God's design for relationship is arranged marriage, incompatible with modern society
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The comments are terrific. And Lynx's dry wit tops the whipped cream.
I admit, to swallow the OP opinion, I'd have to throw out as many verses as were offered in defense of that position.
I've tried hard to separate out the impact of the post-apostolic early church history because I'm not sure I like how they bent the twig. So just from the Old Tesatament writings followed by a bunch of Jews impacted by Jesus Christ, this is how I read the concepts at a high level through the Bible:
It was obviously not good that man be alone.
God made all the animals male and female, and the helper He offered Adam was appropriate for him. He told them to be fruitful, as He told other parts of creation. God left them shamelessly naked alone in the garden and we have no record that He came back to peek. When He did return, He graciously called out (hollered) first. That tells me that He didn't have any problem with what two healthy naked humans might figure out, but He apparently wasn't interested in observing them or making a situation awkward. Eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the only off-limits discussion. When I had a line of pure-bred dogs, the owners had to observe the deed to verify the breeding of the pups. There were times that the dogs as well as the owners were embarassed, even though there is no sin involved, which might correlate to God's graciousness to the mankind He made in His image.
David explains how children are a gift from God, a reward, and a man is blessed to have his quiver full. Maybe these women (Lot's daughters, Tamar, Hannah, Sarah) weren't just thinking of making babies. Granted, women have hormones, but maybe there was a higher calling encouraging them.
We have apostolic comments about Christ bringing many sons to glory which spring off Old Testament prophecies, like here I am and the children God has given me. We have the man, Christ Jesus, and we have The Father, both male images to us, and their desire is for a large family each in His image. We have their comments about the church as the Bride and body of Christ, but we also have John the Baptist associating Jesus with the Bride/Bridegroom theme.
The letters to the churches came at a time of persecution in some areas and self-indulgence in other areas. We do well to remember that we are reading their mail, and we don't know what the other side of the conversation was or what the background specifically was, so it might be easy to err on any position especially the one based on a few comments "about which you wrote me." Apparently it took decades for the folks who witnessed the resurrection of Christ to figure out that "this same Jesus" was going to be a while before coming back and that they needed to take this good news to all the Gentiles like Jesus told them to do.
Jesus explained that some men are naturally not parent-capable, some have their reproductive equipment broken by others, and some choose not to use their reproductive equipment (as Paul chose) for making their own babies but for focusing on making disciples as their way of being fruitful to bring people to The Kingdom. But, Jesus said, from the beginning God made marriage. I'm having a hard time considering that The Eternal wants us aiming to be single and settling for marriage. For certain people, it may be that they are most effective not focusing on marriage. We should be single-minded, with God as our highest priority and family/others before ourselves, but not necessarily single.
I imagine someone has already said this in a prior thread, but it would take Lynx to remember it. I don't think I was here.
I admit, to swallow the OP opinion, I'd have to throw out as many verses as were offered in defense of that position.
I've tried hard to separate out the impact of the post-apostolic early church history because I'm not sure I like how they bent the twig. So just from the Old Tesatament writings followed by a bunch of Jews impacted by Jesus Christ, this is how I read the concepts at a high level through the Bible:
It was obviously not good that man be alone.
God made all the animals male and female, and the helper He offered Adam was appropriate for him. He told them to be fruitful, as He told other parts of creation. God left them shamelessly naked alone in the garden and we have no record that He came back to peek. When He did return, He graciously called out (hollered) first. That tells me that He didn't have any problem with what two healthy naked humans might figure out, but He apparently wasn't interested in observing them or making a situation awkward. Eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the only off-limits discussion. When I had a line of pure-bred dogs, the owners had to observe the deed to verify the breeding of the pups. There were times that the dogs as well as the owners were embarassed, even though there is no sin involved, which might correlate to God's graciousness to the mankind He made in His image.
David explains how children are a gift from God, a reward, and a man is blessed to have his quiver full. Maybe these women (Lot's daughters, Tamar, Hannah, Sarah) weren't just thinking of making babies. Granted, women have hormones, but maybe there was a higher calling encouraging them.
We have apostolic comments about Christ bringing many sons to glory which spring off Old Testament prophecies, like here I am and the children God has given me. We have the man, Christ Jesus, and we have The Father, both male images to us, and their desire is for a large family each in His image. We have their comments about the church as the Bride and body of Christ, but we also have John the Baptist associating Jesus with the Bride/Bridegroom theme.
The letters to the churches came at a time of persecution in some areas and self-indulgence in other areas. We do well to remember that we are reading their mail, and we don't know what the other side of the conversation was or what the background specifically was, so it might be easy to err on any position especially the one based on a few comments "about which you wrote me." Apparently it took decades for the folks who witnessed the resurrection of Christ to figure out that "this same Jesus" was going to be a while before coming back and that they needed to take this good news to all the Gentiles like Jesus told them to do.
Jesus explained that some men are naturally not parent-capable, some have their reproductive equipment broken by others, and some choose not to use their reproductive equipment (as Paul chose) for making their own babies but for focusing on making disciples as their way of being fruitful to bring people to The Kingdom. But, Jesus said, from the beginning God made marriage. I'm having a hard time considering that The Eternal wants us aiming to be single and settling for marriage. For certain people, it may be that they are most effective not focusing on marriage. We should be single-minded, with God as our highest priority and family/others before ourselves, but not necessarily single.
