Loss of salvation???

[vassal]

As stated before, I disagree only with you, not the scriptures. Your failure to rightly divide the word of truth is what is keeping you from seeing your error.

MM

Your accusation is empty. You say you disagree only with me and not with Scripture, yet your words show the opposite. When someone pushes aside the clear commandments of God and replaces them with their own ideas, they are not standing with the truth. Jesus warned about people who claim to honor God while setting aside His commandments. He said, “You reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition” (Mark 7:9). This is exactly what happens when the plain words of Jesus are ignored.

You also say that I am not “rightly dividing the word,” but Jesus never told us to "divide His words". He told us to hear Him, follow Him, and keep His sayings. Jesus said, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). The problem is not division; the problem is refusing what the Lord already made clear.

Jesus warned about the danger of hearing His words without obeying them. He said those who do this are like a man building his house on sand, and that house will fall with a great crash (Matthew 7:24–27). If you reject Jesus’ teaching about the commandments, obedience, and righteousness from the heart, then you are building on sand.

The Scriptures warn not to add or take away from God’s commandments. God said, “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it” (Deuteronomy 4:2). When you try to lessen God’s commandments or separate them from the covenant God Himself defined, you are doing exactly what He forbids.

Anyone who truly honors God will submit to what Jesus says, not argue against it. Jesus is the final authority. If you refuse His clear teachings, then your disagreement is not with me at all it is with the Lord Himself.

 

[Musicmaster]

Your accusation is empty. You say you disagree only with me and not with Scripture, yet your words show the opposite. When someone pushes aside the clear commandments of God and replaces them with their own ideas, they are not standing with the truth. Jesus warned about people who claim to honor God while setting aside His commandments. He said, “You reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition” (Mark 7:9). This is exactly what happens when the plain words of Jesus are ignored.

You also say that I am not “rightly dividing the word,” but Jesus never told us to "divide His words". He told us to hear Him, follow Him, and keep His sayings. Jesus said, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). The problem is not division; the problem is refusing what the Lord already made clear.

Jesus warned about the danger of hearing His words without obeying them. He said those who do this are like a man building his house on sand, and that house will fall with a great crash (Matthew 7:24–27). If you reject Jesus’ teaching about the commandments, obedience, and righteousness from the heart, then you are building on sand.

The Scriptures warn not to add or take away from God’s commandments. God said, “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it” (Deuteronomy 4:2). When you try to lessen God’s commandments or separate them from the covenant God Himself defined, you are doing exactly what He forbids.

Anyone who truly honors God will submit to what Jesus says, not argue against it. Jesus is the final authority. If you refuse His clear teachings, then your disagreement is not with me at all it is with the Lord Himself.

If I put forth empty accusation, then we're both equally guilty. I did not push aside the commandments. I'm dead to them as are all who are in the body of Christ:

Galtians 3:1-2, 7-8, 11-14
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ...
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. ...
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The ten commandments are still an outline of the Mosaic Law. If you're going to try and live any of them perfectly, then you're bound my all of them. If you believe you're saved and retain your salvation through ordinances, then you've got a problem on your hands:

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colassias 2:14, 20
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ...
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Jesus spoke highly of the first two of the ten is a fulfilment of the others, and yet nobody can live any of them to the satisfaction of the perfection of the Lord when one is under grace. Not even the prophets lived the Law perfectly, righteously, to the extent that they still did not need what Jesus accomplished on the cross.

Do you not have Holy Spirit within you to live according to the Lord's desire for you under grace? Do you think that you are somehow in possession of any virtue in and or yourself that living ordinances will somehow supplement the grace of God? If so, then you're living in the pride of flesh.

It's entirely up to you. I let the Spirit live the righteous Law through me. I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and His righteousness He has imputed upon me. What about you? Do you honestly think that trying to live the ten will somehow magnify you in His sight? Good luck with that because you're going to need it.

