144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[ATG]

The number 144,000 is intentional and signifies "fullness that is immeasurable".

Your use of fullness is very good:

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

However, the use of immeasurable isn't necessarily true. At least not the same as the innumerable souls later in Rev 7, that no man can number.

Rather instead, 144,000 is exactly as you say, the fulness of the first resurrected saints of God, which will be a great yet finite number.

And at this point, since that number is not yet finished until the Lord returns, then 144,000 is perfect use for prophecy. I.e. the prophecy will be fulfilled, that the fulness of the Gentiles and Jews engrafted into the Israel of God, shall all be saved, resurrected, and stand with the Lamb on His Mt Sion.

We have
12 (the number of government)
x
12 (this may also signify perfect governmental rule)
x
1000 (perfection)

It's not a coincidence that is what John calls what He sees: "..a great multitude no one can count."

I'm still convinced by simple grammar alone, that the fulness of 144,000 is still a number, and so cannot be the later great multitude, that has no number at all...

Rev 7 begins with the sealing of the first resurrected saints on earth, and concludes with the innumerable souls dwelling with God and the Lamb in New Jerusalem on the new earth. Rev 14 is the 144,00 first resurrected saints raptured to meet the Lamb in the air on Mt. Sion.

12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

THIS is the heavenly Zion:

Correct. Which in Scripture is Sion.

Rom 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Heb 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Rev 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

[Psalm1]

The topic of discussion is the 144k. Mentioned twice in scripture.

Find here:

Rev_7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev_14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

You're the one trying to mix covenants. The 144k all rise/resurrect right after Jesus. The 144k are 100% ISRAELITES! Clearly resurrected from OT ISRAELITES! There are 12k Jews recorded to be among them. That being those from the TRIBE of Judah.

Every Jew is an Israelite not every Israelite is a Jew!

I have shared (I didn't write them) the verses that support my posted position. You're free to add whatever you like. It doesn't change the recorded truths.

We all know the ot narrative.
2 kingdoms.

We are no longer there.
So as is in the bible, Jesus and Paul used the 2 terms interchageably.

So were they used interchangeably by Jesus and Paul.?
Do a little investigation because you are trying to say there is no such interchanging by Paul and Jesus.

Do you actually think the sign "king of the Jews" ,on the cross is an omission of Israel?
Jesus was limited to the kingdom of Judah?

Or, The verse that says: "and from that time forward Jesus walked not in Jewry" meant he omitted Judah but adhered to Israel ordinances and customs?

Jn 2
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

So...no Israelite participated in Passover?
Or...was there a Judah Passover, (under some bizarre notion that "Jews" always , excludes israel as an inclusive label for israel?) and then, later on, a Israelite passover?

 

[Psalm1]

This is unnecessary symbolism, that often turns the truth of Scripture into a fable, rather than meaning what it says.

Especially when the law is put into our minds, not written on our foreheads... Likewise, if the seal of God were to be on their chests, it wouldn't be the law written in our hearts.

Where there's no clear Scriptural confirmation of symbolism, allegory, parable, etc... then there's no Scriptural reason to make the Scripture symbolic, allegorical, or just a parable. All it does is changes the Scripture into something other than God means.

Many Bible readers like to exercise our 'spiritual' minds by seeking symbolism and allegory in the Scriptures, which is not necessarily wrong in itself, unless it changes the meaning of the Scripture to teach something other than plainly written.

The seal and name of the Living God will be in the physical foreheads of the 144,000. Trying to say otherwise leads to making the bodily resurrection itself only symbolic. Which is what many readers do with the resurrection. They also do so with the coming of the risen Lord to earth again:

2Pe 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.





That's an interesting anatomical point, that shows Scripture ahead of it's time in many of the natural sciences, that were yet to be discovered by men on earth...But, the forehead is not the brain, and if the seal is only symbolic, then it's neither on the forehead nor the brain.

You see how over-symbolizing takes away from the truth, that is plainly written in the prophecy of God. Afterall, how many believers are there, that think the Lord's whole Millennium on earth is already an ongoing secretly hidden spiritual kingdom? That, BTW, would not be a Millennium, since it would already be almost 2000 years old...




Not if it's only symbolic. Symbolism isn't put nor written on anything physical anywhere. Unless you are talking about a physical symbol itself, which would of course be the seal and name of the Father. It might be a good effort, to try and find in Scripture what they sealed symbol and name looks like?

