One day all these supernatural gifts will cease. When will that be? Paul said they will cease when the Perfect has come and we know him face-to-face. Other early sources said they saw the gifts continue.
Are all the spiritual gifts still active today?
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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that not what is says. "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away."
The grammatical structure as we read on does say they have but they will and provides no other statement of when other than what we see in verse 9-10 that say when that which is perfect has come then that which is in part will be done away with.
Has knowledge vanished away ? no.
Has that which is Perfect come No.
Those who hold to Cessationist believe the verse 9 an 10 is talking about the Canonization of the Bible there. That is not correct. That which is Perfect is speaking and has always been The Coming of the Lord which 1cor 15 speaks on. Context. Not one verse cherry picking.
B
Blue155
Guest
Miracles/signs confirmed the messenger and the message (Ex. 4:8-9; Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:14). The gifts had several purposes. You read passages like Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:4, and there was the purpose these gifts had when they went out preaching. When these people went out preaching and had gifts, they were able to confirm the word that they were preaching by those gifts that they had from God.
In Eph. 4:12, another purpose is not just for those gifts to have a purpose for those who are out of Christ, but the gifts even had a purpose who were in Christ..”for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”. In the first century, Christians (saints) were equipped for the work of the ministry by these gifts. They were edified..built up in the body of Christ by these gifts. Notice the first word is in v13. What does the word “till” mean? If someone said “I’m going to love you till you run out of chocolate chip cookies” what does that mean? The word till is an adverb of time. It indicates these gifts (He [Jesus] gave gifts in v8), and he [Paul] lists some of the gifts in v11. In v12 he lists some of the purposes these gifts. Then you get to v13 and what do we have? We’ve got a timeframe. He says the purposes to do these things in verse 12, while in verse 13, the passing of these gifts is going to come.
“Till we all come to the unity of the faith” the faith is talking about the completed gospel system…
”and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” — These words are very similar to 1 Corinthians 13.
In chapter 12 of 1 Corinthians you see some similar words. In verse 28, God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
Are those similar to what we’ve read over in Eph. 4?
1 Cor. 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
When you get to chapter 13:8..he says love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
Why would knowledge vanish away? He says, for we know “in part” and we prophecy “in part”. Ephesians 4..”till we all come to the unity” —“of the knowledge of the Son of God”
Paul says in 1 Cor. 13:9 “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part”, but Paul says in Eph. 4 there would come a time where we would all come to a unity of the knowledge of God.
1 Cor. 13:10 — But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Ephesians 4:13– Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man
To a perfect man…how do we become complete? We cannot become complete in v13 without the unity of the faith. We cannot become complete, a perfect man without the unity and the knowledge of God, but when I have the unity of the faith..when I have the unity of the knowledge of God, what can I become? I can become complete.
What does that contrast? See Ephesians 4 verse 14. When we are able to come to this unity and have the completed revelation from God in our hands—the New Testament— that (from v14) we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting…
In 1 Cor. 13, look at verse 11. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Wonder what kind of man he’s talking about there? It’s the perfect man. Go back to Ephesians 4 and notice the similarities between all of these passages…what is being discussed here? What’s being discussed are these spiritual gifts that the church and those early Christian’s had because they did not have the New Testament. They had them so that they could confirm the word that was being spoken. When the New Testament was completed and someone could hold it in their hands and be able to have every word of God inspired in their hands, what’s the purpose of having the spiritual gifts anymore? Do we need the word confirmed anymore? No. The spiritual gifts had a purpose and when the purpose was fulfilled they ceased. And that’s why the first word of verse 13 is “till”. These things will exist “till” we all arrive at the unity of the faith. And when the faith is unified, when the knowledge of the Son of God is all brought into one, here we have it in the New Testament. We will no longer be children tossed to and fro.
There’s a need for everyone to come to the unity for the faith, to have the word of God, and once you have the word of God, Paul says then we’re no longer like children tossed to and fro. We’ve got the word of God here, and so I don’t have to wonder if someone is telling me the truth or if so and so is telling me the truth—I can know. And then I can know verse 15…I can use this word and I can go out and I can be “speaking the truth in love” so that I “may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ.”
