Loss of salvation???

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Did you compose this recasting paraphrase of 1Pet or get it from someone else?

Have you recast all Scriptures that mention faith?

How do you read or recast the first 2 verses in regard to the issue of being chosen?

I suspect he's getting this info from a website or group of Hebrew Roots-type "scholars" who are trying to make a name for themselves with this new thing.

 

[rogerg]

Christ was not slain from the foundation of the world. You're misreading that text. From the foundation of the world names were written in the book of life of the lamb who was slain. This verse clarifies the confusion

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Revelation 17:8​

Their names were written into the book of life when the Lamb was slain and as a result of it.

[Rev 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Their names were written into the book of life when the Lamb was slain and as a result of it.

[Rev 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That makes no sense. Most bible translations disagree with the KJV translation

https://biblehub.com/revelation/13-8.htm

 

[rogerg]

That makes no sense. Most bible translations disagree with the KJV translation

https://biblehub.com/revelation/13-8.htm

Makes sense to me. Seems like a lot of the examples you posted agree with the KJV rendition. The others either don't seem to address timing or are inconclusive. From your list:

New International Version
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

New Living Translation
And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.

New King James Version
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


English Revised Version
And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain from the foundation of the world.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Everyone living on earth will worship it, everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life. That book belongs to the lamb who was slaughtered before the creation of the world.


International Standard Version
All those who had become settled down and at home, living on the earth, will worship it, everyone whose name had not been written in the Book of Life belonging to the lamb that had been slaughtered since the foundation of the world.

 

[Musicmaster]

Thanks, Caveman. You bring up some good points.

Generally speaking, I'm still waiting for the salvation-loss supporters out there to tell/show me how they know they're saved right now; given that they have not yet shown to us any defining point for such an alleged loss. None of them seems to possess the intestinal fortitude to define that line so that any one of us can understand where that ellusive point lies. All their rhetorical meanderings through scripture leads only to a mine field with unseen and contrived salvation-loss mines just waiting to be triggered and detonated.

Therein is the reason I question their salvation on the basis of their fallacious, works-based interpretational model and given that they alone stand in that mine field, stepping gingerly through life while never able to show to anyone else that they are saved in the moment apart from mere claims to the affirmative.

They talk much about their security in Christ but never dare show to anyone else where that deadly line rests. In other words, their sharing of the Kingdom Gospel they preach, and are accursed, directed toward unbelievers makes their sharing and testimony utterly without merit for the security they claim to be enjoying. It's a dichotomy, as @studier so aptly pointed out in relation to my statements, and yet he too has yet to show to us all anything that shows his beliefs are not themselves riddled with exacting elements of dichotomy.

Why would anyone want to become a believer in a religion that has no defining boundaries? The salvation-loss gang have nothing more substantial than their feelings and emotions as their perceived evidence for them being saved in this moment to qualify as ministers of their beliefs.

Salvation loss people, please stop dodging the bullet and show to us, from scripture, a solid definition for where that line for loss of salvation allegedly rests, and how you people know you're saved right now...without elusive and emotive argumentation please...

MM

Anyone?

MM

 

[Jordon]

Anyone?

MM

maybe if you where not to busy putting people on ignore for not agreeing with you there would be more replies

 

[studier]

Would you mind answering my question?

Do you believe those commandments have anything to do with your salvation? If so, why?

Mm

I think I was very clear. What part do you not understand?

Since God commands men to believe in the name of His Son, His commandment directly concerns salvation.

According to John, believing in Jesus is obeying God’s command (1John3:23), and that obedient believing is the God-ordained means of receiving new birth and eternal life (1John5:1; 1John5:10–13)

 

[studier]

Are you sayingnthere is a third pathway?

1) Saved by grace through faith
2) Saved by grace plus you gotta live it
3) ...

If that was a false allegations, which I have verified exists ou t there in the beliefs of some, please back up your claim.

Though some do, I'm choosing to not be provocative by claiming OSAS allows people to live any way they want. Scripture shows that responsive, obedient faith is how we receive and live in God’s gift, making our cooperation our responsive participation in His work, not human earning. This represents a third option your provocative dichotomy excludes.

 

[studier]

I suspect he's getting this info from a website or group of Hebrew Roots-type "scholars" who are trying to make a name for themselves with this new thing.

It's indeed a very simple question to answer, is it not?

 

[studier]

That makes no sense. Most bible translations disagree with the KJV translation

https://biblehub.com/revelation/13-8.htm

cc: @rogerg

Definitely some disagreement. Here's the NET translation and their translation notes. The reference to Rev17:8 is interesting:

NET Revelation 13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast,26 everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world27 in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.28

NET Notes (Rev 13:8)

26 tn Grk "it"; the referent (the beast) has been specified in the translation for clarity.
27 tn The prepositional phrase "since the foundation of the world" is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, "the Lamb who was killed" (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase "since the foundation of the world" modifies the verb "written" (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase "written in the book of life since the foundation of the world" occurs with no ambiguity.
28 tn Or "slaughtered"; traditionally, "slain."

 

[lrs68]

Sephardic Hebrew NT manuscripts:
“Eli, Eli, lamah azavtani” (Hebrew).
Greek NT manuscripts:
“Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani” (Aramaic).

Exactly, it couldn't be translated into Greek proving that the original language was not Greek even though the New Testament was translated into Greek.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Exactly, it couldn't be translated into Greek proving that the original language was not Greek even though the New Testament was translated into Greek.

The original language was Aramaic. The disciples spoke and thought in Aramaic, but they wrote their Aramaic thoughts and words in the Greek language, which they could also speak.