No one has seen the Father at any time, but at the Lord's return, many will see His name sealed in the foreheads of His sealed 144,000 redeemed, firstfruits and servants...




True. No one will be tampering with the 144,000 resurrected saints on earth, nor while standing with the Lamb on Mt Sion...Though the angry rebel armies on earth will actually try:

Rev 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

They will be as reprobate stupid as Pharaoh taking his chariot army down to the dry bed of the Red Sea, with all the waves standing up on either side, just waiting to come crashing down upon the blinded fools.

Exo 15:4
Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

The first half of your post is spot on.
Well said

 

[rogerg]

Where there's no clear Scriptural confirmation of symbolism, allegory, parable, etc... then there's no Scriptural reason to make the Scripture symbolic, allegorical, or just a parable. All it does is changes the Scripture into something other than God means.

Even if, though being actual events, yet having had their genesis from, because of, and within an allegory, even though real, would that make them any less allegorical than the allegory that spawned them to begin with, and which they therefore are a part of?
Sorry to do that to you - lol. I realize it will be hard to decipher so I'd be happy to try to clarify.

[Gal 4:23-28 KJV]
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

This is unnecessary symbolism, that often turns the truth of Scripture into a fable, rather than meaning what it says.

Especially when the law is put into our minds, not written on our foreheads... Likewise, if the seal of God were to be on their chests, it wouldn't be the law written in our hearts.

Where there's no clear Scriptural confirmation of symbolism, allegory, parable, etc... then there's no Scriptural reason to make the Scripture symbolic, allegorical, or just a parable. All it does is changes the Scripture into something other than God means.

Many Bible readers like to exercise our 'spiritual' minds by seeking symbolism and allegory in the Scriptures, which is not necessarily wrong in itself, unless it changes the meaning of the Scripture to teach something other than plainly written.

The seal and name of the Living God will be in the physical foreheads of the 144,000. Trying to say otherwise leads to making the bodily resurrection itself only symbolic. Which is what many readers do with the resurrection. They also do so with the coming of the risen Lord to earth again:

2Pe 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.





That's an interesting anatomical point, that shows Scripture ahead of it's time in many of the natural sciences, that were yet to be discovered by men on earth...But, the forehead is not the brain, and if the seal is only symbolic, then it's neither on the forehead nor the brain.

You see how over-symbolizing takes away from the truth, that is plainly written in the prophecy of God. Afterall, how many believers are there, that think the Lord's whole Millennium on earth is already an ongoing secretly hidden spiritual kingdom? That, BTW, would not be a Millennium, since it would already be almost 2000 years old...




Not if it's only symbolic. Symbolism isn't put nor written on anything physical anywhere. Unless you are talking about a physical symbol itself, which would of course be the seal and name of the Father. It might be a good effort, to try and find in Scripture what they sealed symbol and name looks like?

No one has seen the Father at any time, but at the Lord's return, many will see His name sealed in the foreheads of His sealed 144,000 redeemed, firstfruits and servants...




True. No one will be tampering with the 144,000 resurrected saints on earth, nor while standing with the Lamb on Mt Sion...Though the angry rebel armies on earth will actually try:

Rev 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

They will be as reprobate stupid as Pharaoh taking his chariot army down to the dry bed of the Red Sea, with all the waves standing up on either side, just waiting to come crashing down upon the blinded fools.

Exo 15:4
Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

The word is written in our dna that's why it is manifested outwardly.So when I talk about the symbolism of the body then it is the truth,and not a fable because we are created in the image of God.In the image of the Living Word.This is what has been blowing my mind recently.
That we are quite literally the manifested word of God in the flesh.The scripture is in our dna.
Unbelievable.Even to you.I believe it so,and probably not a lot of others will believe it but I'll reveal it regardless.Hopefully some will get this feeling which hits me as well.God is great!

 

[FlyingDove]

We all know the ot narrative.
2 kingdoms.

We are no longer there.
So as is in the bible, Jesus and Paul used the 2 terms interchageably.

So were they used interchangeably by Jesus and Paul.?
Do a little investigation because you are trying to say there is no such interchanging by Paul and Jesus.

Do you actually think the sign "king of the Jews" ,on the cross is an omission of Israel?
Jesus was limited to the kingdom of Judah?

Or, The verse that says: "and from that time forward Jesus walked not in Jewry" meant he omitted Judah but adhered to Israel ordinances and customs?