Some believe that Paul is teaching that there would come a time when all religious faiths who acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ will be united. However, Paul did not say: “Till we all come to the unity of faith.” He said: “Till we all come to the unity of the faith…” “The faith” is the system of faith which produces faith in man (Rom. 1:17; 10:17). It is the completed revelation of the New Testament. The gospel system. We see this use of “the faith” in many places in the New Testament (Acts 6:7; Jude 3). Thus, spiritual gifts were to continue until the New Testament, the faith, was revealed in its entirety. This word would be able to protect the church from the deceivers who abounded in the first century. No more would the church be “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lay in wait to deceive” (Eph. 4:14). Instead, they could speak the truth in love and grow up as a strong body to accomplish the work of God (Eph. 4:15-16).
It is important to recognize that Paul lists two different categories of gifts in Ephesians 4. Some roles existed only to reveal and confirm—apostles, prophets, and Spirit-empowered workers who either delivered God’s word or proved it with miraculous gifts (Mk. 16:20; Eph. 3:5; Acts 2, 10:33-34, 11:14, 27-28). Others were non-miraculous teaching offices—evangelists, pastors, and teachers—whose work is based on instruction from already-given revelation. When Paul says these gifts would last “till we all come to the unity of the faith” (Eph. 4:13), the “till” applies to the revelatory gifts, because they existed to deliver and confirm the revelation that would create that unity. Once the faith was fully revealed, the revelatory gifts had served their purpose and therefore ceased. But the teaching roles did not depend on miraculous revelation; they work from the completed Word. Thus they naturally continue after the unity of the faith is reached, because their job is not to reveal the faith, but to teach the faith that has been revealed. Paul places both categories side by side, but their duration is not the same: revelation ceased, instruction continues. Ephesians 4 lists both types together, but only the miraculous, revelatory gifts ended at “the unity of the faith,” while the teaching roles continue for the ongoing edification of the church.
In Eph. 4:12, another purpose is not just for those gifts to have a purpose for those who are out of Christ, but the gifts even had a purpose who were in Christ..”for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”. In the first century, Christians (saints) were equipped for the work of the ministry by these gifts. They were edified..built up in the body of Christ by these gifts. Notice the first word is in v13. What does the word “till” mean? If someone said “I’m going to love you till you run out of chocolate chip cookies” what does that mean? The word till is an adverb of time. It indicates these gifts (He [Jesus] gave gifts in v8), and he [Paul] lists some of the gifts in v11. In v12 he lists some of the purposes these gifts. Then you get to v13 and what do we have? We’ve got a timeframe. He says the purposes to do these things in verse 12, while in verse 13, the passing of these gifts is going to come.
“Till we all come to the unity of the faith” the faith is talking about the completed gospel system…
”and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” — These words are very similar to 1 Corinthians 13.
In chapter 12 of 1 Corinthians you see some similar words. In verse 28, God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
Are those similar to what we’ve read over in Eph. 4?
1 Cor. 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
When you get to chapter 13:8..he says love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
Why would knowledge vanish away? He says, for we know “in part” and we prophecy “in part”. Ephesians 4..”till we all come to the unity” —“of the knowledge of the Son of God”
Paul says in 1 Cor. 13:9 “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part”, but Paul says in Eph. 4 there would come a time where we would all come to a unity of the knowledge of God.
1 Cor. 13:10 — But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Ephesians 4:13– Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man
To a perfect man…how do we become complete? We cannot become complete in v13 without the unity of the faith. We cannot become complete, a perfect man without the unity and the knowledge of God, but when I have the unity of the faith..when I have the unity of the knowledge of God, what can I become? I can become complete.
What does that contrast? See Ephesians 4 verse 14. When we are able to come to this unity and have the completed revelation from God in our hands—the New Testament— that (from v14) we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting…
In 1 Cor. 13, look at verse 11. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Wonder what kind of man he’s talking about there? It’s the perfect man. Go back to Ephesians 4 and notice the similarities between all of these passages…what is being discussed here? What’s being discussed are these spiritual gifts that the church and those early Christian’s had because they did not have the New Testament. They had them so that they could confirm the word that was being spoken. When the New Testament was completed and someone could hold it in their hands and be able to have every word of God inspired in their hands, what’s the purpose of having the spiritual gifts anymore? Do we need the word confirmed anymore? No. The spiritual gifts had a purpose and when the purpose was fulfilled they ceased. And that’s why the first word of verse 13 is “till”. These things will exist “till” we all arrive at the unity of the faith. And when the faith is unified, when the knowledge of the Son of God is all brought into one, here we have it in the New Testament. We will no longer be children tossed to and fro.
