Speaking in tongues

[Wansvic]

@Charlesiii @PaulThomson

...
Logic (i.e. lack of understanding thereof). Another commonality amongst those advocating the widespread use of tongues in the church.

For the record PaulThomson's claim that you so readily replied to was false. I clarified his misrepresentation of what I actually stated in the following posts: 325, 342, and 343. Even so, many who make false accusations are rarely willing to acknowledge their misrepresentations.

PaulThomson said: (POST 339)
You made a claim about 100% of New testament texts on being filled with the Spirit. I gave two that do not say the spoke in tongues. You seem to be suggesting that unless the Bible says somewhere, "So-and-so was/were filled with the Spirit but did not speak in tongues" then we should logically conclude that where it says they were filled with the Spirit, they did speak in tongues. That is the logical fallacy of begging the question.


Your response: "Logic (i.e. lack of understanding thereof). Another commonality amongst those advocating the widespread use of tongues in the church."

 

[PaulThomson]

Sadly, you avoid the obvious. Jesus' comment reveals people know whether they already have the Holy Ghost or not. He did not say believe you already have the Holy Ghost. He said ask the Father if you want to receive the Holy Ghost.

Luk 11:13
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Luk 11:13 εἰ οὖν ὑμεῖς πονηροὶ ὑπάρχοντες οἴδατε ἀγαθὰ δόματα διδόναι τοῖς τέκνοις ὑμῶν πόσῳ μᾶλλον ὁ πατὴρ ὁ ἐξ οὐρανοῦ δώσει πνεῦμα ἅγιον τοῖς αἰτοῦσιν αὐτόν

I looked up the Greek. Jesus is not actually saying "“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

He says "“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

The use of the indefinite noun here indicates that Jesus is not referring to receiving the Holy Spirit, the Person, but is referring to receiving "that which is characteristic of the Holy Spirit", in other words, His gifts and fruit. We receive the Holy Spirit, the Person, when we believe Jesus rose from the dead and confess Him as Lord. But we subsequently ask God to unpack His gifts and fruit into our soul and body.

This interpretation of Luke 11:13 agrees with the parallel passage
Mat 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

And it agrees with Paul exhorting seeking and praying for spiritual gifts and fruit -

1Co 12:31
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Eph 3:14
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


So, Luke 11:13, rather than helping your case, supports my case.

 

[PaulThomson]

@Charlesiii @PaulThomson



For the record PaulThomson's claim that you so readily replied to was false. I clarified his misrepresentation of what I actually stated in the following posts: 325, 342, and 343. Even so, many who make false accusations are rarely willing to acknowledge their misrepresentations.

PaulThomson said: (POST 339)
You made a claim about 100% of New testament texts on being filled with the Spirit. I gave two that do not say the spoke in tongues. You seem to be suggesting that unless the Bible says somewhere, "So-and-so was/were filled with the Spirit but did not speak in tongues" then we should logically conclude that where it says they were filled with the Spirit, they did speak in tongues. That is the logical fallacy of begging the question.


Your response: "Logic (i.e. lack of understanding thereof). Another commonality amongst those advocating the widespread use of tongues in the church."

For the record, you did say that 100% of "detailed accounts" say that those who were filled spoke in tongues. But you did not define what makes an account a "detailed account".

I pointed out that it seems that to be detailed in your mind, it merely needs to have included the single detail, that they spoke in tongues when they were filled. You have not given us any explanation of what a "detailed account" is other than the one I suggested you had in mind. And I have pointed out that such a definition is question begging, and not logically sound.

You may like to more clearly define how you determine an account is "detailed". 100% of scriptures that say those filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues say that they spoke in tongues is a mere tautology. It does not do anything to support your case.

 

[Wansvic]

Luk 11:13 εἰ οὖν ὑμεῖς πονηροὶ ὑπάρχοντες οἴδατε ἀγαθὰ δόματα διδόναι τοῖς τέκνοις ὑμῶν πόσῳ μᾶλλον ὁ πατὴρ ὁ ἐξ οὐρανοῦ δώσει πνεῦμα ἅγιον τοῖς αἰτοῦσιν αὐτόν

I looked up the Greek. Jesus is not actually saying "“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

He says "“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

The use of the indefinite noun here indicates that Jesus is not referring to receiving the Holy Spirit, the Person, but is referring to receiving "that which is characteristic of the Holy Spirit", in other words, His gifts and fruit. We receive the Holy Spirit, the Person, when we believe Jesus rose from the dead and confess Him as Lord. But we subsequently ask God to unpack His gifts and fruit into our soul and body.

