I can see this is going to gyrate around in circles... You and I are simply not on the same plane.
MM
Loss of salvation???
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I can see this is going to gyrate around in circles... You and I are simply not on the same plane.
MM
You certainly don't know what ad hominem is. You didn't like the direct way I was addressing your heresies and so accused me of ad hominem as a defensive mechanism and excuse to put me on ignore so you don't have to deal with someone who sees through your false teachings.
Please read your comments I responded to re: dispensationalism.
Please don't think I am not aware of various systematic theologies or methods of fallacious argumentation.
What you decide to do with the ignore function, and why you so decide is up to you.
When it really comes down to it, my take on that terminology I keep as close to what's actually written in scripture when addressing things of scripture. Here are just a few of many examples of that concept:
2 Kings 14:27 And the LORD said not that he would blot out the name of Israel from under heaven: but he saved them by the hand of Jeroboam the son of Joash.
Having to do with remembrance among the nations of the earth.
Psalm 51:1, 9
1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. ...
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Jerremiah 18:23 Yet, LORD, thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay me: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their sin from thy sight, but let them be overthrown before thee; deal thus with them in the time of thine anger.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Blotting out, whether it be from remembrance or from having any impact upon them in the Heavenlies, and even the call to NOT blot out sin so that they are an effective indictment in the Heavenlies, the concept is quite well defined.
So, the question we must ask, then is given that only blotting out is established, what can be said for when the names were written in that Book?
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
I realize you didn't ask about this, but it does add to what we're talking about: In all of scripture, this ONE group of humans are the only ones said to be those whose names were NOT written in that Book from the foundation of the world. The conclusion, then, given that the Book of Life is from the foundation of the world, all the other names were already written therein, based upon (and this is my personal thinking on the matter on the basis of the reasoning skills the Lord gave to us):
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
To me, the harmony is unmistakable, but the Agnostics out there can and will question this, which is fine.
MM
You're correct, we're not on the same plane and it's interesting you say "plane" instead of "page".
You're chiding others re: eisegesis and Argument from Silence and doing it yourself.
It's mainly a systematic theology, among systematic theologies, that attaches 1Cor3 to 2Tim2 - loss of rewards vs. loss of salvation.
Nothing new no matter what plane you consider yourself to be on.
I'm not planning to place you on ignore unless you too start attacking me personally with ad hominem attacks. That level of juvenality is just beyond reason and coping. Are you saying that you plan to sink to that level?
If what I said is fallacious, then at least discuss it.
MM
Those who worship the beast were not in the book. does that cover only those who are alive in the tribulation? What about all those that died in thier sins before the ac? They are not in the book either.
Rev 20¹⁵ and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Lake of fire.
Those who worship the beast are only a people from that time frame not written in the book of life.
If you are in the book of life you go to heaven if you are not you dont. So if you can be removed from the book of life you can loose your salvation.
Ad Hom is fallacious argumentation. I asked you not to think I'm unaware of such fallacious methods. In a sense I'm asking you to consider before you start speaking of being on a certain "plane".
Attaching 2Tim2 to 1Cor13 is systematic theology that some consider error.
I don't jump to proof-texting so quickly. I think a closer read of 2Tim2:11-13 in the context of salvation per 2Tim2:10 is likely quite telling in itself.
Doesn't say He takes me out, He says He takes out my name, that's a title. Whatever title you think you have or others think you have, will be wiped out if it is false. Are you a "well done good and faithful servant"? You might find out you are not.
@Jackson129
Sorry, I looked at the wrong verse but the essence is the same. Doesn't say it takes out me but my share in God's provision for the eternal state. If one cannot show themself responsible to treat the word rightly here and now, they will not receive a greater responsibility in the Kingdom to come.
I believe the name refers to life. As in
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Revelation 3:1
So people can call themselves by the name of God and think they are forever alive, whereas in reality they are spiritually dead. As inBut the one living extravagantly, while living, has died. 1 Timothy 5:6
So if they continue in such a path their names will be blotted out of the book of life because while they have a name that they live, they are really deadRemember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Revelation 3:3
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5
The verse you quote (Rev.3:1) is speaking of their works and the reputation derived from those works, not their being, so as far as I am concerned you have made my argument for me. The person doesn't get blotted out, the reputation or title they go by gets blotted out.
Hebrews 6:1
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
The Sardis church was full of dead works, no spiritual production (ie works based on faith), and had not progressed in their faith. It did not make them spiritually dead, but it did mean they were living according to the flesh. When we do that we can look good, doing all manner of "wonderful works", but it is not the way God intended us to live as Christians. Our lot is to be led of the Spirit, walking by grace through faith. The way is strict and narrow.
The Lord will confess those who have complied with the Way and confess "well done good and faithful servant" before the Father but for those who have not? Those who have relied on their "good works"? They will hear no such confession, to them it will be denied.
With the verses before that one the warning about adding to the word. God says he will add to you all the plagues of the book. Why would adding words bring about all the plagues but taking away means you still go to heaven? That dosent seem like a punishment to me is all.
Doing the works of the flesh results in spiritual death
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:13
And not going that way leads to destruction
There are many ways to die in scripture, it seems the only death you can see is spiritual. So be it. I won't continue arguing with you.
If you think your salvation is dependent on your obedience to what you believe, or if destruction must always equate with separation from God, that's your bed to lie in.
Either the eternal life God gives is eternal or it's not and Christ will lose none of those who are given to Him or He won't. If you are in Christ, there is nothing in all creation that can separate us from God. The question people need to ask themself is not, "can I lose the salvation God has given" but "am I in Christ"? If you are? Salvation is guaranteed because it rests on God's word, not our works.
grace and peace
If it were possible to lose salvation.........Every last one of us would lose it.
Does either one say they will be thrown in the lake of fire or they will suffer eternal torment?
The fact you are thinking in terms of punishment makes me wonder why you think the Father disciplines us?
And if you think that not receiving all that the Lord can give is not a "punishment", then I have to wonder if you understand what you have now when what is to come will be beyond what we can imagine.
1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
Does either one say they will be thrown in the lake of fire or they will suffer eternal torment?
The fact you are thinking in terms of punishment makes me wonder why you think the Father disciplines us?
And if you think that not receiving all that the Lord can give is not a "punishment", then I have to wonder if you understand what you have now when what is to come will be beyond what we can imagine.
1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
It say those not written in the book of life go to the lake of fire. So its a natural assumption that being blotted out of it means you are going to the lake of fire. Thats how I see it is all.
Agreed. It seems Christ's death to abolish the penalty of sin (spiritual death) was not much of a victory after all if our sinning can make us die again. We would live a life of perpetual death and rebirth (assuming we repent and believe again) until the end if loss of salvation was on the cards.
We can look at the Cross and appreciate the depth of love and the enormous cost but sometimes I think we forget about the cost Christ pays in patience and tolerance of our stupidity and at times, blasphemous ways.
"Have mercy on us lord for you are merciful."
grace and peace