At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[Caveman]

This is what I posted on post 911. Doens't that asnwer NO DEFLCETION?

Are you setting me up again?

Sorry "NO", maybe future, even the ones who believe just say this prayer and your saved forever which isn't bible they are on the right path. The first step.

Just as I once, said the prayer and bapitzed in the name of the father, the son and the Holy Ghost.

It wasn't until later I went in to a church who baptized in JESUS name and people in there spoke in tongues that I saw the light.

When leaving that church I told the persons who took me, "YOU CAN FEEL HIM!!"

The church I went to first never spoke of the Holy Ghost and what happens when you get it, JESUS was NOT WELCOME THERE.

When JESUS filled me with HIS SPIRIT IT CHANGED MY LIFE.

No way am I perfect, but JESUS IS ALIVE and I"m under construction and should always be.

Then I added, Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Did that answers your questions?

We often conflate the commandments given by Moses (so confusion is the result) but we are now under the Law of Messiah (LOM) which is a higher law than the Mosaic Law which says "you must love your neighbor as yourself" whereas LOM says "you shall love your neighbor as I have loved you" = higher law and greater Grace...God is interested in our growth in the Spirit, so when we break His Law, we confess our sin, and He Graciously forgives us so we can realign with His Spirit to enable us to walk in His Ways; AND once hid in Christ there is no eternal separation of Covenantal status but we can experience loss of intimacy until we confess our sin and are realigned with the Spirit.

How the Atonement (Justification) Accomplished All

• Universal Justification (Atonement):
• • At the cross, Messiah’s death, blood, and life were accepted by the Father as the once-for-all payment.
  • This act was universal — gifted to all ungodly men without merit, contrition, or human effort.
  • By this, Christ redeemed all humanity from slavery to sin and death, securing peace with God.
  • This is the foundation: God alone initiated salvation through the Atonement.
• Invitation to Sanctification (New Birth):
• • Justification opens the door, but only those who accept God’s covenant invitation enter sanctification.
  • The New Birth is given only to those being sanctified — those who receive His Spirit.
  • In sanctification, the Spirit indwells us, transforming us into Christ’s image, and empowering us to walk in the works He prepared.
  • Our overcoming is by His blood and the word of our testimony, not by our own strength.
• Glorification Guaranteed by the Atonement:
• • God has sworn: those He justified, He will glorify.
  • At judgment, He will purge all sin and present us as though we had never sinned.
  • Even those who resist sanctification may face temporal punishment (Hell as purging fire), but ultimately they too will be humbled, purified, and glorified — because the Atonement was God’s unilateral act.
• God’s Covenant Faithfulness Displayed:
• • The Mosaic covenant exposed human sinfulness and became a covenant of death, but the Father of Mercy and Justice fulfilled His unconditional covenant through the Atonement.
  • Christ, as our Kinsman Redeemer, took our place, defeated death, and hid us in Himself.
  • The Atonement was the “failsafe” from before the beginning — Christ crucified was God’s eternal plan to ensure His children (made in His image) would be brought home.
  • Even temporal punishments (Adam, Cain, Pharaoh) reveal God’s parental love — judgment is corrective, not final separation.
• Textual Witness (Hebrew vs. Greek):
• • The Septuagint stylized Hebrew covenantal language into Greek constructs, but it never predated or displaced the Hebrew OT.
  • In the same way, the abundance of Greek NT manuscripts does not prove Greek originality.
  • The NT is saturated with Hebraic chiasms, idioms, and covenantal imagery, pointing to Hebrew primacy.
  • Greek manuscripts often abstract concepts into “faith” as human belief, while Hebrew manuscripts emphasize God’s faithfulness in the Atonement.
  • Example: John 1 in Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” rather than “The Word,” keeping the covenantal focus intact.
  • For manuscript evidence and study, see HebrewGospeldotcom, which highlights the surviving Sephardic Hebrew NT manuscripts and their covenantal constructs.

The Big Picture

• Justification (Atonement) is the fountainhead: universally accomplished, inviting all into sanctification.
• Sanctification (New Birth) is given only to those who accept the covenant invitation and receive His Spirit.
• Glorification is guaranteed for all who were justified, whether through sanctification now or eventual purging later.
• God’s covenant faithfulness ensures the plan cannot fail — Christ crucified was the eternal failsafe.
• Textual witness confirms the Hebraic foundation of both OT and NT, resisting the claim that Greek abundance equals originality.

Everything — sanctification, glorification, covenant faithfulness, even the textual witness of Scripture — flows from the Atonement.