This interpretation of Luke 11:13 agrees with the parallel passage
Mat 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

And it agrees with Paul exhorting seeking and praying for spiritual gifts and fruit -

1Co 12:31
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Eph 3:14
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


So, Luke 11:13, rather than helping your case, supports my case.

When presented with the truth you continue to pivot. And I've grown tired of it. Have a nice Thanksgiving.

 

[Wansvic]

For the record, you did say that 100% of "detailed accounts" say that those who were filled spoke in tongues. But you did not define what makes an account a "detailed account".

I pointed out that it seems that to be detailed in your mind, it merely needs to have included the single detail, that they spoke in tongues when they were filled. You have not given us any explanation of what a "detailed account" is other than the one I suggested you had in mind. And I have pointed out that such a definition is question begging, and not logically sound.

You may like to more clearly define how you determine an account is "detailed". 100% of scriptures that say those filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues say that they spoke in tongues is a mere tautology. It does not do anything to support your case.

I answered you once. And feel no need to answer the question over and over. Have a nice Thanksgiving.

 

[4urenlightment]

So I went to this church that I was invited to and as of right now it is the only one that will be able to pick me up as I cannot drive or leave the nursing home I am trapped in well the worship is good but the thing is they were very adamant on trying to get me to speak in tongues they say that everyone is able to have the gift and apparently everyone there speaks in tongues but the thing is when they put me on the spot to speak in tongues I was praying hard but nothing came out but they were telling me to keep going but and that I nbeed to want it bad enough well in the end I told them I cannot do it and I want the real thing I can't force it.

They still wanted me to and they even had their hands on me and were speaking in another language but in the end I told them I am done I just cannot do it in fact all it did was drain me.

I admit I was kind of sad and discouraged as I was hoping I could speak in tongues but the thing is firstly they were all faking it I have been in front of actual tongues before and all they were doing were faking it secondly I just couldn't muster it or have it naturally flow out of me and their laying of hands had no power to it nothing at all

Well I came home and still discouraged began thinking about it and talking to God and I came to the conclusion that what they were doing was wrong. they wanted me to speak tongues on their terms not God's if I ever do speak in tongues it will be when God leads me to not when they want me to and it will come naturally and flow like a river
Another thing is that I may not have the gift period even though they say everyone can have it but when I asked them where does the bible say that anyone can have it they didn't really have an answer they just said the bible indicates that the gift is for everyone but said they would have to find the verse to support it
I am going back next sunday and they likely will try to get me to do it again but doesn't it seem off ? in fact is there any scripture at all to support their claims? as a matter of fact I am pretty sure there is a scripture that outright denies it isn't there?

Speaking in tongues means to speak in different languages. God gave those at the Day of Pentecost the ability to speak in different languages so they can spread the gospel around the world.
But there's a spiritual language that only can be interpret by someone who has the spirit of God in them. The language use all types of symbolism and emotions as a way of communicating that only someone with a clean spirit can interpret. Like the Ink spot test, a deranged evil mind may see only wickedness.
But it's like reading behind the lines this language. But spirits can't psychically communicate. They use our subconscious mind to communicate with us by using past experiences, images and etc. that triggers certain feelings or emotions inside of us. Kind of like using subliminal messaging by using images to help us to crave certain things.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/t56RqwbdAis?feature=share

 

[Blain]

Speaking in tongues means to speak in different languages. God gave those at the Day of Pentecost the ability to speak in different languages so they can spread the gospel around the world.
But there's a spiritual language that only can be interpret by someone who has the spirit of God in them. The language use all types of symbolism and emotions as a way of communicating that only someone with a clean spirit can interpret. Like the Ink spot test, a deranged evil mind may see only wickedness.
But it's like reading behind the lines this language. But spirits can't psychically communicate. They use our subconscious mind to communicate with us by using past experiences, images and etc. that triggers certain feelings or emotions inside of us. Kind of like using subliminal messaging by using images to help us to crave certain things.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/t56RqwbdAis?feature=share

I believe that there is a unique language a heavenly one if you will that comes with speaking in tongues merely speaking another language can be done and faked but a heavnly language one unknown by the human tongue cannot.