There’s a need for everyone to come to the unity for the faith, to have the word of God, and once you have the word of God, Paul says then we’re no longer like children tossed to and fro. We’ve got the word of God here, and so I don’t have to wonder if someone is telling me the truth or if so and so is telling me the truth—I can know. And then I can know verse 15…I can use this word and I can go out and I can be “speaking the truth in love” so that I “may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ.”
Some believe that Paul is teaching that there would come a time when all religious faiths who acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ will be united. However, Paul did not say: “Till we all come to the unity of faith.” He said: “Till we all come to the unity of the faith…” “The faith” is the system of faith which produces faith in man (Rom. 1:17; 10:17). It is the completed revelation of the New Testament. The gospel system. We see this use of “the faith” in many places in the New Testament (Acts 6:7; Jude 3). Thus, spiritual gifts were to continue until the New Testament, the faith, was revealed in its entirety. This word would be able to protect the church from the deceivers who abounded in the first century. No more would the church be “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lay in wait to deceive” (Eph. 4:14). Instead, they could speak the truth in love and grow up as a strong body to accomplish the work of God (Eph. 4:15-16).
It is important to recognize that Paul lists two different categories of gifts in Ephesians 4. Some roles existed only to reveal and confirm—apostles, prophets, and Spirit-empowered workers who either delivered God’s word or proved it with miraculous gifts (Mk. 16:20; Eph. 3:5; Acts 2, 10:33-34, 11:14, 27-28). Others were non-miraculous teaching offices—evangelists, pastors, and teachers—whose work is based on instruction from already-given revelation. When Paul says these gifts would last “till we all come to the unity of the faith” (Eph. 4:13), the “till” applies to the revelatory gifts, because they existed to deliver and confirm the revelation that would create that unity. Once the faith was fully revealed, the revelatory gifts had served their purpose and therefore ceased. But the teaching roles did not depend on miraculous revelation; they work from the completed Word. Thus they naturally continue after the unity of the faith is reached, because their job is not to reveal the faith, but to teach the faith that has been revealed. Paul places both categories side by side, but their duration is not the same: revelation ceased, instruction continues. Ephesians 4 lists both types together, but only the miraculous, revelatory gifts ended at “the unity of the faith,” while the teaching roles continue for the ongoing edification of the church.
You saw biblical truth, that tongues is for believers, you believed it, you wanted the gift, and the Holy Spirit granted you your hearts desire when YOU began to pray. " Therefore I say unto you, What things soever you desire, when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you SHALL HAVE THEM." Mark 11:24
"We, as Christians, don't need conformation of the Word of God with signs and wonders, but unbelievers do, just as the unbelievers in the early church age did. If Jesus Himself needed spiritual gifts in His ministry, what makes you think we don't? Are our words more effective than His? Unbelief is one of the favorite tactics of Satan ( Hath God said?) and he has worked it into the church. When are we just going to believe the Word of God, instead of the word of doubt? This issue clearly shows that we have NOT come to the unity of the faith. Paul didn't separate the five fold gifts Jesus gave to the church, all five were given "till ". You're twisting God's Word to fit your theology.
The gifts of the Spirit are available to all WHO ARE IN CHRIST. He was talking to those who belong to Christ, not ALL mankind.
B
Blue155
Guest
Ok. Can you then please show another verse where it teaches how one receives gifts today from the Spirit in a different way other than what the Bible already teaches?
This is about the gift of knowledge.
Not general knowledge.
The gift of knowledge was a particular special gift.
The perfect ..in this verse is a comparison with incomplete prophecy, tongues and knowledge.
Whatever perfect is...it completes the purpose of those three gifts.
Now the word itself is neuter gender.. an 'it' or 'thing' rather than a being.
I don't know when Jesus is referred to as an it or thing.
Now compare 1 co 13 with the likes of 'all the law and the prophets were until John '
And the fact of the mentioning of the gifts decreasing with the chronological order of the letters..and things become clearer.
Also..even if I accept the perfect as Jesus coming back.. you still have the dieing away of the practice of the gifts according to 1 co 12-14 and the likes of Ephesians 4...with very few churches abiding by the guidelines to practice them
What has that to do with what I posted. If you didn't notice, I asked a series of questions, please answer them, if you can, then we will discuss your question.