Jn 2
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

So...no Israelite participated in Passover?
Or...was there a Judah Passover, (under some bizarre notion that "Jews" always , excludes israel as an inclusive label for israel?) and then, later on, a Israelite passover?

I never posted anything about 2 kingdoms. I posted about the 144k & who they were/are.

The new covenant/testament begins at Jesus resurrection, is ratified when Jesus enters the heavenly tabernacle (Heb 9:11–12, 23–24) & is implemented (Acts 2:1-4) at Pentecost. With the out pouring of the Holy Spirit, 50 days after Jesus resurrection. Prior to the (Heb 9:11–12, 23–24) event. Everything is OT under Mosaic law.

The 144k are resurrected while the Mosaic law is 100 % in effect.

The nation of Israel is born:
Exodus 24:
3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.

6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
(NY NOTE: ALL the people agree to the Lord's commandments)

8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.


Firstfruits

Passover (Nisan 14) firstfruits wave sheaf (Nisan 16) For 1400+ years on (Nisan 16) the nation of Israel waved the firstfruits sheaf. A resurrection foreshadowing.

Lev 23:9–14: Israel was commanded to bring the first sheaf of the barley harvest to the priest, who would wave it before the Lord on the day after the Sabbath during Passover week.

This was called the "wave sheaf" or firstfruits offering.

It symbolized God’s ownership of the land and harvest, and later became a clear picture of Jesus' resurrection (1 Cor 15:20).

The offering could only be practiced after Israel entered the Promised Land. Joshua 5:10–12 records the first Passover in Canaan

https://christianchat.com/blogs/first-fruits-a-resurrection-easter-foreshadow.210421/

Just a little extra for anyone that's interested (clearly you're not). This doesn't change who the 144k are.

 

[ATG]

It's not a list of natural tribes. That's the point.

Correct. It's a list of the tribes of the children of the NT Israel of God. 12 being the fulness of all the churches of God and His saints.

1 Cor{14:33}
For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

144,000 being the fulness of all the saints, until the coming of Christ.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

1Co 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 2:19
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

Scripture does not break scripture so it must be understood with wisdom from above, not naturally.

"Here is wisdom" Revelation 13
"Here is the mind which has wisdom..." Revelation 17

And here it is just after these verses in Chapter 7:

Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

Exactly. It takes the simple wisdom of trusting in Scripture, never to contradict itself, nor have the least error between itself:

Mat 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
'
Not in the least iota. Therefore, we don't have to overlook, nor explain away an 'error' in Scripture, in order to justify a false teaching. The names of the 12 natural tribes of Israel, that were never changed, nor prophesied to change, therefore cannot be the 12 tribes in Rev 7, where Dan is not listed, but Manasseh is. One name and word difference breaks the Scripture between the old and the new.

It's interesting to note, that there are some nonbelievers looking for Bible contradiction, who have also argued that the 12 tribes in Rev 87 do not match all the 12 natural tribes of old, and therefore they say the Bible contradicts itself. There are OT Jews, that also find fault with the NT wrongly listing Manasseh as the name of one of their tribes, rather than Dan...

The right answer of course, is that the 12 tribes listed in Rev 7 are obviously not the 12 natural tribes of Israel, and so are as you rightly say, something else...But Christians that insist on an interpretation of both being the natural 12 tribes, only feed into the false accusation of the enemies of Scripture against the inerrancy of God's words. Offering long and lame explanations around it, only makes it worse...

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

It's interesting to note, that there are some nonbelievers looking for Bible contradiction, who have also argued that the 12 tribes in Rev 87 do not match all the 12 natural tribes of old, and therefore they say the Bible contradicts itself. There are OT Jews, that also find fault with the NT wrongly listing Manasseh as the name of one of their tribes, rather than Dan...

Manasseh was one of the tribes, so it should be listed. Joseph was not a tribe. Levi did not receive an inheritance in the land, so it is not listed among the 12 tribes of Israel who did. The fact that it is listed in Revelation 7 tells us something different is going on.

 

[Aaron56]

Just put me on ignore Jr.

It is that simple.
It will magically deliver you from trolling me!

I do not ignore those who need wisdom most.

 

[RegisterNow]

The 144,000 are the first fruits, the Great Multitude is the full harvest. It is the ultimate fulfillment of the Feast of First Fruit.

