Loss of salvation???

[studier]

Believing with all one has in God and loving one's neighbor as self, yes. We all agree with that as the fulfillment of all the Law. No problem there. The issue at hand is when one erroneously thinks we can live those perfectly.

I think you missed the transition to NC commands that save those who believe and obey God.

 

[Kroogz]

Then you would be wrong to think @Kroogz believes that nonsense.

Our means of conduct shall most definitely affect our salvation from evil.

I get my teachings from Robert Mclaughlin, R B Thieme and many from Lewis Sperry Chafer.

Far from "gnostic."

 

[studier]

I get my teachings from Robert Mclaughlin, R B Thieme and many from Lewis Sperry Chafer.

Far from "gnostic."

But, setting aside all the personal stuff, isn't that point whether or not eternal security and/or OSAS is derived from or is similar to the Valentinian Gnosticism which has been referenced?

Objectively and unemotionally, they certainly seem to be similar. But does similar mean identical? Does similarity mean wrong? Is there partial truth in most error?

 

[Musicmaster]

I think you missed the transition to NC commands that save those who believe and obey God.

You'll have to be more specific, because violation of even those commands Christ spoke to Israel cannot cause loss of salvation, which is the topic of this thread. I absolutely agree with you that there is good in obedience to all the moral and good works instructions given, but those only affect reward, not salvation.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

But, setting aside all the personal stuff, isn't that point whether or not eternal security and/or OSAS is derived from or is similar to the Valentinian Gnosticism which has been referenced?

Objectively and unemotionally, they certainly seem to be similar. But does similar mean identical? Does similarity mean wrong? Is there partial truth in most error?

Brother, I realize you were speaking to Kroogz, and I don't speak for him, but the so-called OSAS, as you call it, is rooted in the scriptural reality of being sealed by Holy Spirit, which scripture never shows as ever being withdrawn, especially given that the EARNEST of Holy Spirit given would entail the Lord forfeiting His own Spirit to withdraw salvation from anyone, it would make Christ out to be unfaithful and denying Himself. If those who believe in loss of salvation want to shake their finger of accusation at Christ for those things, which is what they are doing to say that one can lose his salvation, they will do so without my standing beside them in support.

Additionally, the false claim that OSAS entails living any ol' way one chooses, they need to keep in mind that the only alternative to OSAS is one boasting in their works of effort for retention and, yes, even earning, their salvation. If one can boast of allegedly retaining their salvation through personal effort in doing good works and/or abstaining from various sins, they're boasting no matter how one may try to wriggle out from under that charge.

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

But, setting aside all the personal stuff, isn't that point whether or not eternal security and/or OSAS is derived from or is similar to the Valentinian Gnosticism which has been referenced?

Objectively and unemotionally, they certainly seem to be similar. But does similar mean identical? Does similarity mean wrong? Is there partial truth in most error?

I think what provides some resolution is Irenaeus' juxtaposition of Christian beliefs at that time with gnostic beliefs. He was not that far removed from the apostle John (John > Polycarp > Irenaeus), so i think his witness can be considered to be an accurate portrayal of what the correct beliefs are. For example:

"they [Christian gnostics] run us [Christians] down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. "​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

the so-called OSAS, as you call it, is rooted in the scriptural reality of being sealed by Holy Spirit, which scripture never shows as ever being withdrawn, especially given that the EARNEST of Holy Spirit given would entail the Lord forfeiting His own Spirit to withdraw salvation from anyone, it would make Christ out to be unfaithful and denying Himself

Take therefore the talent from him [the unfaithful servant], and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 25:28-30​

 

[studier]

In all that is said about the Commands to us today, none of it can save.

So, when someone thinks the commands will do anything but bring death to them in this life in relation to salvation, they fool only themselves.

I think God's command to believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ can save men who obey God by believing His command to believe in the name of His Son 1John3:23a.

Catch my transition from OC to NC commands?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Additionally, the false claim that OSAS entails living any ol' way one chooses, they need to keep in mind that the only alternative to OSAS is one boasting in their works of effort for retention and, yes, even earning, their salvation. If one can boast of allegedly retaining their salvation through personal effort in doing good works and/or abstaining from various sins, they're boasting no matter how one may try to wriggle out from under that charge.

I think OSASers boast in their not doing anything.

 

[studier]

Brother, I realize you were speaking to Kroogz, and I don't speak for him, but the so-called OSAS, as you call it, is rooted in the scriptural reality of being sealed by Holy Spirit, which scripture never shows as ever being withdrawn, especially given that the EARNEST of Holy Spirit given would entail the Lord forfeiting His own Spirit to withdraw salvation from anyone, it would make Christ out to be unfaithful and denying Himself. If those who believe in loss of salvation want to shake their finger of accusation at Christ for those things, which is what they are doing to say that one can lose his salvation, they will do so without my standing beside them in support.