 

[4urenlightment]

I believe that there is a unique language a heavenly one if you will that comes with speaking in tongues merely speaking another language can be done and faked but a heavnly language one unknown by the human tongue cannot.[/

Spirits have to possess a person in order to speak in a natural form to speak with other people. Those are called prophets that they use as a conduit.
But God did spoke a few times like in the beginning, the very first words He has spoken in a verbal sound was "Let there be light". But only those who can here His voice by sound are really hearing God's thoughts. That's how they communicate by thoughts. That their minds have merge with God's mind as if they're one mind.
But many people that had NDE had claimed they spoke to God telepathically that they knew what each other was thinking like the way animals knows what we're thinking or feeling. Like the way God merged with Jeremiah, that Jeremiah was used as a vessel for God to speak to the people.

 

[CS1]

I think its often impossible to have an intelligent conversation with a tongues believer, because they don't understand what words mean, and reinterpret scripture to mean that which it doesn't.

"Gibberish is defined as unintelligible or meaningless speech or writing; nonsense. (a humanistic carnal mindset)Tongue, as used in scripture, refers to another language (tongues being plural)(also unlearned languages or unlknown) . Gift means a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present. If you use these words according to their correct meanings and according to the scriptural advice and examples given, the gift of tongues is not speaking incoherently. The gift of interpretation is not someone giving a pious-sounding quote from their own mind or a mishmash of what they recall from scripture prefixed or suffixed with "Thus saith the Lord"."

Logic (i.e. lack of understanding thereof). Another commonality amongst those advocating the widespread use of tongues in the church.

I think it is impossible for you to understanding the Greek and the context of 1cor chapter 12 through 14 which you have nor provided any biblical refute for my understanding. So you result to insults. You make big accusations but did not provide the text found in 1cor chapter that I have provided. Gibberish as you have described it is not in the word of GOD. It is term used by those who are very much unlearned of the Charismata and Pneumatikos which is being taught in 1corthains chapter 12 through 14. What you call incoherently is your term because you are unlearned the Spiritual gifts. You are speaking from an opinion but not of truth.

 

[CS1]

The post you referenced addressed two separate issues.

1. The spiritual gifts are distributed as God sees fit. As such, only certain believers will be used to operate in the spiritual gifts; speak messages in tongues and/or interpretation, healings, etc.
2. Scripture also reveals one can know whether or not they have received the Holy Ghost indicating evidence accompanies the experience. (Luke 11:13, Acts 19:1-7)

When the Holy Ghost was shed forth at Pentecost, the record indicates 100% of those filled spoke in tongues. (Acts 2:4) The same is true in regards to the initial experience of the Gentiles. (Acts 10:43-48) In the case of the Samaritans, it is clear evidence accompanied the experience. The 12 Ephesians Paul interacted with in Acts 19:1-7 spoke in tongues as well. Which begs the question, if the manifestation upon being filled with the Holy Ghost is the spiritual gift of tongues (which I do not believe is the case) one would think less than 100% would have actually spoken in tongues.

Since God's Word will never contradict itself one can conclude that tongues manifest for different purposes; as a sign of the initial infilling. (Acts 2:4, 10:43-48, 11:15-18, 19:1-7, (implied in Acts 8:12-18)); personal prayer and/or singing in worship to God. (1 Cor. 14:14-15): the gift of tongues for the specific purpose of presenting a message from God for those in a church congregation. (1 Cor. 12)

1, yes the Holy Spirit distributes gifts as he wills as 1cor chapter 12 says . however, the gifts are used two fold. 1 in the church setting and 2. personal edification. as chapter 14 says in 1cor.

Luke 13 and Acts 19:7 is two different working of the Holy Spirit. 1. Jesus in Luke 11 did not even tell the disciples are waiting in Jerusalem until you have been endued with power. and Jesus had not suffered on the cross and rose again.

Luke 11:13
"3 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”"

Acts 19:1-7

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.


The word of the Holy Spirit is fr more than what you have provided. John 14 through 15 chapters. John 1:33 Luke 24:49

The Holy Spirit Work in the Believer and empowerment are defined in the word of GOD. We limited God based on what we have not seen or what we do not agree with. The Holy Spirit is in us, with us and comes upon us. One Holy Spirit many works in the believer.

 

[Wansvic]

,,,The Holy Spirit is in us, with us and comes upon us. One Holy Spirit many works in the believer.

Filled, came on, and came upon have the same meaning. In each case speaking in tongues proved the Holy Ghost had come to dwell in individuals:

Peter and others were filled with the Holy Ghost Acts 2:4
Peter stated the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles as on the Jews in the beginning. Acts 11:15
Holy Ghost came on the 12 Ephesian men. Acts 19:6


"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4

"Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues," Acts 10:44-46
The Gentile sexperience was the same of those at Pentecost. Acts 11:15

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues..." Acts 19:6

 

[Wansvic]

...

