving ones.

False. NT Scripture forbids distinguishing between Jews and Gentiles, even men and women, in the churches of God.

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Willingness to disannul NT gospel and doctrine for interpretation of prophecy, is the blind spot of Christians favoring the flesh.

Never citing Gentiles as "TRIBES."

False. You can also deny and remain blind to the Scripture given otherwise, at the Lord's return and sealing of His 144,000 servants.

The omission of Dan. It's deliberate because of idolatry (Judges 18), not a contradiction.

False. You can also deny and remain blind to the Scriptural rebuke of this false accusation against the tribe of Dan.

Bottom line: the 144k cited in Rev 7 are literal Israelites, sealed for a specific purpose.

Correct. Bottom line: the 144k cited in Rev 7 are literal Israelites of God, sealed for the specific purpose, of resurrecting all the Israel of God:

Rev 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 7 as written by John is about Jacob/Israel's tribes, exactly as written.

False, don't read of Jacob anywhere in Rev 7 nor 14.

Only of the children of the Israel of God having the seal and name of the living God in their foreheads, while standing with the crucified and risen Lamb of God on Mt Sion.

 

[FlyingDove]

You can also keep denying that the listed tribes in Rev 7, are not the same listed tribes in all of the OT.

You can also continue adding fodder to the nonbelievers, that use Rev 7 to accuse the Bible of contradicting it's own lists. Especially the unbelieving OT Jews that mock the NT writers, for not even being able to get the OT 12 tribe list straight.

You're the one claiming the Ren 7 tribes are not same listed tribes in all of the OT. The list is straight (BTW I didn't write it, John did).

Again, find here a 100% Copy & Paste - KJ Version
Rec 7:
4 And I heard how many were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand; [twelve thousand] sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 Twelve thousand were sealed from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,
6 twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,
8 twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed (marked, redeemed, protected).

REREADING vs 4, """from every tribe of the sons of Israel""". The next 4 verses name the exact TRIBE referenced!

Rev 7 doesn’t agree with your mental gymnastics of "spiritualizing" the TRIBES that John lists in every verse. He (not me- not you) names them one by one & counts 12k from each. He presents a literal Israel I.E. Jacob’s descendants. If it were symbolic & includes Gentiles, why bother repeatedly listing them as tribes?

Bottom line: John's God breathed writings cites the Rev 7 144k are literal Israelites, sealed for a specific purpose. Rev 7 is about Jacob/Israel's tribes, exactly as written.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

In Rev 7, the 144,000 are sealed in the forehead on earth. In Rev 14 the 144,000 are sealed with the name of the Father, and they are now standing with the Lamb of God on Mt Sion.

144,000 people are the jews. They are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel.

 

[Mem]

Why are the 144K sealed?
The four angels standing at the corners of the earth hold back the winds so that no wind would blow on land or see or on any tree and another angel with the seal of the living God called out to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea, "Do not harm the land or the sea or trees (or anything) until we have placed a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." (Rev 7:1-3)
...and there is praise from the great multitude (Rev 7:9-17).

Then, the lamb opens the seventh seal and there is silence in heaven for half an hour and the 7 angels are given 7 trumpets and another angel with the golden censor containing the prayer of the saints fills it with fire from the alter and hurls it to the earth. (Rev 8:1-5)

This is not the tribulation, this is wrath.

 

[Psalm1]

Our discussion was about the 144k & who they are. You have repeatedly claimed JEWS. Throughout our exchanges I have (with scripture) proved they are OT Israelites. I asked you (several times) to provide the scripture that supports your position (that the 144k are Jews) & again YOU DIDN'T/CAN'T!

You now claim Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel. Sadly, once again you're uninformed. Please cite the scripture that support this latest inept claim.

F.Y.I. Jesus never equated JEWS with ISRAEL. He spoke of Israel when describing His mission to the covenant people/ISRAEL!

Israel: God's covenant nation (cut in animal blood on Mt Sinai/shared earlier)

Jews: Are descendants of Jacobs son Judah. Jesus was a JEW! Jews, are from the TRIBE of JUDHA.

Help for the uninformed:

Matt 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus sends His disciples to the lost HOUSE of ISRAEL)

Matt 15:24 I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus says, He was sent ONLY to the lost HOUSE of ISRAEL)

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus promises His disciples they will judge the 12 TRIBES of ISRAEL).