NT Understanding: Hebraic Lens vs. Greek Lens
Theme
Hebraic Lens (Covenantal, Relational)
Greek Lens (Philosophical, Abstract)
Source of Salvation
Rooted in God’s covenant faithfulness. Salvation is His unilateral act through Messiah’s Atonement.
Rooted in human response of faith/belief. Salvation often framed as dependent on individual assent.
Justification
Universal gift accomplished at the Atonement for all ungodly men, without merit or contrition. God reconciles humanity to Himself.
Conditional acceptance based on personal belief or fidelity. Justification is often seen as applied only to those who “believe.”
Sanctification (New Birth)
Invitation into covenant relationship. Those who receive His Spirit are transformed into Messiah’s image. The Spirit indwells and empowers.
Emphasis on moral striving and intellectual assent. Transformation is often tied to human discipline or fidelity.
Glorification
Guaranteed by God’s promise: those He justified, He will glorify. Even temporal punishment is corrective, leading ultimately to restoration.
Often conditional: glorification is reserved for those who persist in belief or fidelity. Eternal separation is emphasized for those who fail.
Covenant Framework
God’s unconditional covenants (Abrahamic, Davidic, New Covenant) are fulfilled in Messiah. The Mosaic covenant exposed sin but was overcome by His mercy.
Focus on law, ethics, and philosophy. The Mosaic covenant is often interpreted as a moral system rather than a relational exposure of sin.
Language & Imagery
Rich in chiasms, idioms, covenantal imagery, parental love. Example: John 1 in Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” — relational and covenantal.
Abstract concepts dominate: “The Word” in John 1 emphasizes logos (reason, principle) rather than relational Sonship.
Judgment & Punishment
Temporal, corrective, parental discipline. Even Hell is purging fire meant to humble and restore.
Eternal, retributive punishment. Judgment is final separation rather than corrective discipline.
Textual Witness
Hebrew manuscripts (Sephardic NT) preserve covenantal constructs. God always goes to the Jew first, then Gentile.
Abundance of Greek manuscripts seen as proof of originality, though they stylize Hebraic thought into Greek constructs.
Human Role
Humanity is invited to participate in sanctification, but the foundation is always God’s action.
Humanity is seen as the decisive factor: salvation hinges on personal belief/fidelity.
Key Takeaway

• Hebraic lens: Salvation is God’s covenantal act — initiated, sustained, and completed by Him. Justification is universal, sanctification is an invitation into covenant relationship, and glorification is guaranteed by His promise. Punishment is corrective, never final.
• Greek lens: Salvation is often human-centered — dependent on belief, fidelity, or intellectual assent. Justification and glorification are conditional, punishment is eternal, and the relational covenantal imagery is abstracted into philosophical categories.

This contrast shows why the Hebraic lens preserves the parental love, covenant faithfulness, and relational action of God, while the Greek lens shifts emphasis toward human belief and abstract philosophy.

 

[Caveman]

Know this....

Confident sounding conceit, while using Jesus name, does not transform error into truth.

False teachers will sound dogmatic, and will deceive the ignorant.

But, those who have knowledge of the truth?
They will not be moved

We often conflate the commandments given by Moses (so confusion is the result) but we are now under the Law of Messiah (LOM) which is a higher law than the Mosaic Law which says "you must love your neighbor as yourself" whereas LOM says "you shall love your neighbor as I have loved you" = higher law and greater Grace...God is interested in our growth in the Spirit, so when we break His Law, we confess our sin, and He Graciously forgives us so we can realign with His Spirit to enable us to walk in His Ways; AND once hid in Christ there is no eternal separation of Covenantal status but we can experience loss of intimacy until we confess our sin and are realigned with the Spirit.

How the Atonement (Justification) Accomplished All

• Universal Justification (Atonement):
• • At the cross, Messiah’s death, blood, and life were accepted by the Father as the once-for-all payment.
  • This act was universal — gifted to all ungodly men without merit, contrition, or human effort.
  • By this, Christ redeemed all humanity from slavery to sin and death, securing peace with God.
  • This is the foundation: God alone initiated salvation through the Atonement.
• Invitation to Sanctification (New Birth):
• • Justification opens the door, but only those who accept God’s covenant invitation enter sanctification.
  • The New Birth is given only to those being sanctified — those who receive His Spirit.
  • In sanctification, the Spirit indwells us, transforming us into Christ’s image, and empowering us to walk in the works He prepared.
  • Our overcoming is by His blood and the word of our testimony, not by our own strength.
• Glorification Guaranteed by the Atonement:
• • God has sworn: those He justified, He will glorify.
  • At judgment, He will purge all sin and present us as though we had never sinned.
  • Even those who resist sanctification may face temporal punishment (Hell as purging fire), but ultimately they too will be humbled, purified, and glorified — because the Atonement was God’s unilateral act.
• God’s Covenant Faithfulness Displayed:
• • The Mosaic covenant exposed human sinfulness and became a covenant of death, but the Father of Mercy and Justice fulfilled His unconditional covenant through the Atonement.
  • Christ, as our Kinsman Redeemer, took our place, defeated death, and hid us in Himself.
  • The Atonement was the “failsafe” from before the beginning — Christ crucified was God’s eternal plan to ensure His children (made in His image) would be brought home.
  • Even temporal punishments (Adam, Cain, Pharaoh) reveal God’s parental love — judgment is corrective, not final separation.
• Textual Witness (Hebrew vs. Greek):
• • The Septuagint stylized Hebrew covenantal language into Greek constructs, but it never predated or displaced the Hebrew OT.
  • In the same way, the abundance of Greek NT manuscripts does not prove Greek originality.
  • The NT is saturated with Hebraic chiasms, idioms, and covenantal imagery, pointing to Hebrew primacy.
  • Greek manuscripts often abstract concepts into “faith” as human belief, while Hebrew manuscripts emphasize God’s faithfulness in the Atonement.
  • Example: John 1 in Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” rather than “The Word,” keeping the covenantal focus intact.
  • For manuscript evidence and study, see HebrewGospeldotcom, which highlights the surviving Sephardic Hebrew NT manuscripts and their covenantal constructs.

The Big Picture

• Justification (Atonement) is the fountainhead: universally accomplished, inviting all into sanctification.
• Sanctification (New Birth) is given only to those who accept the covenant invitation and receive His Spirit.
• Glorification is guaranteed for all who were justified, whether through sanctification now or eventual purging later.
• God’s covenant faithfulness ensures the plan cannot fail — Christ crucified was the eternal failsafe.
• Textual witness confirms the Hebraic foundation of both OT and NT, resisting the claim that Greek abundance equals originality.