MM

 

[vassal]

If I put forth empty accusation, then we're both equally guilty. I did not push aside the commandments. I'm dead to them as are all who are in the body of Christ:

Galtians 3:1-2, 7-8, 11-14
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ...
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. ...
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The ten commandments are still an outline of the Mosaic Law. If you're going to try and live any of them perfectly, then you're bound my all of them. If you believe you're saved and retain your salvation through ordinances, then you've got a problem on your hands:

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colassias 2:14, 20
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ...
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Jesus spoke highly of the first two of the ten is a fulfilment of the others, and yet nobody can live any of them to the satisfaction of the perfection of the Lord when one is under grace. Not even the prophets lived the Law perfectly, righteously, to the extent that they still did not need what Jesus accomplished on the cross.

Do you not have Holy Spirit within you to live according to the Lord's desire for you under grace? Do you think that you are somehow in possession of any virtue in and or yourself that living ordinances will somehow supplement the grace of God? If so, then you're living in the pride of flesh.

It's entirely up to you. I let the Spirit live the righteous Law through me. I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and His righteousness He has imputed upon me. What about you? Do you honestly think that trying to live the ten will somehow magnify you in His sight? Good luck with that because you're going to need it.

MM

MM, you quote Paul repeatedly, but you fail to quote Jesus even once. That is the heart of the problem. Jesus is God’s Word made flesh; He is the one who shows us how to live, and He alone fulfills the Law. Ignoring His teaching while leaning on Paul is not wisdom—it is confusion.
Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15) and “Whoever has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me” (John 14:21). He did not say the Law is dead or irrelevant. He lived it perffectly and teaches us to follow it in spirit and truth. Thomas recognized Him as God when he said, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). Jesus is not separate from the Father; He is God, and salvation comes through Him, not through ignoring His words.
The Ten Commandments are not a mere “handwriting of ordinances” to be tossed aside. They reflect God’s character, and Jesus showed us how to obey them with love. Claiming that grace frees you to ignore His commandments is pride disguised as faith. The Holy Spirit does not empower us to discard Jesus’ teaching; He empowers us to live it.
MM, stop trying to elevate yourself with Paul while leaving Jesus out of the picture. Obedience to Jesus is not optional. Grace does not replace the Law, it enables us to live it in love. If you truly follow Christ, you must understand and follow His words, not only Paul’s letters.

 

[Caveman]