 

[studier]

Thanks, Caveman. You bring up some good points.

Generally speaking, I'm still waiting for the salvation-loss supporters out there to tell/show me how they know they're saved right now; given that they have not yet shown to us any defining point for such an alleged loss. None of them seems to possess the intestinal fortitude to define that line so that any one of us can understand where that ellusive point lies. All their rhetorical meanderings through scripture leads only to a mine field with unseen and contrived salvation-loss mines just waiting to be triggered and detonated.

Therein is the reason I question their salvation on the basis of their fallacious, works-based interpretational model and given that they alone stand in that mine field, stepping gingerly through life while never able to show to anyone else that they are saved in the moment apart from mere claims to the affirmative.

They talk much about their security in Christ but never dare show to anyone else where that deadly line rests. In other words, their sharing of the Kingdom Gospel they preach, and are accursed, directed toward unbelievers makes their sharing and testimony utterly without merit for the security they claim to be enjoying. It's a dichotomy, as @studier so aptly pointed out in relation to my statements, and yet he too has yet to show to us all anything that shows his beliefs are not themselves riddled with exacting elements of dichotomy.

Why would anyone want to become a believer in a religion that has no defining boundaries? The salvation-loss gang have nothing more substantial than their feelings and emotions as their perceived evidence for them being saved in this moment to qualify as ministers of their beliefs.

Salvation loss people, please stop dodging the bullet and show to us, from scripture, a solid definition for where that line for loss of salvation allegedly rests, and how you people know you're saved right now...without elusive and emotive argumentation please...

MM

Why do you assume you can invent an imaginary “line” for salvation loss and insist others must meet it? Scripture gives assurance through God’s faithfulness and our responsive, cooperative obedient faith (1 John 3:23; 5:1), not your invented construct, which is fallacious reasoning supporting your provocative false dichotomy. These wordy narratives and made-up boundaries really don't prove your case.

 

[HeIsHere]

Why do you assume you can invent an imaginary “line” for salvation loss and insist others must meet it? Scripture gives assurance through God’s faithfulness and our responsive, cooperative obedient faith (1 John 3:23; 5:1), not your invented construct, which is fallacious reasoning supporting your provocative false dichotomy. These wordy narratives and made-up boundaries really don't prove your case.

If salvation can be lost, revoked, repudiated, withdrawn, terminated, invalidated .......then by necessity there must be a a threshold/line through which this can occur.

It is not an imaginary line, it is a line that your side of the debate needs to provide.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

If salvation can be lost, revoked, repudiated, withdrawn, terminated, invalidated .......then by necessity there must be a a threshold/line through which this can occur.

It is not an imaginary line, it is a line that your side of the debate needs to provide.

That would be not bearing godly fruit. The exact threshold when a branch is no longer useful for his purposes is something the vineyard owner gets to decide.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:1-2​

​

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6​

​

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Romans 11:20-21​

 

[HeIsHere]

That would be not bearing godly fruit. The exact threshold when a plant is no longer useful for his purposes is something the vineyard owner gets to decide.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:1-2​

​

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6​

​

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Romans 11:20-21​

And what do you think "fruit" referring to, in this passage?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

And what do you think "fruit" referring to, in this passage?

The opposite of doing the works of the flesh.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:22-25​

​

For the fruit of the spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth, distinguishing what is well-pleasing to the Lord. And do not partake together with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather also reprove. Ephesians 5:9-11​

 

[studier]

If salvation can be lost, revoked, repudiated, withdrawn, terminated, invalidated .......then by necessity there must be a a threshold/line through which this can occur.

It is not an imaginary line, it is a line that your side of the debate needs to provide.

cc: @Musicmaster

I was going to go here a bit more progressively, but will answer you both:

Can you provide, with Scripture, and for example, the exact moment God determines a mind is reprobate (Rom1:28), the instant He will not allow repentance (Heb6:1-8, especially v. 3), and the point His patience ends and judgment comes (2 Pet 3:9-10)? Scripture gives no precise “line” for these events. Demanding one assumes God reveals His sovereign determinations to us, which He does not do. We are not obligated to live by an imaginary line - a non-biblical construct someone makes up - presented as some supposed legitimate challenge against an opposing belief.

 

[HeIsHere]

cc: @Musicmaster

I was going to go here a bit more progressively, but will answer you both:

Can you provide, with Scripture, and for example, the exact moment God determines a mind is reprobate (Rom1:28), the instant He will not allow repentance (Heb6:1-8, especially v. 3), and the point His patience ends and judgment comes (2 Pet 3:9-10)? Scripture gives no precise “line” for these events. Demanding one assumes God reveals His sovereign determinations to us, which He does not do. We are not obligated to live by an imaginary line - a non-biblical construct someone makes up - presented as some supposed legitimate challenge against an opposing belief.

Do you think when a person becomes a "reprobate" they are no longer able to come to repentance, that door is closed?

 

[Musicmaster]

Though some do, I'm choosing to not be provocative by claiming OSAS allows people to live any way they want. Scripture shows that responsive, obedient faith is how we receive and live in God’s gift, making our cooperation our responsive participation in His work, not human earning. This represents a third option your provocative dichotomy excludes.

That straw man argument is not at all impressive. Nobody here has promoted living any way one wants. I had hoped you would remain consistent with the vein of this conversation, but diversionary tactics while claiming that others are not understanding your points made, it serves only to avoid answering the direct questions asked of you.

Do you believe one can lose his salvation and be cast into Hell?

If so, please define that line or point for us all to understand your position.

MM