Everything — sanctification, glorification, covenant faithfulness, even the textual witness of Scripture — flows from the Atonement.

NT Understanding: Hebraic Lens vs. Greek Lens
Theme
Hebraic Lens (Covenantal, Relational)
Greek Lens (Philosophical, Abstract)
Source of Salvation
Rooted in God’s covenant faithfulness. Salvation is His unilateral act through Messiah’s Atonement.
Rooted in human response of faith/belief. Salvation often framed as dependent on individual assent.
Justification
Universal gift accomplished at the Atonement for all ungodly men, without merit or contrition. God reconciles humanity to Himself.
Conditional acceptance based on personal belief or fidelity. Justification is often seen as applied only to those who “believe.”
Sanctification (New Birth)
Invitation into covenant relationship. Those who receive His Spirit are transformed into Messiah’s image. The Spirit indwells and empowers.
Emphasis on moral striving and intellectual assent. Transformation is often tied to human discipline or fidelity.
Glorification
Guaranteed by God’s promise: those He justified, He will glorify. Even temporal punishment is corrective, leading ultimately to restoration.
Often conditional: glorification is reserved for those who persist in belief or fidelity. Eternal separation is emphasized for those who fail.
Covenant Framework
God’s unconditional covenants (Abrahamic, Davidic, New Covenant) are fulfilled in Messiah. The Mosaic covenant exposed sin but was overcome by His mercy.
Focus on law, ethics, and philosophy. The Mosaic covenant is often interpreted as a moral system rather than a relational exposure of sin.
Language & Imagery
Rich in chiasms, idioms, covenantal imagery, parental love. Example: John 1 in Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” — relational and covenantal.
Abstract concepts dominate: “The Word” in John 1 emphasizes logos (reason, principle) rather than relational Sonship.
Judgment & Punishment
Temporal, corrective, parental discipline. Even Hell is purging fire meant to humble and restore.
Eternal, retributive punishment. Judgment is final separation rather than corrective discipline.
Textual Witness
Hebrew manuscripts (Sephardic NT) preserve covenantal constructs. God always goes to the Jew first, then Gentile.
Abundance of Greek manuscripts seen as proof of originality, though they stylize Hebraic thought into Greek constructs.
Human Role
Humanity is invited to participate in sanctification, but the foundation is always God’s action.
Humanity is seen as the decisive factor: salvation hinges on personal belief/fidelity.
Key Takeaway

• Hebraic lens: Salvation is God’s covenantal act — initiated, sustained, and completed by Him. Justification is universal, sanctification is an invitation into covenant relationship, and glorification is guaranteed by His promise. Punishment is corrective, never final.
• Greek lens: Salvation is often human-centered — dependent on belief, fidelity, or intellectual assent. Justification and glorification are conditional, punishment is eternal, and the relational covenantal imagery is abstracted into philosophical categories.

This contrast shows why the Hebraic lens preserves the parental love, covenant faithfulness, and relational action of God, while the Greek lens shifts emphasis toward human belief and abstract philosophy.

 

[Ouch]

We often conflate the commandments given by Moses (so confusion is the result) but we are now under the Law of Messiah (LOM) which is a higher law than the Mosaic Law which says "you must love your neighbor as yourself" whereas LOM says "you shall love your neighbor as I have loved you" = higher law and greater Grace...God is interested in our growth in the Spirit, so when we break His Law, we confess our sin, and He Graciously forgives us so we can realign with His Spirit to enable us to walk in His Ways; AND once hid in Christ there is no eternal separation of Covenantal status but we can experience loss of intimacy until we confess our sin and are realigned with the Spirit.

How the Atonement (Justification) Accomplished All

• Universal Justification (Atonement):
• • At the cross, Messiah’s death, blood, and life were accepted by the Father as the once-for-all payment.
  • This act was universal — gifted to all ungodly men without merit, contrition, or human effort.
  • By this, Christ redeemed all humanity from slavery to sin and death, securing peace with God.
  • This is the foundation: God alone initiated salvation through the Atonement.
• Invitation to Sanctification (New Birth):
• • Justification opens the door, but only those who accept God’s covenant invitation enter sanctification.
  • The New Birth is given only to those being sanctified — those who receive His Spirit.
  • In sanctification, the Spirit indwells us, transforming us into Christ’s image, and empowering us to walk in the works He prepared.
  • Our overcoming is by His blood and the word of our testimony, not by our own strength.
• Glorification Guaranteed by the Atonement:
• • God has sworn: those He justified, He will glorify.
  • At judgment, He will purge all sin and present us as though we had never sinned.
  • Even those who resist sanctification may face temporal punishment (Hell as purging fire), but ultimately they too will be humbled, purified, and glorified — because the Atonement was God’s unilateral act.
• God’s Covenant Faithfulness Displayed:
• • The Mosaic covenant exposed human sinfulness and became a covenant of death, but the Father of Mercy and Justice fulfilled His unconditional covenant through the Atonement.
  • Christ, as our Kinsman Redeemer, took our place, defeated death, and hid us in Himself.
  • The Atonement was the “failsafe” from before the beginning — Christ crucified was God’s eternal plan to ensure His children (made in His image) would be brought home.
  • Even temporal punishments (Adam, Cain, Pharaoh) reveal God’s parental love — judgment is corrective, not final separation.
• Textual Witness (Hebrew vs. Greek):
• • The Septuagint stylized Hebrew covenantal language into Greek constructs, but it never predated or displaced the Hebrew OT.
  • In the same way, the abundance of Greek NT manuscripts does not prove Greek originality.
  • The NT is saturated with Hebraic chiasms, idioms, and covenantal imagery, pointing to Hebrew primacy.
  • Greek manuscripts often abstract concepts into “faith” as human belief, while Hebrew manuscripts emphasize God’s faithfulness in the Atonement.
  • Example: John 1 in Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” rather than “The Word,” keeping the covenantal focus intact.
  • For manuscript evidence and study, see HebrewGospeldotcom, which highlights the surviving Sephardic Hebrew NT manuscripts and their covenantal constructs.