Luke 22:30 You may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus tells His disciples in His coming kingdom, they will sit on thrones, judging the 12 TRIBES of ISRAEL)

Repeatedly! Jesus, uses ISRAEL to describe the covenant people descended from Jacob, harmonizing continuity with the Old Testament.

Your turn, time to cite the scripture that supports your latest ignorant claim. That Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel.

More help:
The word JEW comes from Judean = descendants of Judah, ONE of Israel’s 12 tribes).

There are NT writers where JEW or JEWS often refers to religious leaders or groups opposing Jesus. The usage is more sectarian or descriptive of ethnicity & NOT interchangeable with ISRAEL. And defiantly NOT applicable to the 144k

You keep trying, even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. FD

They are 100% ISRAELITES.
100%

Jesus and Paul called them JEWS.
Are they incorrect?
Is the bible incorrect ?

 

[Psalm1]

Correct. Israelites of God. Not Israel after the flesh.

Gal 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


False.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

At the Lord's return, all the tribes of the earth, are all the tribes of all nations on earth.

The tribes of Israel of God are distinguished from the tribes of the earth, even as the holy nation of the Israel of God, is now distinguished from nations of the earth.

1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:




Only in the OT, and when specified in the NT. Otherwise, the NT Israel of God is not all Israel after the flesh, and the Lamb's tribes, are not only sons of Jacob.

Rom 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

In the NT gospel of Jesus Christ, not all Israel after the flesh, is the Israel of God.

Saying that the 144,000 Israelites of God in Rev 7 and 14, are only Jewish sons of Jacob, is making the NT word of God of none effect. It nullifies the gospel and redemption of Jesus Christ to whosever repents, to be a new national covenant of natural Jews, to the exclusion of natural Gentiles.

Saying that the list of tribes of Israel in Rev 7, is the list of OT tribes of Jacob, also feeds into the accusation of nonbelievers, that the Bible in Rev 7 contradicts all of the OT, where Dan is always listed as one of the tribes of Jacob, and etched in stone on the high priest's breastplate.

Jhn 1:47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

The 144k are all Israelites of God indeed! Both Jew and Greek.

No.
The tribes are all Jewish.
"Israelites" if the word "Jew" is too upsetting.

Sigh
1) the times of the Gentiles ends at the start of the 7 yr trib..
2) apart from the pretrib rapture, most members here stumble and fail at the 144,000.
That is why you need the 144,000 to be Greeks.

The 144,000 ONLY FIT PRETRIB RAPTURE.

Only pretribbers can say WHO the 144K are.
Amazing.

 

[memberofthebride]

I provided the scripture that clearly cites who the 144k are > ISRAELITES!

And there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the TRIBES of the CHILDREN of ISRAEL!

Rev 7:
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand """of all the tribes of the children of Israel""".

5 Of the ""tribe of Juda"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Reuben"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Gad" were sealed twelve thousand.
(MY NOTE: Juda, Reuben & Gad = 3)

6 Of the ""tribe of Aser"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Nepthalim"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Manasses"" were sealed twelve thousand.
(MY NOTE: Aser, Nepthalim & Manasses = 6)

7 Of the ""tribe of Simeon"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Levi"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Issachar"" were sealed twelve thousand.
(MY NOTE: Simeon, Levi & Issachar = 9)

8 Of the ""tribe of Zabulon"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Joseph"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Benjamin"" were sealed twelve thousand.
(MY NOTE: Zabulon, Joseph & Benjamin = 12)

The 12 TRIBE 144k are 100% ISRAELITES!

KJV Dictionary Definition: TRIBE, n. L. tribus.

1. A family, race or series of generations, descending from the same progenitor and kept distinct, as in the case of the twelve tribes of Israel, descended from the twelve sons of Jacob.

Vines Bible Dictionary of New Testament Words: TRIBE

a) The word "tribe" is never used in the Bible to refer gentiles. As follows: "Tribe" is found 297 times in the Bible, and ""every time"" it refers to the Israelites.

Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 TRIBES of Israel are Jacob's sons. The 144k are 100% ISRAELITES!

Your turn, provide the verses that cite the 144k as Jews.

Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 TRIBES of Israel are Jacob's sons. The 144k are 100% ISRAELITES!

