Interesting discussion re: baptism(s). One of the projects I've considered at times is gong back through all the baptism verses being translated as "by" [the] Spirit and considering the accuracy of such. As I recall, a lot of the times "the" is being inserted by translators, and there are more ways to translate the grammar than "by". IOW, maybe some of these debates are being created and fueled to some degree by translations.
At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?
- Thread starter Beckworth
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Here is one piece of your rambling that needs to be better explained.
Romans 6:3-4
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised
from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
You/we were baptized by God into CHRIST! Not water!
What He now is being is seated in Heaven.
And we have been baptized in Him!
Hidden in Christ from sight!
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him
in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:6
We are right now in Him!
Just as the body of Eve was hidden in Adam before Adam was placed into the deep sleep?
We are going to be bone of His bones, and glorious flesh of His glorious body! Resurrection!
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we are Jews or Gentiles,
whether we are bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:13
There is so many buried treasures in the Word to know!
But, the traditions of men keep them buried and out of sight!
My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have
the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God,
namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Colossians 2:2-3
Knowing Christ is not supposed to be boring!
Being told what to say to take a written test to get a good grade from one's denomination, or peer group.
In Christ! GeneZ
My pastor taught us exegetically. He brought that issue up.
If I recall correctly, he told us that the Greeks left the "the" out, as to signify the importance of the object.
B
Blue155
Guest
The debate is fruitful for those who have a basket to catch what he is saying....
I learned exegetically from him too and then from the seminary he directed some of us to.
The English definite article is enough of an issue that as I recall Daniel Wallace who wrote the advanced Greek grammar we used in seminary wrote his dissertation on it. So there's more to it than what you mention although that can be a part of the consideration.
Overall, it's at minimum an issue of the article and the prepositional phrasing normally used in the verses re: baptism and the Spirit.
I had a heart-to-heart discussion with our Greek professor in seminary re: pneumatology when we were working through several translational issues. His opinion matched mine - it could still use some work.
I fully understand those who don't want to hear such thinking.
Both here and in the scholarly realms. It's just a fact we must deal with in theology - many debates are continual.
Thank you,
Early Church? We have OT and NT.
The book of Acts is the building of the Church, did it end?
I do understand the confusion, BUT, BUT JESUS said in John 3:5 CAN'T ENTER without BOTH.
One (water) we are responsible for, the other (being filled with HIS spirit) JESUS is.
Some places in HIS word says baptized with or in the Holy Ghost others says filled, so to me baptized in the Holy Ghost is not rock solid phrase?
In every case, Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19 there was both water and evidence of when someone was filled with the Holy Ghost they spoke in tongues.
Which all lines up with the verses I shared, both were present.
AND also lines up with 1 Corinthians 14, Paul is speaking of the results of the Holy Ghost.
OR are you saying the early church ended at the end of the book of Acts and a new church began?
If it's not for today, HIS word would say so AND HE would have never filled me and those I know.
Short story, baptist church in Georiga, some men got together seeking the LORD. JESUS filled them with the Holy Ghost. They told their pastor in joy, he kicked them out!! They started their own church. JESUS IS ALIVE!!!
ALL IN LOVE.
B
Blue155
Guest
Not wanting to argue with you (2 Tim. 2:24; Titus 3:2; Rom. 12:18). Have a great weekend.
Good, I don't argue at all, just share HIS word.
It's not about us, it's all about JESUS.
Have a BLESSED day, weekend and Thanksgiving.
B
Blue155
Guest
First of all, I’d like to know what scripture in God’s word tells you that “laying on of hands was because it was all new and the understanding was not yet established.” I’ve never read that. If that is just Your idea, then it is nothing more than your opinion and not fact, nor true. Unless you read that in the Bible, then you can’t possibly know that is true.
Secondly, if you are implying that 1 Corinthians 12:13 is talking about Holy Spirit Baptism. You are completely misinterpreting that scripture. There are at least 25 scriptures in the New Testanent that talk about something being done “BY THE SPIRIT.”
BY THE SPIRIT they purified their souls. 1 Pet. 1:22
BY THE SPIRIT the apostles were sent out. Acts 13:14
BY THE SPIRIT Paul performed miracles.
BY THE SPIRIT we are upheld. ps. 51:12
BY THE SPIRIT we were made alive. 1 Pet. 3:18
BY THE SPIRIT we live and work Gal. 5:25
BY THE SPIRIT we abound in hope. Rom. 15:13
BY THE SPIRIT they heard the Lord and believed. Acts 15:7-9 and on and on.
This expression “BY THE SPIRIT” is referencing the WORK of THE HOLY SPIRIT. It’s NOT talking about Holy Spirit baptism anymore than Actsv15:13 is talking about “Holy Spirit”hearing and “Holy Spirit”believing; or Romans 15:13 is talking about “Holy Spirit” living and “Holy Spirit” hope. That is a wrong understanding of what this is saying.