The Big Picture

• Justification (Atonement) is the fountainhead: universally accomplished, inviting all into sanctification.
• Sanctification (New Birth) is given only to those who accept the covenant invitation and receive His Spirit.
• Glorification is guaranteed for all who were justified, whether through sanctification now or eventual purging later.
• God’s covenant faithfulness ensures the plan cannot fail — Christ crucified was the eternal failsafe.
• Textual witness confirms the Hebraic foundation of both OT and NT, resisting the claim that Greek abundance equals originality.

Everything — sanctification, glorification, covenant faithfulness, even the textual witness of Scripture — flows from the Atonement.

NT Understanding: Hebraic Lens vs. Greek Lens
Theme
Hebraic Lens (Covenantal, Relational)
Greek Lens (Philosophical, Abstract)
Source of Salvation
Rooted in God’s covenant faithfulness. Salvation is His unilateral act through Messiah’s Atonement.
Rooted in human response of faith/belief. Salvation often framed as dependent on individual assent.
Justification
Universal gift accomplished at the Atonement for all ungodly men, without merit or contrition. God reconciles humanity to Himself.
Conditional acceptance based on personal belief or fidelity. Justification is often seen as applied only to those who “believe.”
Sanctification (New Birth)
Invitation into covenant relationship. Those who receive His Spirit are transformed into Messiah’s image. The Spirit indwells and empowers.
Emphasis on moral striving and intellectual assent. Transformation is often tied to human discipline or fidelity.
Glorification
Guaranteed by God’s promise: those He justified, He will glorify. Even temporal punishment is corrective, leading ultimately to restoration.
Often conditional: glorification is reserved for those who persist in belief or fidelity. Eternal separation is emphasized for those who fail.
Covenant Framework
God’s unconditional covenants (Abrahamic, Davidic, New Covenant) are fulfilled in Messiah. The Mosaic covenant exposed sin but was overcome by His mercy.
Focus on law, ethics, and philosophy. The Mosaic covenant is often interpreted as a moral system rather than a relational exposure of sin.
Language & Imagery
Rich in chiasms, idioms, covenantal imagery, parental love. Example: John 1 in Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” — relational and covenantal.
Abstract concepts dominate: “The Word” in John 1 emphasizes logos (reason, principle) rather than relational Sonship.
Judgment & Punishment
Temporal, corrective, parental discipline. Even Hell is purging fire meant to humble and restore.
Eternal, retributive punishment. Judgment is final separation rather than corrective discipline.
Textual Witness
Hebrew manuscripts (Sephardic NT) preserve covenantal constructs. God always goes to the Jew first, then Gentile.
Abundance of Greek manuscripts seen as proof of originality, though they stylize Hebraic thought into Greek constructs.
Human Role
Humanity is invited to participate in sanctification, but the foundation is always God’s action.
Humanity is seen as the decisive factor: salvation hinges on personal belief/fidelity.
Key Takeaway

• Hebraic lens: Salvation is God’s covenantal act — initiated, sustained, and completed by Him. Justification is universal, sanctification is an invitation into covenant relationship, and glorification is guaranteed by His promise. Punishment is corrective, never final.
• Greek lens: Salvation is often human-centered — dependent on belief, fidelity, or intellectual assent. Justification and glorification are conditional, punishment is eternal, and the relational covenantal imagery is abstracted into philosophical categories.

This contrast shows why the Hebraic lens preserves the parental love, covenant faithfulness, and relational action of God, while the Greek lens shifts emphasis toward human belief and abstract philosophy.

So why did you share that with me?

What's your point?

Just sharing whatever to everyone?

 

[LightBearer316]

So why did you share that with me?

What's your point?

Just sharing whatever to everyone?

Just sharing some Ai filler.

 

[Caveman]

So why did you share that with me?

What's your point?

Just sharing whatever to everyone?

I shared with you what you get with Jesus, what He gifted us by His atonement; the emphasis is on Him and His Covenantal faithfulness...not our faithfulness or belief ect...this is a Greek western linguistic construct while the Hebraic view is centered on Messiah and His Faithfulness

 

[GWH]

We often conflate the commandments given by Moses (so confusion is the result) but we are now under the Law of Messiah (LOM) which is a higher law than the Mosaic Law which says "you must love your neighbor as yourself" whereas LOM says "you shall love your neighbor as I have loved you" = higher law and greater Grace...God is interested in our growth in the Spirit, so when we break His Law, we confess our sin, and He Graciously forgives us so we can realign with His Spirit to enable us to walk in His Ways; AND once hid in Christ there is no eternal separation of Covenantal status but we can experience loss of intimacy until we confess our sin and are realigned with the Spirit.