I imagine someone has already said this in a prior thread, but it would take Lynx to remember it. I don't think I was here.
Marrying whom? It's rather a privilege in this age. Not everyone can find a partner to marry, and not all marriages last forever. If you seriously take it as God's command, what will you do when you fail to fulfill it, and not by your own fault? Not only is this idolatry, but also discrimination against singles and divorcees.
Then it's a political issue, not a Christian issue. Also, this duty should be preached to women first, they are the ones who bear the brut of this duty.
ThereRoseaLamb
Well-known member
Jan 17, 20237,3823,615113
Today at 3:49 PM
#53
Ouch said:
GOD would us rather marry then sin.
.
Umm ok, but the vast majority of people don't get married because they can't keep themselves from humping the opposite sex. Sorry if that sounds harsh. God's plan is for people to marry and have children. Not everyone will do either in their life time but it was not God's plan for everyone to remain single. Either way too far and you're out of God's will.
Well, if you truly have faith in God and you trust Him with the future, you wouldn't have worried about the future of your country, your church and yourself. Just do what you can at your best, and leave the rest of it to God, for it is not your or my will be done, but God's.
We all have choices to make, things come our way that is out of our control.
I don't have all the answers, but I do know this I will be responsible for my actions when I stand in front of JESUS as everyone else.
Still no verses to back up that assertion about Hannah? Interesting.
Also interesting how you didn't mention EVEN ONE biblical male who was led astray by a desire for baby-making.
Somehow you even manage to argue with people who somewhat agree with you.I get that you're not here to do any actual iron-sharpening but this is next-level.
You clearly don't have the right temperament for spiritual leadership, so kudos to you for recognizing that fact and staying single.
Go read 1 Samuel 1 for yourself and draw your own conclusion, I won't argue.
Also, staying single is not my choice, as I said, nobody is born entitled to a partner, singleness is the default status. God has blessed me with abundant possession, good health, stable family and most importantly, the opportunity to know him in a liberal, atheistic, materialistic upbringing, I'm grateful with nothing to complain.
Marriage is symbolic of the relationship of Christ and the Church. "First the natural, then the spiritual". There will be one husband and one wife in heaven, obviously a spiritual union, but a union none the less.
You assume I am worried about that stuff? Interesting.
You have made a lot of assumptions about a lot of people here. As i know some of those people and know for a fact that some of those assumptions are wrong, this is VERY interesting indeed.
Define "marriage" first. Is it just supposed "Christian" marriage a symbol of the relationship between Christ and His Church? What about marriages of non Christians? And what counts as married anyway? Obtaining a marriage licence? A lavish wedding? An engagement party? Or an ancient betrothal? This varies greatly from time to time and from culture to culture, what's constant is God's design for marriage, which I pointed out many times, it is for ALL MANKIND, not just Christians, it was taken as a familiar real life example to teach the relationship between Christ and His church. Earth marriage itself is rather a sign of the present age, see Matt. 24:38.
You know, there's a saying, "more is caught than taught", action always speaks louder than words. As a matter of fact, Jesus was not married, nor was Paul, Timothy, Elijah or Isaiah. Throughout church history, generations of devout monks and nuns gave up their whole life for God, they truly demonstrated what it means to be given in marriage with Christ and leaving the world behind.
It's rather a symbolic union. In the end, the bride is the city of New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2), and the Lamb is its light (Rev. 21:22), and obviously there'll be no sex or reproduction, that's what the Sadducees and most modern people, including Christians, can't comprehend.
IDK, you tell me, there is no one size fits all answer. All I can say is that earthly marriage is a blessing, and by God's orginal design is arranged.
My thought is the same I gave in #73 - that marriage in Revelation is a symbolic union, the bride is the city of New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2), and the Lamb is its light (Rev. 21:22), and obviously there'll be no sex, honeymoon or reproduction, that's what the Sadducees and most modern people, including Christians, can't comprehend.
You've expressed your problem already. "You can't relate......" It is exactly what is wrong with your attitude. One apostle was single that we know of.
Berean Standard Bible
"Have we no right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?" 1 Corinthians 9:5
One apostle out of at least 12 others. They were just as much apostles as Paul. It's pretty obvious why Jesus was single. David was "the man after God's heart". He had a bunch of wives. Your argument does not stand up.
I reject your claim that marriage is a worldly pursuit. It may be for some. In principle, it is not.
You know most Christians? I don't know of any who believe that there will be sex in heaven and I've been saved over 50 years.
You're taking 1 Corinthians 9:5 out of context. Chapter 9 is about spiritual leadership that has nothing to do with marriage. Besides, it says A believing wife, not any particular person's wife, so as far as I'm concerned, it means that in general, gospel preaching and spiritual leadership is not just Paul, Barnabas and Peter's job, every believing husband can lead his own believing wife.
As for David and Jesus, one is a polygamist and an adulterer, the other is my Lord and savior who never touch a woman, and the last time I checked, we're told to conform to the Lord's image, not David's.
Most Christians don't realize that nobody goes to heaven, all goes to the grave, also known as Hades/Sheol/underworld, waiting for resurrection. And when we're resurrected, we'll be resurrected on EARTH, where the Lord's millennial kingdom will be established, and he'll reign for a thousand years. After that is the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21. I degress, that's another topic for another day.
Everyone who's pushing for marriage and kids as God's command is the one who assumes that a partner at the right age and of the right faith is readily available and up for grasp, that's what's really interesting.