 

[Psalm1]

I never posted anything about 2 kingdoms. I posted about the 144k & who they were/are.

The new covenant/testament begins at Jesus resurrection, is ratified when Jesus enters the heavenly tabernacle (Heb 9:11–12, 23–24) & is implemented (Acts 2:1-4) at Pentecost. With the out pouring of the Holy Spirit, 50 days after Jesus resurrection. Prior to the (Heb 9:11–12, 23–24) event. Everything is OT under Mosaic law.

The 144k are resurrected while the Mosaic law is 100 % in effect.

The nation of Israel is born:
Exodus 24:
3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.

6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
(NY NOTE: ALL the people agree to the Lord's commandments)

8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.


Firstfruits

Passover (Nisan 14) firstfruits wave sheaf (Nisan 16) For 1400+ years on (Nisan 16) the nation of Israel waved the firstfruits sheaf. A resurrection foreshadowing.

Lev 23:9–14: Israel was commanded to bring the first sheaf of the barley harvest to the priest, who would wave it before the Lord on the day after the Sabbath during Passover week.

This was called the "wave sheaf" or firstfruits offering.

It symbolized God’s ownership of the land and harvest, and later became a clear picture of Jesus' resurrection (1 Cor 15:20).

The offering could only be practiced after Israel entered the Promised Land. Joshua 5:10–12 records the first Passover in Canaan

https://christianchat.com/blogs/first-fruits-a-resurrection-easter-foreshadow.210421/

Just a little extra for anyone that's interested (clearly you're not). This doesn't change who the 144k are.

QUOTE
"Clearly you are not"

Clearly you are not paying attention.
I work hard to bring the entire picture into focus.

Here you are..you DO NOT KNOW THAT Jesus called the Israelites, Hebrews, "Jews", as a ethnic nation. ....as DID PAUL.

YOU need that schooling.
You claim some "foul" by me calling the Hebrews, " jews"

Yes yes yes ...they ARE ISRAELITES.
NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD DISPUTE THAT.
Fast forward to the NT.
JESUS called them JEWS.
SO CLEARLY JESUS IS NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR SPECIAL EXEGESIS.
NOR IS PAUL.
Stop looking for some smoking gun.
Your smoking gun nullifys Jesus words??

AHEM....tell it to heaven.

 

[Psalm1]

I never posted anything about 2 kingdoms. I posted about the 144k & who they were/are.

The new covenant/testament begins at Jesus resurrection, is ratified when Jesus enters the heavenly tabernacle (Heb 9:11–12, 23–24) & is implemented (Acts 2:1-4) at Pentecost. With the out pouring of the Holy Spirit, 50 days after Jesus resurrection. Prior to the (Heb 9:11–12, 23–24) event. Everything is OT under Mosaic law.

The 144k are resurrected while the Mosaic law is 100 % in effect.

The nation of Israel is born:
Exodus 24:
3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.

6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
(NY NOTE: ALL the people agree to the Lord's commandments)

8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.


Firstfruits

Passover (Nisan 14) firstfruits wave sheaf (Nisan 16) For 1400+ years on (Nisan 16) the nation of Israel waved the firstfruits sheaf. A resurrection foreshadowing.

Lev 23:9–14: Israel was commanded to bring the first sheaf of the barley harvest to the priest, who would wave it before the Lord on the day after the Sabbath during Passover week.

This was called the "wave sheaf" or firstfruits offering.

It symbolized God’s ownership of the land and harvest, and later became a clear picture of Jesus' resurrection (1 Cor 15:20).

The offering could only be practiced after Israel entered the Promised Land. Joshua 5:10–12 records the first Passover in Canaan

https://christianchat.com/blogs/first-fruits-a-resurrection-easter-foreshadow.210421/

Just a little extra for anyone that's interested (clearly you're not). This doesn't change who the 144k are.

How profound
Well tedious actually.
You bring us kindergarten and act like your some expert, when you probably never knew the "points" you are trying to make.

We all know the ot narrative.
2 kingdoms.

We are no longer there.
So as is in the bible, Jesus and Paul used the 2 terms interchageably.

So were they used interchangeably by Jesus and Paul.?
Do a little investigation because you are trying to say there is no such interchanging by Paul and Jesus.

Do you actually think the sign "king of the Jews" ,on the cross is an omission of Israel?
Jesus was limited to the kingdom of Judah?