How the Atonement (Justification) Accomplished All

• Universal Justification (Atonement):
• • At the cross, Messiah’s death, blood, and life were accepted by the Father as the once-for-all payment.
  • This act was universal — gifted to all ungodly men without merit, contrition, or human effort.
  • By this, Christ redeemed all humanity from slavery to sin and death, securing peace with God.
  • This is the foundation: God alone initiated salvation through the Atonement.
• Invitation to Sanctification (New Birth):
• • Justification opens the door, but only those who accept God’s covenant invitation enter sanctification.
  • The New Birth is given only to those being sanctified — those who receive His Spirit.
  • In sanctification, the Spirit indwells us, transforming us into Christ’s image, and empowering us to walk in the works He prepared.
  • Our overcoming is by His blood and the word of our testimony, not by our own strength.
• Glorification Guaranteed by the Atonement:
• • God has sworn: those He justified, He will glorify.
  • At judgment, He will purge all sin and present us as though we had never sinned.
  • Even those who resist sanctification may face temporal punishment (Hell as purging fire), but ultimately they too will be humbled, purified, and glorified — because the Atonement was God’s unilateral act.
• God’s Covenant Faithfulness Displayed:
• • The Mosaic covenant exposed human sinfulness and became a covenant of death, but the Father of Mercy and Justice fulfilled His unconditional covenant through the Atonement.
  • Christ, as our Kinsman Redeemer, took our place, defeated death, and hid us in Himself.
  • The Atonement was the “failsafe” from before the beginning — Christ crucified was God’s eternal plan to ensure His children (made in His image) would be brought home.
  • Even temporal punishments (Adam, Cain, Pharaoh) reveal God’s parental love — judgment is corrective, not final separation.
• Textual Witness (Hebrew vs. Greek):
• • The Septuagint stylized Hebrew covenantal language into Greek constructs, but it never predated or displaced the Hebrew OT.
  • In the same way, the abundance of Greek NT manuscripts does not prove Greek originality.
  • The NT is saturated with Hebraic chiasms, idioms, and covenantal imagery, pointing to Hebrew primacy.
  • Greek manuscripts often abstract concepts into “faith” as human belief, while Hebrew manuscripts emphasize God’s faithfulness in the Atonement.
  • Example: John 1 in Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” rather than “The Word,” keeping the covenantal focus intact.
  • For manuscript evidence and study, see HebrewGospeldotcom, which highlights the surviving Sephardic Hebrew NT manuscripts and their covenantal constructs.

The Big Picture

• Justification (Atonement) is the fountainhead: universally accomplished, inviting all into sanctification.
• Sanctification (New Birth) is given only to those who accept the covenant invitation and receive His Spirit.
• Glorification is guaranteed for all who were justified, whether through sanctification now or eventual purging later.
• God’s covenant faithfulness ensures the plan cannot fail — Christ crucified was the eternal failsafe.
• Textual witness confirms the Hebraic foundation of both OT and NT, resisting the claim that Greek abundance equals originality.

Everything — sanctification, glorification, covenant faithfulness, even the textual witness of Scripture — flows from the Atonement.

NT Understanding: Hebraic Lens vs. Greek Lens
Theme
Hebraic Lens (Covenantal, Relational)
Greek Lens (Philosophical, Abstract)
Source of Salvation
Rooted in God’s covenant faithfulness. Salvation is His unilateral act through Messiah’s Atonement.
Rooted in human response of faith/belief. Salvation often framed as dependent on individual assent.
Justification
Universal gift accomplished at the Atonement for all ungodly men, without merit or contrition. God reconciles humanity to Himself.
Conditional acceptance based on personal belief or fidelity. Justification is often seen as applied only to those who “believe.”
Sanctification (New Birth)
Invitation into covenant relationship. Those who receive His Spirit are transformed into Messiah’s image. The Spirit indwells and empowers.
Emphasis on moral striving and intellectual assent. Transformation is often tied to human discipline or fidelity.
Glorification
Guaranteed by God’s promise: those He justified, He will glorify. Even temporal punishment is corrective, leading ultimately to restoration.
Often conditional: glorification is reserved for those who persist in belief or fidelity. Eternal separation is emphasized for those who fail.
Covenant Framework
God’s unconditional covenants (Abrahamic, Davidic, New Covenant) are fulfilled in Messiah. The Mosaic covenant exposed sin but was overcome by His mercy.
Focus on law, ethics, and philosophy. The Mosaic covenant is often interpreted as a moral system rather than a relational exposure of sin.
Language & Imagery
Rich in chiasms, idioms, covenantal imagery, parental love. Example: John 1 in Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” — relational and covenantal.
Abstract concepts dominate: “The Word” in John 1 emphasizes logos (reason, principle) rather than relational Sonship.
Judgment & Punishment
Temporal, corrective, parental discipline. Even Hell is purging fire meant to humble and restore.
Eternal, retributive punishment. Judgment is final separation rather than corrective discipline.
Textual Witness
Hebrew manuscripts (Sephardic NT) preserve covenantal constructs. God always goes to the Jew first, then Gentile.
Abundance of Greek manuscripts seen as proof of originality, though they stylize Hebraic thought into Greek constructs.
Human Role
Humanity is invited to participate in sanctification, but the foundation is always God’s action.
Humanity is seen as the decisive factor: salvation hinges on personal belief/fidelity.
Key Takeaway

• Hebraic lens: Salvation is God’s covenantal act — initiated, sustained, and completed by Him. Justification is universal, sanctification is an invitation into covenant relationship, and glorification is guaranteed by His promise. Punishment is corrective, never final.
• Greek lens: Salvation is often human-centered — dependent on belief, fidelity, or intellectual assent. Justification and glorification are conditional, punishment is eternal, and the relational covenantal imagery is abstracted into philosophical categories.