Comment:


""Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 TRIBES of Israel are Jacob's sons. The 144k are 100% ISRAELITES! ""

Yes, the 12 tribes are Israelite's, because they are sons of Jacob, but since all came from Abraham they are racially Hebrews. the 144,000 are Hebrews, the 12 tribes are Hebrews. the "great multitude" in Revelation 7, are all races.

Any one that believes God does not know each and every one of HIS Chosen people, where they are and who they are by name --- does not understand God's power. The "lost 10 Tribes" are not lost to God only to the 10.

 

[Psalm1]

Our discussion was about the 144k & who they are. You have repeatedly claimed JEWS. Throughout our exchanges I have (with scripture) proved they are OT Israelites. I asked you (several times) to provide the scripture that supports your position (that the 144k are Jews) & again YOU DIDN'T/CAN'T!

You now claim Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel. Sadly, once again you're uninformed. Please cite the scripture that support this latest inept claim.

F.Y.I. Jesus never equated JEWS with ISRAEL. He spoke of Israel when describing His mission to the covenant people/ISRAEL!

Israel: God's covenant nation (cut in animal blood on Mt Sinai/shared earlier)

Jews: Are descendants of Jacobs son Judah. Jesus was a JEW! Jews, are from the TRIBE of JUDHA.

Help for the uninformed:

Matt 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus sends His disciples to the lost HOUSE of ISRAEL)

Matt 15:24 I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus says, He was sent ONLY to the lost HOUSE of ISRAEL)

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus promises His disciples they will judge the 12 TRIBES of ISRAEL).

Luke 22:30 You may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus tells His disciples in His coming kingdom, they will sit on thrones, judging the 12 TRIBES of ISRAEL)

Repeatedly! Jesus, uses ISRAEL to describe the covenant people descended from Jacob, harmonizing continuity with the Old Testament.

Your turn, time to cite the scripture that supports your latest ignorant claim. That Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel.

More help:
The word JEW comes from Judean = descendants of Judah, ONE of Israel’s 12 tribes).

There are NT writers where JEW or JEWS often refers to religious leaders or groups opposing Jesus. The usage is more sectarian or descriptive of ethnicity & NOT interchangeable with ISRAEL. And defiantly NOT applicable to the 144k

You keep trying, even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. FD

QUOTE
""Repeatedly! Jesus, uses ISRAEL to describe the covenant people descended from Jacob, harmonizing continuity with the Old Testament.""

Nobody on this board would disagree.

BUT JESUS AND PAUL CALLED THEM JEWS OVER 100 TIMES IN THE NT.
Over 100 verses.
What to do?????
Tear out those pages to suit your doctrine???

Matthew 2:2
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews?
Matthew 2:2
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews?
Luke 23:5
And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place
John 1:19
And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
John 3:1
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews
John 5:15
The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole
John 6:4
And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh
Acts 9:23
And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:
Acts 12:3
And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also.
1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
2 Corinthians 11:24
Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

There Is over a hundred of them that you stumble over.
I only posted a tiny part.


I already told you Jesus and Paul called the Israelite, Hebrew, (or whatever you need them to be) ...."JEWS."
Who told you there were no verses labeling Israelis as Jews????
If you need all of them do a tiny study.

IS JESUS WRONG?
IS PAUL WRONG?
IS THE BIBLE WRONG?

KEEP SIDESTEPPING.
Even a blind cat finds a mouse ever so often.

Stop and ask yourself if it is worth the confusion your doctrine introduces, where your teachers have convinced you to misplace the 144,000 JEWS/ISRAELITES.

I can use EITHER LABEL....
Ahem......kinda like how Jesus did.

 

[Psalm1]

Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 TRIBES of Israel are Jacob's sons. The 144k are 100% ISRAELITES!

Comment:


""Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 TRIBES of Israel are Jacob's sons. The 144k are 100% ISRAELITES! ""

Yes, the 12 tribes are Israelite's, because they are sons of Jacob, but since all came from Abraham they are racially Hebrews. the 144,000 are Hebrews, the 12 tribes are Hebrews. the "great multitude" in Revelation 7, are all races.

Any one that believes God does not know each and every one of HIS Chosen people, where they are and who they are by name --- does not understand God's power. The "lost 10 Tribes" are not lost to God only to the 10.