Or, The verse that says: "and from that time forward Jesus walked not in Jewry" meant he omitted Judah but adhered to Israel ordinances and customs?

Jn 2
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

So...no Israelite participated in Passover?
Or...was there a Judah Passover, (under some bizarre notion that "Jews" always , excludes israel as an inclusive label for israel?) and then, later on, a Israelite passover?

^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^

FD never addressed the fact that Jesus and Paul ,used "Jew" to refer to Israel.

No smoking gun.

 

[Psalm1]

Your use of fullness is very good:

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

However, the use of immeasurable isn't necessarily true. At least not the same as the innumerable souls later in Rev 7, that no man can number.

Rather instead, 144,000 is exactly as you say, the fulness of the first resurrected saints of God, which will be a great yet finite number.

And at this point, since that number is not yet finished until the Lord returns, then 144,000 is perfect use for prophecy. I.e. the prophecy will be fulfilled, that the fulness of the Gentiles and Jews engrafted into the Israel of God, shall all be saved, resurrected, and stand with the Lamb on His Mt Sion.


I'm still convinced by simple grammar alone, that the fulness of 144,000 is still a number, and so cannot be the later great multitude, that has no number at all...

Rev 7 begins with the sealing of the first resurrected saints on earth, and concludes with the innumerable souls dwelling with God and the Lamb in New Jerusalem on the new earth. Rev 14 is the 144,00 first resurrected saints raptured to meet the Lamb in the air on Mt. Sion.


Correct. Which in Scripture is Sion.

Rom 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Heb 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Rev 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Aaron56 said:
""The number 144,000 is intentional and signifies "fullness that is immeasurable".


ATG REPLIES
""Your use of fullness is very good:""


Uh no.
The 144,000 are FIRSTFRUITS.
NOT "FULLNESS"
Main harvest FOLLOWS firstfruits.
FURSTFRUITS is a tiny part of MAIN HARVEST

All this blenderizing of God's Word is comical.

 

[Aaron56]

If we recognize the “hear and the see” examples in the book, as I posted, we will have wisdom to understand Revelation 7.

Insisting the written text is always literal prevents one from receiving wisdom. Jesus would have to be a literal lion and a literal lamb. Neither is true, of course, the animals, therefore, describe His character and the manner of His kingship.

So, when the names of the tribes are used to describe the multitude, we should study the meaning of the names, why the names were given, and how the ones named lived toward God. You will then discover facets not only of the people of God in Christ but qualities of Christ Himself.

For example: why omit Dan? Dan had a penchant for preparation for warfare. That was one facet of his ability and character. Well, in the eternal, God has no enemies. For these shown among the 144,000, the last enemy, Death, has been defeated: they are gathered to the Lord eternally alive. There is more to this for sure, this is just an example.

 

[FlyingDove]

How profound
Well tedious actually.
You bring us kindergarten and act like your some expert, when you probably never knew the "points" you are trying to make.
^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^

FD never addressed the fact that Jesus and Paul ,used "Jew" to refer to Israel.

No smoking gun.

Our discussion was about the 144k & who they are. You have repeatedly claimed JEWS. Throughout our exchanges I have (with scripture) proved they are OT Israelites. I asked you (several times) to provide the scripture that supports your position (that the 144k are Jews) & again YOU DIDN'T/CAN'T!

You now claim Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel. Sadly, once again you're uninformed. Please cite the scripture that support this latest inept claim.

F.Y.I. Jesus never equated JEWS with ISRAEL. He spoke of Israel when describing His mission to the covenant people/ISRAEL!

Israel: God's covenant nation (cut in animal blood on Mt Sinai/shared earlier)

Jews: Are descendants of Jacobs son Judah. Jesus was a JEW! Jews, are from the TRIBE of JUDHA.

Help for the uninformed:

Matt 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus sends His disciples to the lost HOUSE of ISRAEL)

Matt 15:24 I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus says, He was sent ONLY to the lost HOUSE of ISRAEL)

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus promises His disciples they will judge the 12 TRIBES of ISRAEL).

Luke 22:30 You may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus tells His disciples in His coming kingdom, they will sit on thrones, judging the 12 TRIBES of ISRAEL)

Repeatedly! Jesus, uses ISRAEL to describe the covenant people descended from Jacob, harmonizing continuity with the Old Testament.

Your turn, time to cite the scripture that supports your latest ignorant claim. That Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel.