This contrast shows why the Hebraic lens preserves the parental love, covenant faithfulness, and relational action of God, while the Greek lens shifts emphasis toward human belief and abstract philosophy.

Yes, I agree that the main purpose of Holy Scripture is to reveal that God initiates/invites all sinners to believe and be saved,
and sinners may repent of ignoring God's grace/Word and accept Him/His Messiah as Lord via faith--
or not and be justly condemned.

 

[Caveman]

Just sharing some Ai filler.

no...I wrote it all and had hat clean it up so it would be more digestible...but what of the content and point of my post? 2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV) is exactly what I posted about His Covenantal Faithfulness..

 

[Genez]

And you said, I put things back on you and deflect.

Have a good day.

Sorry, sir...

I am glad to see you changed your tone...

For you had been acting like what I had described.

Good to see!

 

[Caveman]

Yes, I agree that the main purpose of Holy Scripture is to reveal that God initiates/invites all sinners to believe and be saved,
and sinners may repent of ignoring God's grace/Word and accept Him/His Messiah as Lord via faith--
or not and be justly condemned.

what do you do with those He Justified He Also Glorified? This is His eternal plan of Salvation to redeem ALL His children (image of God) that the enemy corrupted...eternal destruction is a Greek construct...the Hebraic view is that eternity is beyond 'our view" (not His) and that God punishes and exiles with the ultimate view of reconciliation..."those He Justified He Also Glorified" God guarantees it!

 

[Caveman]

Just sharing some Ai filler.

I shared what you get with Jesus, what He gifted us by His atonement; the emphasis is on Him and His Covenantal faithfulness...not our faithfulness or belief ect...this is a Greek western linguistic construct while the Hebraic view is centered on Messiah and His Faithfulness.

I wrote everything and had AI clean it up to make it more presentable, but the points I made are well made

 

[Genez]

We often conflate the commandments given by Moses (so confusion is the result) but we are now under the Law of Messiah (LOM) which is a higher law than the Mosaic Law which says "you must love your neighbor as yourself" whereas LOM says "you shall love your neighbor as I have loved you" = higher law and greater Grace...God is interested in our growth in the Spirit, so when we break His Law, we confess our sin, and He Graciously forgives us so we can realign with His Spirit to enable us to walk in His Ways; AND once hid in Christ there is no eternal separation of Covenantal status but we can experience loss of intimacy until we confess our sin and are realigned with the Spirit.

How the Atonement (Justification) Accomplished All

• Universal Justification (Atonement):
• • At the cross, Messiah’s death, blood, and life were accepted by the Father as the once-for-all payment.
  • This act was universal — gifted to all ungodly men without merit, contrition, or human effort.
  • By this, Christ redeemed all humanity from slavery to sin and death, securing peace with God.
  • This is the foundation: God alone initiated salvation through the Atonement.
• Invitation to Sanctification (New Birth):
• • Justification opens the door, but only those who accept God’s covenant invitation enter sanctification.
  • The New Birth is given only to those being sanctified — those who receive His Spirit.
  • In sanctification, the Spirit indwells us, transforming us into Christ’s image, and empowering us to walk in the works He prepared.
  • Our overcoming is by His blood and the word of our testimony, not by our own strength.
• Glorification Guaranteed by the Atonement:
• • God has sworn: those He justified, He will glorify.
  • At judgment, He will purge all sin and present us as though we had never sinned.
  • Even those who resist sanctification may face temporal punishment (Hell as purging fire), but ultimately they too will be humbled, purified, and glorified — because the Atonement was God’s unilateral act.
• God’s Covenant Faithfulness Displayed:
• • The Mosaic covenant exposed human sinfulness and became a covenant of death, but the Father of Mercy and Justice fulfilled His unconditional covenant through the Atonement.
  • Christ, as our Kinsman Redeemer, took our place, defeated death, and hid us in Himself.
  • The Atonement was the “failsafe” from before the beginning — Christ crucified was God’s eternal plan to ensure His children (made in His image) would be brought home.
  • Even temporal punishments (Adam, Cain, Pharaoh) reveal God’s parental love — judgment is corrective, not final separation.
• Textual Witness (Hebrew vs. Greek):
• • The Septuagint stylized Hebrew covenantal language into Greek constructs, but it never predated or displaced the Hebrew OT.
  • In the same way, the abundance of Greek NT manuscripts does not prove Greek originality.
  • The NT is saturated with Hebraic chiasms, idioms, and covenantal imagery, pointing to Hebrew primacy.
  • Greek manuscripts often abstract concepts into “faith” as human belief, while Hebrew manuscripts emphasize God’s faithfulness in the Atonement.
  • Example: John 1 in Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” rather than “The Word,” keeping the covenantal focus intact.
  • For manuscript evidence and study, see HebrewGospeldotcom, which highlights the surviving Sephardic Hebrew NT manuscripts and their covenantal constructs.

The Big Picture

• Justification (Atonement) is the fountainhead: universally accomplished, inviting all into sanctification.
• Sanctification (New Birth) is given only to those who accept the covenant invitation and receive His Spirit.
• Glorification is guaranteed for all who were justified, whether through sanctification now or eventual purging later.
• God’s covenant faithfulness ensures the plan cannot fail — Christ crucified was the eternal failsafe.
• Textual witness confirms the Hebraic foundation of both OT and NT, resisting the claim that Greek abundance equals originality.

Everything — sanctification, glorification, covenant faithfulness, even the textual witness of Scripture — flows from the Atonement.