FlyingDove is thinking they can not be labeled as Jews
He/she thinks that I need to be corrected, by the egregious sin I committed by labeling the 144,000 as "jews"

Yes yes yes...we ALL KNOW THEY ARE HEBREWS OR ISRAELITES.

I NEVER HAVE disputed it.

Jesus INTERCHANGED "jew" and "Israel"

No foul.

 

[FlyingDove]

They are 100% ISRAELITES.
100%

Jesus and Paul called them JEWS.
Are they incorrect?
Is the bible incorrect ?

You claim Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel. Sadly, once again you're uninformed. Please cite the scripture that support this latest inept claim.

F.Y.I. Jesus never equated JEWS with ISRAEL. He spoke of Israel when describing His mission to the covenant people/ISRAEL!

Israel: God's covenant nation (cut in animal blood on Mt Sinai/shared earlier)

Jews: Are descendants of Jacobs son Judah. Jesus was a JEW! Jews, are from the TRIBE of JUDHA.

Help for the uninformed:

Matt 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus sends His disciples to the lost HOUSE of ISRAEL)

Matt 15:24 I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus says, He was sent ONLY to the lost HOUSE of ISRAEL)

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus promises His disciples they will judge the 12 TRIBES of ISRAEL).

Luke 22:30 You may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus tells His disciples in His coming kingdom, they will sit on thrones, judging the 12 TRIBES of ISRAEL)

Repeatedly! Jesus, uses ISRAEL to describe the covenant people descended from Jacob, harmonizing continuity with the Old Testament.

You now claim Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel. Please cite the scripture that support this latest inept claim.

F.Y.I. Jesus never equated JEWS with ISRAEL. He spoke of Israel when describing His mission to the covenant people/ISRAEL!

Israel: God's covenant nation (cut in animal blood on Mt Sinai/shared earlier)

Jews: Are descendants of Jacobs son Judah. Jesus was a JEW! Jews, are from the TRIBE of JUDHA.

Jesus said verses:

Matt 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus sends His disciples to the lost HOUSE of ISRAEL)

Matt 15:24 I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus says, He was sent ONLY to the lost HOUSE of ISRAEL)

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus promises His disciples they will judge the 12 TRIBES of ISRAEL).

Luke 22:30 You may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus tells His disciples in His coming kingdom, they will sit on thrones, judging the 12 TRIBES of ISRAEL)

Repeatedly! Jesus, uses ISRAEL to describe the nation of covenant people descended from Jacob, harmonizing continuity with the Old Testament.

Your turn, cite the scripture that supports your latest claim. That Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel.

 

[Psalm1]

Well well well
Ignore every explanation I give of verses, then go on to say more stuff without verse no explanation.

Until you begin to do at least one of the above, then you've unfortunately made yourself entirely irrelevant and useless to me. And that takes a lot of stuff about nothing.

The pretrib rapture doctrine is easy to defend.
I can go toe to toe with any of you.
Easy peezy.
Pick a verse.
Let's go.

 

[FlyingDove]

Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 TRIBES of Israel are Jacob's sons. The 144k are 100% ISRAELITES!

Comment:


""Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 TRIBES of Israel are Jacob's sons. The 144k are 100% ISRAELITES! ""

Yes, the 12 tribes are Israelite's, because they are sons of Jacob, but since all came from Abraham they are racially Hebrews. the 144,000 are Hebrews, the 12 tribes are Hebrews. the "great multitude" in Revelation 7, are all races.

I disagree, you're mixing spiritual with physical. Find here the covenant God cuts with the PHYSICAL COLLECTIVE nation of Israel:

Ex 24:3 “And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.”

Ex 24:7 “And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.”

Ex 24:8 “And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”
(MY NOTE: Vs 3&4 They ALL AGREE! Vs 8 Covenant cut in blood)

A new better covenant, accessed individually thru Abraham like FAITH:
Heb 8:6–13, 9:11–15, 12:24, all emphasizing that Christ’s blood brings forgiveness & eternal redemption beyond what the Sinai animal sacrifices covenant could achieve.

The OT Israelites weren't indwelt/filled with the Holy Spirit. The spiritual aspect can't happen until Jesus pay's sins required price.