Have you read all of chapter 12? Verse 7 of that chapter talks about the “manifestation” of the Spirit. And verse 8 talks about “words of wisdom” by the Spirit. Verse 9 talks about “faith” by the Spirit and “ gifts of healing” by the Spirit. And in verse 11 He says it is THE SAME SPIRIT that WORKS all of these things. This all leads up to verse 13 that says BY THE SPIRIT we are all baptized into one body. We are LED by the Spirit to become the Sons of God. This is all about the WORK of the Spirit and how He LEADS. Us to be alive, and live and work and abound in hope. How he LED the apostles when he sent them out and LED them to perform miracles. He LED them to hear the word and He LED them to believe in Acts 15. In the SAME WAY we were LED BY THE SPIRIT to be baptized into the one body of Christ. It is the same Spirit that WORKS all of these things. 1 Cor. 12:11
What this scripture is saying, is that we are LED by the Holy Spirit to be baptized ( by water) into His body the church. Col. 1:24.
This is NOT talking about Holy Spirit baptism and it is definitely not teaching that we get into His church by Holy Spirit baptism.
The Holy Spirit had been always working in the lives of men.
But, never before had the Holy Spirit taken up a permeant residence in someone as the means to transform that belever into the nature of Christ himself! That is what the baptism is about.
Here is what the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is to produce in us if we seek out accurate teachings of sound doctrine!
And we all, who with unveiled faces, contemplate the Lord’s glory,
are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory,
which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:18
That is the reason why sound doctrine is essential for fulfilling the reason we are here!
False doctrine can not be used to transform us into manifestations of the living Word!
Goofballs who think they are more clever and smarter by inventing things while misusing Scripture,
are robbing themselves, and anyone who would follow them. No transformation.
No fellowship with God in the Spirit, working with what is Truth we have been given.
Laying on of hands was a carry-over tradition from the OT days. They were mixing old with new.
Not that it was a problem. Just that it was not something devised for the church alone.
They did not yet know much of what was yet to be known about the Holy Spirit.
For the Church became an entirely new creation, like nothing that ever existed before.
Daily life was to be a constant learning curve in walking in newness of life.
For example?
The term... "new creation in Christ, did not mean to be made to be brand new.
It means something new, as in something that never existed before. Big difference.
We need to keep that reality in mind when we see the early church attempting to adjust
to what there was no Scripture yet written to explain things to them.
In large part, that is what God raised up Paul for.
When knowledge of sound doctrine comes, what we could only have wondered about, suddenly becomes understood.
Impatient goofballs can not tolerate uncertainty and ambiguity.
They try to create answers when the answer has not yet been given...
False doctrine is the result, which will rob believers of the transformation into the image of Christ by the Spirit
if sound doctrine were known. Transformation by the Spirit demands accurate, sound teaching.
In Christ .........
It was the 11 apostles who spoke in tongues as recorded in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost
That was only the starting point.
It did not end there. For many gentiles later on spoke in tongues with the same Spirit baptism.
“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them (gentiles) as he had come on us at the beginning.
Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with
the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ,
who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?” Acts 11:15-17
Just prior, as seen in chapter 10:44-46 -
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit
had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God."
The baptism of the Holy Spirit was to be evidenced in other ways as well.
The temporary gift of tongues was in your face overt, and it taught the Jews a big lesson about Spirit baptism that God wanted all to learn about the gentiles as being equals with the Jews in the church age.
grace and peace ...........
Those afterwards that spoke in other tongues did so after the laying on of the apostle's hands, except for Cornelius and his in Acts 10, which falling of the Holy Ghost on them was unique and for a specific purchase as was the case in Acts 2; in both cases, the church was started,1st in Jerusalem amongst the Jews and then the Gentiles in Caesarea in Acts 10. All other instances of gifts which included tongues, were the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands.
The unique and specific "purpose" was to get the Jews to realize that they were no longer the exclusive people of God.
To do so, God needed overt signs for the Jews to see.
For, the Jew requires a sign. 1 Corinthians 1:22
Tongues served that purpose beautifully.
All the motions they went through (laying on of hands) was a transitional phase as the Jewish age ended and the Church age was entering believers into a totally new realm that needed many new things to be learned.
For a totally new and different type of believer in God was being unveiled by God during the transition period from being the Jewish age, into believers becoming a New Creation in Christ!
Therefore, if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation
(a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has
passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come! 2 Corinthians 5:16-18 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition
The Amplified Bible beautifully captured the meaning of the term, "new creation." For believers in Jesus Christ were not like the OT believers in their spiritual function.
We had become something totally new.
Something that never had existed before.
That is one reason why, when Christians wish to choose to live under the Law in some way, they are totally missing out on what purpose God saved them for.
grace and peace .........
The falling of the Holy Ghost in Acts 2 on the 11 apostles net result and purpose was to establish the church as promised, 1st by convincing/converting the Jews, and then the Gentiles were brought in as recorded in Acts 10.