NT Understanding: Hebraic Lens vs. Greek Lens
Theme
Hebraic Lens (Covenantal, Relational)
Greek Lens (Philosophical, Abstract)
Source of Salvation
Rooted in God’s covenant faithfulness. Salvation is His unilateral act through Messiah’s Atonement.
Rooted in human response of faith/belief. Salvation often framed as dependent on individual assent.
Justification
Universal gift accomplished at the Atonement for all ungodly men, without merit or contrition. God reconciles humanity to Himself.
Conditional acceptance based on personal belief or fidelity. Justification is often seen as applied only to those who “believe.”
Sanctification (New Birth)
Invitation into covenant relationship. Those who receive His Spirit are transformed into Messiah’s image. The Spirit indwells and empowers.
Emphasis on moral striving and intellectual assent. Transformation is often tied to human discipline or fidelity.
Glorification
Guaranteed by God’s promise: those He justified, He will glorify. Even temporal punishment is corrective, leading ultimately to restoration.
Often conditional: glorification is reserved for those who persist in belief or fidelity. Eternal separation is emphasized for those who fail.
Covenant Framework
God’s unconditional covenants (Abrahamic, Davidic, New Covenant) are fulfilled in Messiah. The Mosaic covenant exposed sin but was overcome by His mercy.
Focus on law, ethics, and philosophy. The Mosaic covenant is often interpreted as a moral system rather than a relational exposure of sin.
Language & Imagery
Rich in chiasms, idioms, covenantal imagery, parental love. Example: John 1 in Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” — relational and covenantal.
Abstract concepts dominate: “The Word” in John 1 emphasizes logos (reason, principle) rather than relational Sonship.
Judgment & Punishment
Temporal, corrective, parental discipline. Even Hell is purging fire meant to humble and restore.
Eternal, retributive punishment. Judgment is final separation rather than corrective discipline.
Textual Witness
Hebrew manuscripts (Sephardic NT) preserve covenantal constructs. God always goes to the Jew first, then Gentile.
Abundance of Greek manuscripts seen as proof of originality, though they stylize Hebraic thought into Greek constructs.
Human Role
Humanity is invited to participate in sanctification, but the foundation is always God’s action.
Humanity is seen as the decisive factor: salvation hinges on personal belief/fidelity.
Key Takeaway

• Hebraic lens: Salvation is God’s covenantal act — initiated, sustained, and completed by Him. Justification is universal, sanctification is an invitation into covenant relationship, and glorification is guaranteed by His promise. Punishment is corrective, never final.
• Greek lens: Salvation is often human-centered — dependent on belief, fidelity, or intellectual assent. Justification and glorification are conditional, punishment is eternal, and the relational covenantal imagery is abstracted into philosophical categories.

This contrast shows why the Hebraic lens preserves the parental love, covenant faithfulness, and relational action of God, while the Greek lens shifts emphasis toward human belief and abstract philosophy.

Kind of reminds me of that kids old song....

"Old MacDonald.... had a farm!"​

​

with a A.I.... ​

A.I.... -- Oh !​

​

​

And, on his farm, he had A.I. software.​

............. With no place else to go!​

​

With a search-search here!​

And, a search-search there!​

​

Everywhere a search-search.​

Search-search... search-search!​

​

With nothing else to show. ​

​

​

grace and peace .............​

 

[Caveman]

Kind of reminds me of that kids old song....

"Old MacDonald.... had a farm!"​

​

with a A.I.... ​

A.I.... -- Oh !​

​

​

And, on his farm, he had A.I. software.​

............. With no place else to go!​

​

With a search-search here!​

And, a search-search there!​

​

With nothing else to show. ​

​

​

grace and peace .............​

Nice retort to the points i made in the post...I thought they were well made

 

[Caveman]

Kind of reminds me of that kids old song....

"Old MacDonald.... had a farm!"​

​

with a A.I.... ​

A.I.... -- Oh !​

​

​

And, on his farm, he had A.I. software.​

............. With no place else to go!​

​

With a search-search here!​

And, a search-search there!​

​

Everywhere a search-search.​

Search-search... search-search!​

​

With nothing else to show. ​

​

​

grace and peace .............​

Here's my original writing that AI cleaned up...these were my thoughts not AI..." which do you find more digestible??