Here's a different perspective...Salvation is a three-phase process that is initiated by God alone via the Atonement. What was accomplished at the Atonement was universal Justification for all ungodly men (without merit or contrition of any kind by the sinner man). This was an unmerited gift from God. Messiah's Death, Blood and Life was accepted by the Father and in so doing Christ redeemed all men from the slavery of sin and death (making our Peace with God) and made it possible by trusting in His Faithfulness for us to enter into a living relationship with the Father that begins the New Birth at our Sanctification. This is where we are given His Spirit and are cooperatively transformed into the image of Christ; these are the works He has given us to walk in. He works in us by His Spirit that we have now indwelling in us; this is how we overcome..by His Blood and the word of our testimony. God at the Judgement will then purge us completely of all sin and present us as though we have never sinned; and we will be like the sinless Son of God. Those of mankind who are Justified by His Atonement but choose to resist God's offer of Covenant relationship by willingly being transformed into His image (Sanctification) will be punished in Hell for a time but after (God knows) they have been humbled and purged by the cleansing of the fiery punishment will eventually call on God as we all have who are Sanctified now into covenant relationship; so eventually they too will be Glorified and made to be like the sinless Son of God. How do we know this...? God has sworn that those He Justified "HE" will Glorify. It's not dependent on man (we would screw it up), but He has promised those He Justified He Will Glorify; you can't get any plainer than that! Evidenced by the fact that we all were made in His image; and God had a failsafe from before the Beginning...Christ crucified! When Adam sinned and his first-born son killed his youngest son...in both cases though both Adam and Cain had direct warning from God…they sinned anyway, but what did God do...He cursed the ground not Adam and He put a sign on Cain forehead to protect him. This is parental Love of a Father...His unconditional Covenants are His to accomplish...the one conditional Mosaic Covenant exposed just how sinful we are, and it became a Covenant of death to us! SO, the Father of Mercy and Justice paid the price for our freedom and wholeness because we could never meet His righteousness on our own, so as our Kinsman Redeemer He took our place and became victorious over death and He hid us in Christ, so we have perfect Peace now with God. The thing we need to remember is that though God does allow temporal punishment, that is only meant to humble us for our good; and even physical death like what happened to Pharaoh because of hard heartedness was only temporal. He intends to bring all His children (image of God) home that the enemy has corrupted. See Hebrewgospeldotcom to learn that the NT was originally written to the church in Hebrew and then translated into Greek later. There are only 4 surviving NT Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts. Scholars would have you believe that because there are tons and tons of Greek NT manuscripts (compared to the Sephardic Hebrew) and that they are the oldest…that this = "original" NT writtings.... that is flimsy at best and purposely biased. God always goes to the Jew first and then the Gentile..this is the model Jesus also followed. The first century Believers were mostly Jewish and all the Disciples who wrote the NT were Jewish eyewitnesses of Christ. The reason the Hebrew NT manuscripts are so rare is because very quickly many more Gentiles became believers and fewer and fewer Jews were continuing to convert to Christianity, so the need for Greek translations was practical. The OT Greek translation took OT Hebrew and stylized it into a Greek linguistic construct, but no one ever says the Greek Septuagint predates the OT Hebrew! The Greek NT is obviously a translation from the Hebrew...the evidence of its Hebraic originality is the chiasms, idioms and Covenantal imagery. The Hebrew NT is written in a Conventual relationship construct whereas the Greek is abstract in its concepts and emphasizes our faith not His Faithfulness; as an example, Greek says in John 1 "The Word","The Word","The Word" and the Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts say "The Son", "The Son", "The Son".

 

[HigherGospel]

Here's a different perspective...Salvation is a three-phase process that is initiated by God alone via the Atonement. What was accomplished at the Atonement was universal Justification for all ungodly men (without merit or contrition of any kind by the sinner man). This was an unmerited gift from God. Messiah's Death, Blood and Life was accepted by the Father and in so doing Christ redeemed all men from the slavery of sin and death (making our Peace with God) and made it possible by trusting in His Faithfulness for us to enter into a living relationship with the Father that begins the New Birth at our Sanctification. This is where we are given His Spirit and are cooperatively transformed into the image of Christ; these are the works He has given us to walk in. He works in us by His Spirit that we have now indwelling in us; this is how we overcome..by His Blood and the word of our testimony. God at the Judgement will then purge us completely of all sin and present us as though we have never sinned; and we will be like the sinless Son of God. Those of mankind who are Justified by His Atonement but choose to resist God's offer of Covenant relationship by willingly being transformed into His image (Sanctification) will be punished in Hell for a time but after (God knows) they have been humbled and purged by the cleansing of the fiery punishment will eventually call on God as we all have who are Sanctified now into covenant relationship; so eventually they too will be Glorified and made to be like the sinless Son of God. How do we know this...? God has sworn that those He Justified "HE" will Glorify. It's not dependent on man (we would screw it up), but He has promised those He Justified He Will Glorify; you can't get any plainer than that! Evidenced by the fact that we all were made in His image; and God had a failsafe from before the Beginning...Christ crucified! When Adam sinned and his first-born son killed his youngest son...in both cases though both Adam and Cain had direct warning from God…they sinned anyway, but what did God do...He cursed the ground not Adam and He put a sign on Cain forehead to protect him. This is parental Love of a Father...His unconditional Covenants are His to accomplish...the one conditional Mosaic Covenant exposed just how sinful we are, and it became a Covenant of death to us! SO, the Father of Mercy and Justice paid the price for our freedom and wholeness because we could never meet His righteousness on our own, so as our Kinsman Redeemer He took our place and became victorious over death and He hid us in Christ, so we have perfect Peace now with God. The thing we need to remember is that though God does allow temporal punishment, that is only meant to humble us for our good; and even physical death like what happened to Pharaoh because of hard heartedness was only temporal. He intends to bring all His children (image of God) home that the enemy has corrupted. See Hebrewgospeldotcom to learn that the NT was originally written to the church in Hebrew and then translated into Greek later. There are only 4 surviving NT Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts. Scholars would have you believe that because there are tons and tons of Greek NT manuscripts (compared to the Sephardic Hebrew) and that they are the oldest…that this = "original" NT writtings.... that is flimsy at best and purposely biased. God always goes to the Jew first and then the Gentile..this is the model Jesus also followed. The first century Believers were mostly Jewish and all the Disciples who wrote the NT were Jewish eyewitnesses of Christ. The reason the Hebrew NT manuscripts are so rare is because very quickly many more Gentiles became believers and fewer and fewer Jews were continuing to convert to Christianity, so the need for Greek translations was practical. The OT Greek translation took OT Hebrew and stylized it into a Greek linguistic construct, but no one ever says the Greek Septuagint predates the OT Hebrew! The Greek NT is obviously a translation from the Hebrew...the evidence of its Hebraic originality is the chiasms, idioms and Covenantal imagery. The Hebrew NT is written in a Conventual relationship construct whereas the Greek is abstract in its concepts and emphasizes our faith not His Faithfulness; as an example, Greek says in John 1 "The Word","The Word","The Word" and the Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts say "The Son", "The Son", "The Son".