Amp Bible
Jn 7:39 But He was speaking of the [Holy] Spirit, whom those who BELIEVED in Him [as Savior] were to receive afterward. The Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).

 

[FlyingDove]

QUOTE
""Repeatedly! Jesus, uses ISRAEL to describe the covenant people descended from Jacob, harmonizing continuity with the Old Testament.""

Nobody on this board would disagree.

BUT JESUS AND PAUL CALLED THEM JEWS OVER 100 TIMES IN THE NT.
Over 100 verses.
What to do?????
Tear out those pages to suit your doctrine???

Matthew 2:2
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews?
Matthew 2:2
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews?
Luke 23:5
And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place
John 1:19
And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
John 3:1
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews
John 5:15
The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole
John 6:4
And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh
Acts 9:23
And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:
Acts 12:3
And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also.
1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
2 Corinthians 11:24
Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

There Is over a hundred of them that you stumble over.
I only posted a tiny part.


I already told you Jesus and Paul called the Israelite, Hebrew, (or whatever you need them to be) ...."JEWS."
Who told you there were no verses labeling Israelis as Jews????
If you need all of them do a tiny study.

IS JESUS WRONG?
IS PAUL WRONG?
IS THE BIBLE WRONG?

KEEP SIDESTEPPING.
Even a blind cat finds a mouse ever so often.

Stop and ask yourself if it is worth the confusion your doctrine introduces, where your teachers have convinced you to misplace the 144,000 JEWS/ISRAELITES.

I can use EITHER LABEL....
Ahem......kinda like how Jesus did.

Jesus isn't speaking in any these verses!!! Cite the RECORDED SCRIPTURE that supports your claim. That Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel.

 

[Psalm1]

Jesus isn't speaking in any these verses!!! Cite the RECORDED SCRIPTURE that supports your claim. That Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel.

Plain goofy.
Just pretend the bible is not the inspired word of God.

I am saying "Paul", when in actuality, it is the HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKING THROUGH PAUL.
If you want to insist the BIBLE never labels Israel as Jews, then stay in your ignorance.
What I am pointlessly doing is engaging with a person steeped in invincible ignorance.
I am not posting any more verses.
I takes time to do your homework and look up verses.
Then, when posted, you basically say the Holy Spirit is a liar.

It's like first we would have to establish something to penetrate, that the Bible is expired by the Holy Spirit. I think once we agreed with that. Then we could proceed from there.
Paul : " to the Jews first, then to the greek"
Obviously any third grader would know that he's referring to the nation israel.

You..."no that is not possible. The Holy Spirit did not inspire a lie that my teachers could easily prove the bible is wrong."
He should have said "Israel ".
Then go into some basic kindergarten "teaching" on the tribes and getting Paul straightened out.
" no no no paul...you said "jew" !!!!
It is a tribe only. You can't say that Paul"

"Now Paul....see Israel is the nation, but you called them Jews. See Paul we have to go back to Jacob.....blah blah blah."

Pointless and stupid.
Invincible ignorance.

 

[FlyingDove]

Plain goofy.
Just pretend the bible is not the inspired word of God.

I am saying "Paul", when in actuality, it is the HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKING THROUGH PAUL.
If you want to insist the BIBLE never labels Israel as Jews they stay in your ignorance.
What I am pointlessly doing is engaging with a person steeped in invincible ignorance.
I am not posting any more verses.
I takes time to do your homework and look up verses.
Then, when posted, you basically say the Holy Spirit is a liar.

It's like first we would have to establish something to penetrate, that the Bible is expired by the Holy Spirit. I think once we agreed with that. Then we could proceed from there.
Paul : " to the Jews first, then to the greek"
Obviously any third grader would know that he's referring to the nation israel.

You...no that is not possible. The Holy Spirit did not inspire a lie that my teachers could easily prove the bible is wrong.
He should have said "Israel ".
Then go into some basic kindergarten "teaching" on the tribes and getting Paul straightened out.
" no no no paul...you say "jew" !!!! It is a tribe only. You can't say that Paul "
Now Paul....see Israel is the nation, but you called them Jews. See Paul we have to go back to Jacob.....blah blah blah."

Pointless and stupid.
Invincible ignorance.

Once again you can't support your mis-guided claims. I'll waste no more time with your abject ignorance. Placing you on ignore where you belong.