Loss of salvation???
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As I said before in other wording, we aren't on the same plane of what is acceptable for proof, so it's meaningless to simply talk at each other. Also, please don't take such easy offense simply by my asking if you knew what ad hominem is, given that many out there don't know that term nor the concepts governing fallacies.
Sheesh. This is like walking on proverbial egg shells. Personally, There are all sorts of opinions about textual evidence. So what? The matter before us is what scripture says versus what people want to believe. Somemthings are simply empirical, no matter what opinions there may be out there about it all.
Are you a Universalist? Many of them place considerable stock in truth being pliable in the face of the law of non-contradiction.
Just trying to figure out where you're coming from.
MM
Maybe its like the unforgivable sin scenario. There are certain things like changing the.wprds of the.bible that can get you kicked out.
We are pretty much on the same page. Those who die in the Tribulation because they were not saved during this age of grace and who continue in disbelief, not wandering after the beast, their names will be blotted out. Those who wander after the beast, their names were never in that book according to what I quoted to you before. The unbelievers will all be resurrected, and because their names will not be in that book, by whatever means, they will be at the White Throne Judgement.
MM
I guess my question would be why the warning of apostasy or falling away if it is impossible to fall away?
If you are a "naughty child" and go beyond your potential, you suffer (the plagues are added). If you fail to live up to what you have, you won't be given more (your part is removed).
It doesn't say one is being kicked out of anywhere.
My understanding is this is in relation to the Great White Throne judgement which is a judgment reserved for unbelievers therefore none standing there would be in the Book of Life to begin with hence, they all end up in the lake of fire.
Rev.20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Only if you read it as being the person is blotted out rather than their reputation or title they go by. (see post#3933 for more detail)
If you read "name" as the actual person, how do you deal with being given a new name? Will you no longer be you but a replacement of some kind?
Revelation 2:17
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’
First and foremost we must stick to the clear and unambiguous milk of His word when we run into passages that are a bit tough or unclear to us.
We will never, no not ever come into condemnation.
We will never perish.
We are born from imperishable seed.
Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.
There are 100 plus very clear verses that tell us we have eternal life and we are 100% secure in Christ.
So yes, believers can and do fall away, go their own way and even deny Christ.
IMO, the idea of loss/forfeiting/walking away of salvation................IS falling away from Christ. Salvation is based upon His character and nature not ours.
He is patient with us. And full of Grace and mercy. But, he will discipline. He will deny us temporal blessing and possibly eternal blessings......And as noted by @sawdust, We cannot even comprehend the ramifications of losing eternal blessings.
Most of us relegate Gods discipline to the likes of losing our grape sucker......It's a much bigger deal than that.....but it's not loss of salvation.
Call me weird if you will but I dont like the idea of walking around thinking im unperishable . I know Satan is around every bush just waiting to pounce. So if I believe I can fall away I am.always on the look out. In the marine corps infantry we had a saying. Compliancy kills.
While I fully appreciate a warrior mindset, the Kingdom we are in differs in that we do not need fear the enemy because if we focus on Christ and stand in His light, the enemy is exposed the moment he steps from the shadows. We are not complacent because the enemy seeks to destroy us, but rather because we have been given the greatest treasure there is and it is this that ought to motivate us to the reach the heights, plumb the depths and stretch out for the breadths of all we have in Christ.
grace and peace
Christ in you. He will never perish.......And will never forsake you. Sealed with the same seal as the Son.
Like I mentioned, salvation is based upon His character and nature. Not ours.
One more thing, if our focus is on Christ and His mind.......You are His FLOT line. You will be able to see through every bush.
The forward line of troops are well trained and advanced in warfare. They know the schemes of the enemy and are fearless.
Babes are left behind to continue training. Defectors will peel potato's and clean the latrines.
If the Good Lord has put my eternal destination into my filthy, blood soaked, sin filled, know in part, finite hands, I need to find a new God to worship!