Dude, please learn how to use paragraphs!

 

[Caveman]

Dude, please learn how to use paragraphs!

I hear you…but the substance of what I posted is true..

 

[HigherGospel]

I hear you…but the substance of what I posted is true..

Yeah but nobody is going to read it in that format.

I know I'm not.

 

[mailmandan]

How do you reconcile the many NT verses that blatantly say otherwise? For example, one of many:

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16​

​

btw again, there is no such thing as spiritual salvation. It's salvation of the whole person, ie, body, soul and spirit

In regard to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in perservering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we perservere. (1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 1 Peter 1:5) God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perserverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.

If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down a rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

 

[HigherGospel]

but it's not in our own power that we persevere

That came from the false doctrines of calvinism.

We can do all things thru Christ Who strengthens us - Phil 4:13

Apparently some here don't have the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Matthew 24:13
he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[mailmandan]

That came from the false doctrines of calvinism.

We can do all things thru Christ Who strengthens us - Phil 4:13

Apparently some here don't have the Holy Spirit. View attachment 282243

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Matthew 24:13
he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Oh the irony. I see that Calvinism remains your boogie man and your favorite straw man argument. So, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us or through ourselves in our own strength? Those who don't have the Holy Spirit are left with SELF righteousness and SELF preservation marinated in SELF promotion.

In regard to Romans 6:16, there is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 -"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

In regard to Matthew 24:13, enduring to the end is the mark of genuine faith and those who survive the catastrophic events leading up to Christ's second coming will be spared from death and be physically present in His earthly kingdom.

 

[Caveman]

If I put forth empty accusation, then we're both equally guilty. I did not push aside the commandments. I'm dead to them as are all who are in the body of Christ:

Galtians 3:1-2, 7-8, 11-14
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ...
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. ...
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The ten commandments are still an outline of the Mosaic Law. If you're going to try and live any of them perfectly, then you're bound my all of them. If you believe you're saved and retain your salvation through ordinances, then you've got a problem on your hands:

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colassias 2:14, 20
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ...
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Jesus spoke highly of the first two of the ten is a fulfilment of the others, and yet nobody can live any of them to the satisfaction of the perfection of the Lord when one is under grace. Not even the prophets lived the Law perfectly, righteously, to the extent that they still did not need what Jesus accomplished on the cross.