Here's a different perspective...Salvation is a three-phase process that is initiated by God alone via the Atonement. What was accomplished at the Atonement was universal Justification for all ungodly men (without merit or contrition of any kind by the sinner man). This was an unmerited gift from God. Messiah's Death, Blood and Life was accepted by the Father and in so doing Christ redeemed all men from the slavery of sin and death (making our Peace with God) and made it possible by trusting in His Faithfulness for us to enter into a living relationship with the Father that begins the New Birth at our Sanctification. This is where we are given His Spirit and are cooperatively transformed into the image of Christ; these are the works He has given us to walk in. He works in us by His Spirit that we have now indwelling in us; this is how we overcome..by His Blood and the word of our testimony. God at the Judgement will then purge us completely of all sin and present us as though we have never sinned; and we will be like the sinless Son of God. Those of mankind who are Justified by His Atonement but choose to resist God's offer of Covenant relationship by willingly being transformed into His image (Sanctification) will be punished in Hell for a time but after (God knows) they have been humbled and purged by the cleansing of the fiery punishment will eventually call on God as we all have who are Sanctified now into covenant relationship; so eventually they too will be Glorified and made to be like the sinless Son of God. How do we know this...? God has sworn that those He Justified "HE" will Glorify. It's not dependent on man (we would screw it up), but He has promised those He Justified He Will Glorify; you can't get any plainer than that! Evidenced by the fact that we all were made in His image; and God had a failsafe from before the Beginning...Christ crucified! When Adam sinned and his first-born son killed his youngest son...in both cases though both Adam and Cain had direct warning from God…they sinned anyway, but what did God do...He cursed the ground not Adam and He put a sign on Cain forehead to protect him. This is parental Love of a Father...His unconditional Covenants are His to accomplish...the one conditional Mosaic Covenant exposed just how sinful we are, and it became a Covenant of death to us! SO, the Father of Mercy and Justice paid the price for our freedom and wholeness because we could never meet His righteousness on our own, so as our Kinsman Redeemer He took our place and became victorious over death and He hid us in Christ, so we have perfect Peace now with God. The thing we need to remember is that though God does allow temporal punishment, that is only meant to humble us for our good; and even physical death like what happened to Pharaoh because of hard heartedness was only temporal. He intends to bring all His children (image of God) home that the enemy has corrupted. See Hebrewgospeldotcom to learn that the NT was originally written to the church in Hebrew and then translated into Greek later. There are only 4 surviving NT Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts. Scholars would have you believe that because there are tons and tons of Greek NT manuscripts (compared to the Sephardic Hebrew) and that they are the oldest…that this = "original" NT writtings.... that is flimsy at best and purposely biased. God always goes to the Jew first and then the Gentile..this is the model Jesus also followed. The first century Believers were mostly Jewish and all the Disciples who wrote the NT were Jewish eyewitnesses of Christ. The reason the Hebrew NT manuscripts are so rare is because very quickly many more Gentiles became believers and fewer and fewer Jews were continuing to convert to Christianity, so the need for Greek translations was practical. The OT Greek translation took OT Hebrew and stylized it into a Greek linguistic construct, but no one ever says the Greek Septuagint predates the OT Hebrew! The Greek NT is obviously a translation from the Hebrew...the evidence of its Hebraic originality is the chiasms, idioms and Covenantal imagery. The Hebrew NT is written in a Conventual relationship construct whereas the Greek is abstract in its concepts and emphasizes our faith not His Faithfulness; as an example, Greek says in John 1 "The Word","The Word","The Word" and the Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts say "The Son", "The Son", "The Son".

 

[Genez]

Nice retort to the points i made in the post...I thought they were well made

A.I in a very long post is not something I relish taking the needed time for.

Sorry. I want to hear what you think, as you think it.

I will also use A.I.

But, only briefly.
Just to back up what I expressed personally.

 

[Genez]

Nice retort to the points i made in the post...I thought they were well made

If you left it at this?

We often conflate the commandments given by Moses (so confusion is the result) but we are now under the Law of Messiah (LOM) which is a higher law than the Mosaic Law which says "you must love your neighbor as yourself" whereas LOM says "you shall love your neighbor as I have loved you" = higher law and greater Grace...God is interested in our growth in the Spirit, so when we break His Law, we confess our sin, and He Graciously forgives us so we can realign with His Spirit to enable us to walk in His Ways; AND once hid in Christ there is no eternal separation of Covenantal status but we can experience loss of intimacy until we confess our sin and are realigned with the Spirit.

I may have responded.

 

[Caveman]

A.I in a very long post is not something I relish taking the needed time for.

Sorry. I want to hear what you think, as you think it.

I will also use A.I.

But, only briefly.
Just to back up what I expressed personally.

thanks, what I had to say is not being said; and I wanted my whole point to be made without getting bogged down piece mealing it so I wouldn't get lost in the weeds trying to explain my thought

 

[Genez]

thanks, what I had to say is not being said; and I wanted my whole point to be made without getting bogged down piece mealing it so I wouldn't get lost in the weeds trying to explain my thought

The format is usually best when its kept brief as possible.
It was just way too long the way you had it.

Nothing wrong with long post if it is a dedicated forum to a subject.

 

[LightBearer316]

I shared what you get with Jesus, what He gifted us by His atonement; the emphasis is on Him and His Covenantal faithfulness...not our faithfulness or belief ect...this is a Greek western linguistic construct while the Hebraic view is centered on Messiah and His Faithfulness.

I wrote everything and had AI clean it up to make it more presentable, but the points I made are well made

AI has been misused on this message board long before this discussion. Studier, Blue155, and ChristRoseFromTheDead are the worst offenders by far. So it’s hard not to say something about it.

Grace and Peace

 

[Caveman]

The format is usually best when its kept brief as possible.
It was just way too long the way you had it.

Nothing wrong with long post if it is a dedicated forum to a subject.

What I posted needed to be discussed and long or not it is out there now...this is my first time on CC and people are very screwed up in their understanding of the Scriptures...so many tortured in "my faith or lack of it" and baptism or not baptism...follow the Law or is it done away ect. Their "Salvation hinging on their faithfulness...and not God's Covenantal Faithfulness.

I want people to know what God has accomplished and gifted to all of us...that we all are Justified in Him, but we all are not Sanctified which is when we receive the Spirit New Birth (not until we respond to the Grace of God); otherwise, it's His chastisement until humbled enough to call on Him.

This is the true Gospel...not the me centric works-based doctrine of men. The Greek western view skews the Gospel morphing and distorting the Hebraic Covenantal Gospel intent...His Faithfulness as our Kinsman Redeemer!

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

AI has been misused on this message board long before this discussion. Studier, Blue155, and ChristRoseFromTheDead are the worst offenders by far. So it’s hard not to say something about it.

Grace and Peace

You need to stop your intentional lying. I've used AI maybe twice in my entire time here.