Once again, all you have to do to see my point is read my post you responded to and focus on what I said about a few verses of Scripture, which you initially brought up.
BTW, your comments contain several fallacies, including an implied Ad Hominem. If I were to respond to each of them we'd be wandering around off-topic for some time.
Well said. The flesh always wants to make it about us rather than Him. The flesh likes to think there is some lack in the sufficiency within the shed Blood of Christ, and so needs our help to assist with our own self-efforts to acquire salvation and then continued effort to "stay on track".
This reality has led some dark souls to claim that to be "easy believism," and an excuse to "live out as much sin as one wants." Perhaps that is how THEY would live their lives, if they were ever saved and were saved on that basis as the rest who are truly saved today, but we also understand the warnings Paul made about building with hay, wood and stubble that will be burned up at the Judgement Seat of Christ immediately after the rapture.
It's reward that we set our eyes upon, coupled with a desire to offer up our bodies as living sacrifices. Why some out there fail to set their understanding upon the power of sanctification Holy Spirit works in each life that's truly saved, that is to the detriment of the legalist and works-based salvationists who think they are saved and retain their salvation on the basis of their own efforts. The Roman Catholic religion has done quite a job to corrupt the understanding of many within so-called "Protestantism," with them having no clue as to how Roman Catholic they are. So few of them even know the sordid history of that religions evolution through the myriads of new doctrines, the list of which progressed through the centuries to its modern bent upon ecumenicalism.
Well said. For those whose works all burn up in the fire, they will still be saved, but as though by fire, as it's written.
That falls off onto the ground at the feet of the spiritually deaf. The word of God will always remain a subjective tool in the hands of some, with them leveling their false accusations against others who believe in the simplicity that is in Christ in contrast to the deep complexities the centers of education, such as Bible Cemeteries, apply against that simplicity, as evidenced by modern translations and their corruptions alleged on the basis of a small hand full of known, corrupt manuscripts that disagree with each other with more numerous differences than the majority.
Good stuff, Kroogz.
MM
True, but we have good reason to believe that those who disbelieved before the tribulation were blotted out who went to their grave in disbelief. As stated by the verse I quoted earlier, only those who wander after the beast in that time of tribulation are those whose names the Lord did not even write into that book, which was formed from the foundations of the world. We serve a mighty God, don't we?
Yes. Nobody can worship the beast today. Many worship other things of man's own making today, but the Beast is yet to be revealed.
No. That is fallacious. Being written in that book before the White Throne Judgement isn't a matter in and of itself for being saved. Those who will be judged at that time after the Millennium, it is THEN that the names will be sought as to their still being in that book or not.
We of the body of Christ will not be judged at that judgement, for we will already be in Heaven and possessing our glorified bodies that will be like that of Christ. We will be judged for reward on the basis of our good works, tested by the fire of His word. Our names will indeed be in that book, yes, but we will not be judged twice. No verse leads us to that conclusion. The rapture will only be for believers from the cross, onward to the rapture. Those left behind are all unsaved other than the 144,000. Even the Jews who truly believe in Christ Jesus' death, burial and resurrection on the third day will all be caught up with believing Gentiles in the rapture. Our dwelling will be in Heaven, not the New Earth once it's created.
In other words, we who are under this dispensation of grace are set apart from the ancients before the cross and those of the tribulation and the Millennial Kingdom. The reasons for that are not so easily understood from scripture and so I'll leave that to your own studies and what you discern about that (Col. 1:20, 1 John 2:27).
So, no, there's no such thing as loss of salvation for those of us who are in Christ during this dispensation of grace. Those whose names are blotted out from that book were not saved by the time of their death, and they were not saved because of their names being in that book at one time.
MM
Because that's what the bible says in numerous places. A fruit of the spirit is self-control, not God-control. Self-control is, of course, of self and is required to refrain from works of the flesh and keep our vessels clean form the defilements of the world.