Do you not have Holy Spirit within you to live according to the Lord's desire for you under grace? Do you think that you are somehow in possession of any virtue in and or yourself that living ordinances will somehow supplement the grace of God? If so, then you're living in the pride of flesh.

It's entirely up to you. I let the Spirit live the righteous Law through me. I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and His righteousness He has imputed upon me. What about you? Do you honestly think that trying to live the ten will somehow magnify you in His sight? Good luck with that because you're going to need it.

MM

We often conflate the commandments given by Moses (so confusion is the result) but we are now under the Law of Messiah (LOM) which is a higher law than the Mosaic Law which says "you must love your neighbor as yourself" whereas LOM says "you shall love your neighbor as I have loved you" = higher law and greater Grace...God is interested in our growth in the Spirit, so when we break His Law, we confess our sin, and He Graciously forgives us so we can realign with His Spirit to enable us to walk in His Ways.

 

[Caveman]

Yeah but nobody is going to read it in that format.

I know I'm not.

Here's

Yeah but nobody is going to read it in that format.

I know I'm not.

maybe this is more palatable:

How the Atonement (Justification) Accomplished All

• Universal Justification (Atonement):
  • At the cross, Messiah’s death, blood, and life were accepted by the Father as the once-for-all payment.
  • This act was universal — gifted to all ungodly men without merit, contrition, or human effort.
  • By this, Christ redeemed all humanity from slavery to sin and death, securing peace with God.
  • This is the foundation: God alone initiated salvation through the Atonement.
• Invitation to Sanctification (New Birth):
  • Justification opens the door, but only those who accept God’s covenant invitation enter sanctification.
  • The New Birth is given only to those being sanctified — those who receive His Spirit.
  • In sanctification, the Spirit indwells us, transforming us into Christ’s image, and empowering us to walk in the works He prepared.
  • Our overcoming is by His blood and the word of our testimony, not by our own strength.
• Glorification Guaranteed by the Atonement:
  • God has sworn: those He justified, He will glorify.
  • At judgment, He will purge all sin and present us as though we had never sinned.
  • Even those who resist sanctification may face temporal punishment (Hell as purging fire), but ultimately they too will be humbled, purified, and glorified — because the Atonement was God’s unilateral act.
• God’s Covenant Faithfulness Displayed:
  • The Mosaic covenant exposed human sinfulness and became a covenant of death, but the Father of Mercy and Justice fulfilled His unconditional covenant through the Atonement.
  • Christ, as our Kinsman Redeemer, took our place, defeated death, and hid us in Himself.
  • The Atonement was the “failsafe” from before the beginning — Christ crucified was God’s eternal plan to ensure His children (made in His image) would be brought home.
  • Even temporal punishments (Adam, Cain, Pharaoh) reveal God’s parental love — judgment is corrective, not final separation.
• Textual Witness (Hebrew vs. Greek):
  • The Septuagint stylized Hebrew covenantal language into Greek constructs, but it never predated or displaced the Hebrew OT.
  • In the same way, the abundance of Greek NT manuscripts does not prove Greek originality.
  • The NT is saturated with Hebraic chiasms, idioms, and covenantal imagery, pointing to Hebrew primacy.
  • Greek manuscripts often abstract concepts into “faith” as human belief, while Hebrew manuscripts emphasize God’s faithfulness in the Atonement.
  • Example: John 1 in Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” rather than “The Word,” keeping the covenantal focus intact.
  • For manuscript evidence and study, see HebrewGospeldotcom, which highlights the surviving Sephardic Hebrew NT manuscripts and their covenantal constructs.

The Big Picture

• Justification (Atonement) is the fountainhead: universally accomplished, inviting all into sanctification.
• Sanctification (New Birth) is given only to those who accept the covenant invitation and receive His Spirit.
• Glorification is guaranteed for all who were justified, whether through sanctification now or eventual purging later.
• God’s covenant faithfulness ensures the plan cannot fail — Christ crucified was the eternal failsafe.
• Textual witness confirms the Hebraic foundation of both OT and NT, resisting the claim that Greek abundance equals originality.