More help:
The word JEW comes from Judean = descendants of Judah, ONE of Israel’s 12 tribes).

There are NT writers where JEW or JEWS often refers to religious leaders or groups opposing Jesus. The usage is more sectarian or descriptive of ethnicity & NOT interchangeable with ISRAEL. And defiantly NOT applicable to the 144k

You keep trying, even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. FD

 

[ATG]

Agreed. And that can also be seen by tracing those who learn the "new song". They represent the 144,000 but were redeemed,
" OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION". They are additionally identified as the " REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH"
- all of the redeemed from the earth - not only Christian Jews.
I also agree that the first resurrection refers to those who attained salvation through Christ during their lifetimes.

[Rev 5:9 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

[Rev 14:3 KJV] 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Exactly. Of course the Judaizers would say, that only Jews were redeemed and taken away out of ever kindred, tongue, people, and nation.

I believe some sincere Christians try to patronize the Jews, by aiding in a Judaist heresy in the Bible of Christ. Their own sincerity blinds them to the fact, that they are preaching the crucified and risen Lamb of God does see Jews first to the exclusion of Gentiles in His service in Rev 7, and even in His resurrection of His sheep in Rev 14.

 

[ATG]

To say "Jesus is the firstfruits of the church" is not correct. He is the firstfruits of the resurrection: the evidence of many things including triumph over death and sin and the promise of eternal life in the Spirit.

Exactly. Jesus was not a firstfruit of the church, but of the resurrection from the dead. Which would next be the church at His return.

Jesus was not redeemed by God, nor did He redeem Himself...

 

[ATG]

The 12 TRIBE 144k are 100% Israelites!

Correct. Israelites of God. Not Israel after the flesh.

Gal 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

KJV Dictionary Definition: TRIBE, n. L. tribus.

1. A family, race or series of generations, descending from the same progenitor and kept distinct, as in the case of the twelve tribes of Israel, descended from the twelve sons of Jacob.

Vines Bible Dictionary of New Testament Words: TRIBE

a) The word "tribe" is never used in the Bible to refer gentiles. As follows: "Tribe" is found 297 times in the Bible, and ""every time"" it refers to the Israelites.

False.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

At the Lord's return, all the tribes of the earth, are all the tribes of all nations on earth.

The tribes of Israel of God are distinguished from the tribes of the earth, even as the holy nation of the Israel of God, is now distinguished from nations of the earth.

1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 TRIBES of Israel are Jacob's sons. The 144k are 100% Israelites!

Only in the OT, and when specified in the NT. Otherwise, the NT Israel of God is not all Israel after the flesh, and the Lamb's tribes, are not only sons of Jacob.

Rom 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

In the NT gospel of Jesus Christ, not all Israel after the flesh, is the Israel of God.

Saying that the 144,000 Israelites of God in Rev 7 and 14, are only Jewish sons of Jacob, is making the NT word of God of none effect. It nullifies the gospel and redemption of Jesus Christ to whosever repents, to be a new national covenant of natural Jews, to the exclusion of natural Gentiles.

Saying that the list of tribes of Israel in Rev 7, is the list of OT tribes of Jacob, also feeds into the accusation of nonbelievers, that the Bible in Rev 7 contradicts all of the OT, where Dan is always listed as one of the tribes of Jacob, and etched in stone on the high priest's breastplate.

Jhn 1:47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

The 144k are all Israelites of God indeed! Both Jew and Greek.

 

[rogerg]

Exactly. Of course the Judaizers would say, that only Jews were redeemed and taken away out of ever kindred, tongue, people, and nation.

I believe some sincere Christians try to patronize the Jews, by aiding in a Judaist heresy in the Bible of Christ. Their own sincerity blinds them to the fact, that they are preaching the crucified and risen Lamb of God does see Jews first to the exclusion of Gentiles in His service in Rev 7, and even in His resurrection of His sheep in Rev 14.

Thank you for your reply, ATG. Sorry, my fault, but I don't quite understand your conclusion (above) re Rev 7 and 14. If you would,
when convenient, please share the verses you're referring to.

 

[ATG]

Wel well well
Leave out every rapture verse, then go into when the rapture happens.

Well well well
Ignore every explanation I give of verses, then go on to say more stuff without verse no explanation.

Until you begin to do at least one of the above, then you've unfortunately made yourself entirely irrelevant and useless to me. And that takes a lot of stuff about nothing.