Luke 13 and Acts 19:7 is two different working of the Holy Spirit. 1. Jesus in Luke 11 did not even tell the disciples are waiting in Jerusalem until you have been endued with power. and Jesus had not suffered on the cross and rose again.

Luke 11:13
"3 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”"
...

We know Jesus was referencing a future event in Luke 11:13, because elsewhere in scripture, Jesus said. "...I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." (John 16:7)

In the account, Jesus is teaching on prayer. And He concludes with the reference to the ultimate prayer; asking for the Holy Ghost. It is important to note what preceded His last and most crucial point in verse 13. "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." (Luke 11:9-10).

Lastly, Jesus spoke of many things in the gospel accounts that did not take place until the NT was ushered in at Pentecost.

 

[CS1]

Filled, came on, and came upon have the same meaning. In each case speaking in tongues proved the Holy Ghost had come to dwell in individuals:

Peter and others were filled with the Holy Ghost Acts 2:4
Peter stated the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles as on the Jews in the beginning. Acts 11:15
Holy Ghost came on the 12 Ephesian men. Acts 19:6


"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4

"Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues," Acts 10:44-46
The Gentile sexperience was the same of those at Pentecost. Acts 11:15

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues..." Acts 19:6

no they are not the same. John chapter 14 Jesus speaking said what the Holy Spirit will do in the believer and in John 20:22 we see they Holy Spirit given to the Apostles when Jesus breathed on them, Then Jesus told them to wait in Luke 24:49 until you receive power. Which were also Jesus's last words to them in Acts 1:8;

Come upon was what we saw the Holy Spirit do in the Old Testament And he would depart After Jesus resurrected They Holy Spirit work was not just coming upon one but abiding in them

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him;
but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

 

[CS1]

any time you all would like to talk about this online come to CC App Bible study room and get on the mic

 

[CS1]

you all can come into the Full Gospel room in the CC app. I am there to answer any question you have .

 

[Blain]

you all can come into the Full Gospel room in the CC app. I am there to answer any question you have .

I amm actually trying to get it to work for me for some reason I cannot log in with Chrome but I can with firefox but the white background is hurting my eyes and I tried using dark mode for it but I guess it doesn't work with dark mode

But I do have some questions for like for instance is there more than one way to speak in tongues? Like is tongues merely a verbal thing or is it possible that it can work in written form? what I mean is for instance if tongues is to edify and empower believers as I think it is then could a spirit inspired word be considered tongues?

Probably a dumb question but I am just curious

 

[CS1]

I amm actually trying to get it to work for me for some reason I cannot log in with Chrome but I can with firefox but the white background is hurting my eyes and I tried using dark mode for it but I guess it doesn't work with dark mode

But I do have some questions for like for instance is there more than one way to speak in tongues? Like is tongues merely a verbal thing or is it possible that it can work in written form? what I mean is for instance if tongues is to edify and empower believers as I think it is then could a spirit inspired word be considered tongues?

Probably a dumb question but I am just curious

no such thing as a dumb question

 

[CS1]

no such thing as a dumb question

one can pray ask for interpretation when they receive it write it down. Yet the Holy Spirit will bring into remembrance the word of GOD and also understand Tongues and interpretation is confirmation not new authority word of GOD

 

[Blain]

no such thing as a dumb question

And I want to join in the room but I am having issues with it with Chrome which is my main browswer because it has dark mode and works pretty well firefox is the other browser I used to use but it always lags a lot compared to Chrome and I don't know if there is another good browser to use or not

But yeah as for my question it may not be dumb but it is kind of something I have been wondering

 

[Blain]

one can pray ask for interpretation when they receive it write it down. Yet the Holy Spirit will bring into remembrance the word of GOD and also understand Tongues and interpretation is confirmation not new authority word of GOD

yes because the spirit will always speak to the spirit and confirmation of the spirit means he tends to repeat himself. like I have been writing words of encouragement or give a word over someone and I have seen him use that for people specifically like he is astonishing with how accurate he has been and how he has been empowering others with the written words and the thing is it is spontaneous I don't even know what I am going to write but the words just pour out

it may not be verbal tongues and I do not speak in an unknown language or anything but if the purpose of tongues is to edify the church then maybe that is what is going on because he has been really accurate and really powerful for those that the writing was meant for

Or maybe it is called something else I am not sure