Everything — sanctification, glorification, covenant faithfulness, even the textual witness of Scripture — flows from the Atonement.​

 

[Caveman]

We often conflate the commandments given by Moses (so confusion is the result) but we are now under the Law of Messiah (LOM) which is a higher law than the Mosaic Law which says "you must love your neighbor as yourself" whereas LOM says "you shall love your neighbor as I have loved you" = higher law and greater Grace...God is interested in our growth in the Spirit, so when we break His Law, we confess our sin, and He Graciously forgives us so we can realign with His Spirit to enable us to walk in His Ways.

How the Atonement (Justification) Accomplished All

• Universal Justification (Atonement):
• • At the cross, Messiah’s death, blood, and life were accepted by the Father as the once-for-all payment.
  • This act was universal — gifted to all ungodly men without merit, contrition, or human effort.
  • By this, Christ redeemed all humanity from slavery to sin and death, securing peace with God.
  • This is the foundation: God alone initiated salvation through the Atonement.
• Invitation to Sanctification (New Birth):
• • Justification opens the door, but only those who accept God’s covenant invitation enter sanctification.
  • The New Birth is given only to those being sanctified — those who receive His Spirit.
  • In sanctification, the Spirit indwells us, transforming us into Christ’s image, and empowering us to walk in the works He prepared.
  • Our overcoming is by His blood and the word of our testimony, not by our own strength.
• Glorification Guaranteed by the Atonement:
• • God has sworn: those He justified, He will glorify.
  • At judgment, He will purge all sin and present us as though we had never sinned.
  • Even those who resist sanctification may face temporal punishment (Hell as purging fire), but ultimately they too will be humbled, purified, and glorified — because the Atonement was God’s unilateral act.
• God’s Covenant Faithfulness Displayed:
• • The Mosaic covenant exposed human sinfulness and became a covenant of death, but the Father of Mercy and Justice fulfilled His unconditional covenant through the Atonement.
  • Christ, as our Kinsman Redeemer, took our place, defeated death, and hid us in Himself.
  • The Atonement was the “failsafe” from before the beginning — Christ crucified was God’s eternal plan to ensure His children (made in His image) would be brought home.
  • Even temporal punishments (Adam, Cain, Pharaoh) reveal God’s parental love — judgment is corrective, not final separation.
• Textual Witness (Hebrew vs. Greek):
• • The Septuagint stylized Hebrew covenantal language into Greek constructs, but it never predated or displaced the Hebrew OT.
  • In the same way, the abundance of Greek NT manuscripts does not prove Greek originality.
  • The NT is saturated with Hebraic chiasms, idioms, and covenantal imagery, pointing to Hebrew primacy.
  • Greek manuscripts often abstract concepts into “faith” as human belief, while Hebrew manuscripts emphasize God’s faithfulness in the Atonement.
  • Example: John 1 in Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” rather than “The Word,” keeping the covenantal focus intact.
  • For manuscript evidence and study, see HebrewGospeldotcom, which highlights the surviving Sephardic Hebrew NT manuscripts and their covenantal constructs.

The Big Picture

• Justification (Atonement) is the fountainhead: universally accomplished, inviting all into sanctification.
• Sanctification (New Birth) is given only to those who accept the covenant invitation and receive His Spirit.
• Glorification is guaranteed for all who were justified, whether through sanctification now or eventual purging later.
• God’s covenant faithfulness ensures the plan cannot fail — Christ crucified was the eternal failsafe.
• Textual witness confirms the Hebraic foundation of both OT and NT, resisting the claim that Greek abundance equals originality.

Everything — sanctification, glorification, covenant faithfulness, even the textual witness of Scripture — flows from the Atonement.