B
Blue155
Guest
It has a lot to do with what you posted. You are suggesting I am twisting the scriptures, and you believe the gifts continue today. I’m simply asking if you can please show another verse where it teaches how one receives gifts today from the Spirit in a different way other than what the Bible already teaches?
there must have been a billion conversations by now on the subject of speaking in tongues since the 1st conversation. it is still on the list of the 4 most talked about subjects. the other 3 are woman pastoralship, remarriage & tithing. if tongues are true & proper, why don't we see & hear it just as we see & hear praising the Lord, singing Christian songs, see it in the churches every Sunday, why isn't it recorded on a daily basis like radio sermons are, why don't we read it about it everywhere, why don't we experience it on a commonplace level, etc? i do not believe speaking in tongues is an active gift today. 1st Corinthians 12:8-10 explains. as for prophecy, it was a temporary gift, no longer needed after the canon of the N.T. was completed. as far as tongues, in the book of Acts, i determine it to have been limited KNOWN languages. the writer, Paul, speaks this way in the book. in Corinthians 13:1, there's a reference that speaking in tongues was associated with pagan worship in Corinth. know that the Greek word: "pauo" was the top word spoken to refer to the cessation of an activity involving speaking in tongues. as far as knowledge, knowledge then, was revealed by the Holy Spirit. i believe knowledge vanished becaue of the completion of the N.T. today, preachers teach us about the Bible.
Thank you, I am free, and so is everyone else to each to choose God's love for us all or not. 1 Cor 13:4-7, 13 have a great day
I respectfully do not see your view under Law. Yet I am not God, nor are the disciples, just witnesses and letters written in Greek, which is the only inerrant translation. Then came interpretations from Man from Greek to English and many other languages. Much missed, much misleading. Yet, in risen Son, I can do all things through risen Christ, not the dead Christ that evil flesh has encapsulated for flesh to do it right, and be God, when only a god that is trying to understand truth and can't unless Father leads them Father's Spirit and Truth John 4:23-24 I am not saying I know all, God does, not me
God, the Father of risen Son for us all, knows who and what to do and allow. I see I am dead Acts 17:28 I agree to be dead to my first birth and so there I am. By grace gvien I live, and so do many others seeing through the fake religions, And I am not accusing, just aware Matthew 10:16-20
As we each continue in belief to grow up into maturity to eat the meat of the truth from God Father by Son for us all in his being risen where new life for people begins John 4:23-24, loving all as God obviously does, otherwise, Son would not have gone to the cross to die willingly first to flesh and blood for us to beleive, see and be new in love and mercy to all too
that not true it is GOD who does so. "And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen." Mark16:20
Jesus Himself said : John 10:37-38 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”
No one is twisting the word of GOD you just don't know it.
No good try. The context and the way it is written doesn't say tongues have stopped it says it will. IF what you have said is true then Paul should have never went on in his letter in chapter 14 of 1corthians.
this is the opening :
14: 1Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
in closing :
39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
so what are you saying? When I see one post a thread like this most of the time opposing positions make their post known.
Your opening is some what dismissive of the topic yet you says "i do not believe speaking in tongues is an active gift today. "
why the deflection to only say what you think after trying to make it seem everyone but you are enaged in atopic that has been talked about how did you say it? " there must have been a billion conversations by now on the subject of speaking in tongues since the 1st conversation."
But you wanted to make sure you got that in huh?
I respect the fact that you do not believe "speaking in tongues is an active gift today. "
Yet You have not proven with the word of GOD that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today or have stopped.
Rabbit holes of pagan belief and Hindu chants are not spoken on in the letter to the Corinthians.
The Greek is very clear of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit : χάρισμα =charismata and also known as the πνευματικός = pneumatika
NO pagan terms no Hindu influence. That garage came for those who could not prove with the word of GOD that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today. Yet they then resulted to calling us devils and demonic and whatever else that would tie to all because of those who we also spoke out against for foolishness. But it was the Cessationists who went outside of the Bible to use pagan practices to disprove a gift of the Holy Spirt. NO Pentecostal who came out of the holiness movement would ever do such a thing.
But no those who hate and can't address those who they see hurting the move of GOD. It has to be everyone.
There are many on TV who will answer to The Living God for Fleecing the flock and being deceptive. I have addressed the man have continue to do so. IN PERSON! no on chat rooms only they know me in that context.
Yes? A person could think all knowledge has ceased considering the way so many behave today. But do you actually believe all knowledge has passed or vanished away? smh
Even though the Bible is the Inspired Holy Word of God it was still written by infallible men capable of sinning and far from perfection in the sense of what we will become in Heaven. So clearly the Bible is not the perfect to come because it's also put together and voted upon by men further from God than those who penned it.
So there's no doubt that the Gifts are still relevant today.
So there's no doubt that the Gifts are still relevant today.