Additionally, the false claim that OSAS entails living any ol' way one chooses, they need to keep in mind that the only alternative to OSAS is one boasting in their works of effort for retention and, yes, even earning, their salvation. If one can boast of allegedly retaining their salvation through personal effort in doing good works and/or abstaining from various sins, they're boasting no matter how one may try to wriggle out from under that charge.

MM

I understand the interpretive systems and their arguments and claimed realities.

There are false allegations from both sides.

You're creating a false dichotomy in your last paragraph and along with it putting forth one of those false allegations.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I think what provides some resolution is Irenaeus' juxtaposition of Christian beliefs at that time with gnostic beliefs. He was not that far removed from the apostle John (John > Polycarp > Irenaeus), so i think his witness can be considered to be an accurate portrayal of what the correct beliefs are. For example:

"they [Christian gnostics] run us [Christians] down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. "​

Another one:

"Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, they say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, they hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature."​

 

[Burn1986]

In 1Peter it talks about being God’s slave. What would it take for a slave to get away. You dont get away, duh.

It amazes me how you guys love to fixate on complete stupidness - loss of salvation. You’re not even concerned about it really. You just lust for an argument.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In 1Peter it talks about being God’s slave. What would it take for a slave to get away. You dont get away, duh.

It amazes me how you guys love to fixate on complete stupidness - loss of salvation. You’re not even concerned about it really. You just lust for an argument.

I am very concerned about it and consequently strive to walk the straight path. I don't worry about it or walk paralyzed by fear, though, because the spirit is my guide and comforter who bears witness that God is pleased when i do what he says.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21​

 

[studier]

In 1Peter it talks about being God’s slave. What would it take for a slave to get away. You dont get away, duh.

It amazes me how you guys love to fixate on complete stupidness - loss of salvation. You’re not even concerned about it really. You just lust for an argument.

Are you sure you know who is revealing "lust for an argument"?

From what I'm seeing the quotes from Heresies reflect it should be required reading for Christians so they can better understand and discuss Security.

 

[Caveman]

Are you sure you know who is revealing "lust for an argument"?

From what I'm seeing the quotes from Heresies reflect it should be required reading for Christians so they can better understand and discuss Security.

The reason there’s so much ambiguity is the Greek makes it so …

Greek distorts the pure Gospel. Salvation is not “offered” or “conditional”, it is Finished and Gifted to us Freely by God’s Covenantal Love, Grace and Mercy, without any human (Greek) qualifiers at the cross.

The True Gospel is as follows:

Christ Alone = Christ Crucified = Atonement = Justification = Sanctification = Glorification

Greek skewed minds cannot accept the True Gospel because theirs is a foreign Gospel, one contrary to “Christ crucified”.

Christ Alone + Nothing…

 

[studier]

The reason there’s so much ambiguity is the Greek makes it so …

Greek distorts the pure Gospel. Salvation is not “offered” or “conditional”, it is Finished and Gifted to us Freely by God’s Covenantal Love, Grace and Mercy, without any human (Greek) qualifiers at the cross.

The True Gospel is as follows:

Christ Alone = Christ Crucified = Atonement = Justification = Sanctification = Glorification

Greek skewed minds cannot accept the True Gospel because theirs is a foreign Gospel, one contrary to “Christ crucified”.

Christ Alone + Nothing…

I've no further interest in the version of Hebrew vs. Greek theory you present. I listened until I better understood what you're presenting. I think I stated before that I may read what you might add to any discussion of actual Scripture. Beyond that, these sweeping overviews are of no interest to me.

 

[Burn1986]

Are you sure you know who is revealing "lust for an argument"?

From what I'm seeing the quotes from Heresies reflect it should be required reading for Christians so they can better understand and discuss Security.

Dude, what are you talking about

 

[studier]

Dude, what are you talking about

Which part?

 

[Caveman]

I've no further interest in the version of Hebrew vs. Greek theory you present. I listened until I better understood what you're presenting. I think I stated before that I may read what you might add to any discussion of actual Scripture. Beyond that, these sweeping overviews are of no interest to me.

Well...this endless loop of OSAS Scriptural evidence that supports and Scriptural evidence that is counter will go on and on endlessly...

MM & Kroogz get it right 99%

Christ Alone = Christ Crucified = Atonement = Justification = Sanctification = Glorification

This is the Simple Gospel of Salvation...everything else is distortion..

 

[studier]

Well...this endless loop of OSAS Scriptural evidence that supports and Scriptural evidence that is counter will go on and on endlessly...

MM & Kroogz get it right 99%

Christ Alone = Christ Crucified = Atonement = Justification = Sanctification = Glorification

This is the Simple Gospel of Salvation...everything else is distortion..

IMO your theory doesn't resolve the issue.