 

[Caveman]

MM, you quote Paul repeatedly, but you fail to quote Jesus even once. That is the heart of the problem. Jesus is God’s Word made flesh; He is the one who shows us how to live, and He alone fulfills the Law. Ignoring His teaching while leaning on Paul is not wisdom—it is confusion.
Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15) and “Whoever has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me” (John 14:21). He did not say the Law is dead or irrelevant. He lived it perffectly and teaches us to follow it in spirit and truth. Thomas recognized Him as God when he said, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). Jesus is not separate from the Father; He is God, and salvation comes through Him, not through ignoring His words.
The Ten Commandments are not a mere “handwriting of ordinances” to be tossed aside. They reflect God’s character, and Jesus showed us how to obey them with love. Claiming that grace frees you to ignore His commandments is pride disguised as faith. The Holy Spirit does not empower us to discard Jesus’ teaching; He empowers us to live it.
MM, stop trying to elevate yourself with Paul while leaving Jesus out of the picture. Obedience to Jesus is not optional. Grace does not replace the Law, it enables us to live it in love. If you truly follow Christ, you must understand and follow His words, not only Paul’s letters.

We often conflate the commandments given by Moses (so confusion is the result) but we are now under the Law of Messiah (LOM) which is a higher law than the Mosaic Law which says "you must love your neighbor as yourself" whereas LOM says "you shall love your neighbor as I have loved you" = higher law and greater Grace...God is interested in our growth in the Spirit, so when we break His Law, we confess our sin, and He Graciously forgives us so we can realign with His Spirit to enable us to walk in His Ways.


How the Atonement (Justification) Accomplished All

• Universal Justification (Atonement):
• • At the cross, Messiah’s death, blood, and life were accepted by the Father as the once-for-all payment.
  • This act was universal — gifted to all ungodly men without merit, contrition, or human effort.
  • By this, Christ redeemed all humanity from slavery to sin and death, securing peace with God.
  • This is the foundation: God alone initiated salvation through the Atonement.
• Invitation to Sanctification (New Birth):
• • Justification opens the door, but only those who accept God’s covenant invitation enter sanctification.
  • The New Birth is given only to those being sanctified — those who receive His Spirit.
  • In sanctification, the Spirit indwells us, transforming us into Christ’s image, and empowering us to walk in the works He prepared.
  • Our overcoming is by His blood and the word of our testimony, not by our own strength.
• Glorification Guaranteed by the Atonement:
• • God has sworn: those He justified, He will glorify.
  • At judgment, He will purge all sin and present us as though we had never sinned.
  • Even those who resist sanctification may face temporal punishment (Hell as purging fire), but ultimately they too will be humbled, purified, and glorified — because the Atonement was God’s unilateral act.
• God’s Covenant Faithfulness Displayed:
• • The Mosaic covenant exposed human sinfulness and became a covenant of death, but the Father of Mercy and Justice fulfilled His unconditional covenant through the Atonement.
  • Christ, as our Kinsman Redeemer, took our place, defeated death, and hid us in Himself.
  • The Atonement was the “failsafe” from before the beginning — Christ crucified was God’s eternal plan to ensure His children (made in His image) would be brought home.
  • Even temporal punishments (Adam, Cain, Pharaoh) reveal God’s parental love — judgment is corrective, not final separation.
• Textual Witness (Hebrew vs. Greek):
• • The Septuagint stylized Hebrew covenantal language into Greek constructs, but it never predated or displaced the Hebrew OT.
  • In the same way, the abundance of Greek NT manuscripts does not prove Greek originality.
  • The NT is saturated with Hebraic chiasms, idioms, and covenantal imagery, pointing to Hebrew primacy.
  • Greek manuscripts often abstract concepts into “faith” as human belief, while Hebrew manuscripts emphasize God’s faithfulness in the Atonement.
  • Example: John 1 in Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” rather than “The Word,” keeping the covenantal focus intact.
  • For manuscript evidence and study, see HebrewGospeldotcom, which highlights the surviving Sephardic Hebrew NT manuscripts and their covenantal constructs.

The Big Picture

• Justification (Atonement) is the fountainhead: universally accomplished, inviting all into sanctification.
• Sanctification (New Birth) is given only to those who accept the covenant invitation and receive His Spirit.
• Glorification is guaranteed for all who were justified, whether through sanctification now or eventual purging later.
• God’s covenant faithfulness ensures the plan cannot fail — Christ crucified was the eternal failsafe.
• Textual witness confirms the Hebraic foundation of both OT and NT, resisting the claim that Greek abundance equals originality.

Everything — sanctification, glorification, covenant faithfulness, even the textual witness of Scripture — flows from the Atonement.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Born from above/regeneration cannot be undone

Why can't it be undone?

 

[Caveman]

Why can't it be undone?

We often conflate the commandments given by Moses (so confusion is the result) but we are now under the Law of Messiah (LOM) which is a higher law than the Mosaic Law which says "you must love your neighbor as yourself" whereas LOM says "you shall love your neighbor as I have loved you" = higher law and greater Grace...God is interested in our growth in the Spirit, so when we break His Law, we confess our sin, and He Graciously forgives us so we can realign with His Spirit to enable us to walk in His Ways.


How the Atonement (Justification) Accomplished All

• Universal Justification (Atonement):
• • At the cross, Messiah’s death, blood, and life were accepted by the Father as the once-for-all payment.
  • This act was universal — gifted to all ungodly men without merit, contrition, or human effort.
  • By this, Christ redeemed all humanity from slavery to sin and death, securing peace with God.
  • This is the foundation: God alone initiated salvation through the Atonement.
• Invitation to Sanctification (New Birth):
• • Justification opens the door, but only those who accept God’s covenant invitation enter sanctification.
  • The New Birth is given only to those being sanctified — those who receive His Spirit.
  • In sanctification, the Spirit indwells us, transforming us into Christ’s image, and empowering us to walk in the works He prepared.
  • Our overcoming is by His blood and the word of our testimony, not by our own strength.
• Glorification Guaranteed by the Atonement:
• • God has sworn: those He justified, He will glorify.
  • At judgment, He will purge all sin and present us as though we had never sinned.
  • Even those who resist sanctification may face temporal punishment (Hell as purging fire), but ultimately they too will be humbled, purified, and glorified — because the Atonement was God’s unilateral act.
• God’s Covenant Faithfulness Displayed:
• • The Mosaic covenant exposed human sinfulness and became a covenant of death, but the Father of Mercy and Justice fulfilled His unconditional covenant through the Atonement.
  • Christ, as our Kinsman Redeemer, took our place, defeated death, and hid us in Himself.
  • The Atonement was the “failsafe” from before the beginning — Christ crucified was God’s eternal plan to ensure His children (made in His image) would be brought home.
  • Even temporal punishments (Adam, Cain, Pharaoh) reveal God’s parental love — judgment is corrective, not final separation.
• Textual Witness (Hebrew vs. Greek):
• • The Septuagint stylized Hebrew covenantal language into Greek constructs, but it never predated or displaced the Hebrew OT.
  • In the same way, the abundance of Greek NT manuscripts does not prove Greek originality.
  • The NT is saturated with Hebraic chiasms, idioms, and covenantal imagery, pointing to Hebrew primacy.
  • Greek manuscripts often abstract concepts into “faith” as human belief, while Hebrew manuscripts emphasize God’s faithfulness in the Atonement.
  • Example: John 1 in Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts says “The Son” rather than “The Word,” keeping the covenantal focus intact.
  • For manuscript evidence and study, see HebrewGospeldotcom, which highlights the surviving Sephardic Hebrew NT manuscripts and their covenantal constructs.

The Big Picture

• Justification (Atonement) is the fountainhead: universally accomplished, inviting all into sanctification.
• Sanctification (New Birth) is given only to those who accept the covenant invitation and receive His Spirit.
• Glorification is guaranteed for all who were justified, whether through sanctification now or eventual purging later.
• God’s covenant faithfulness ensures the plan cannot fail — Christ crucified was the eternal failsafe.
• Textual witness confirms the Hebraic foundation of both OT and NT, resisting the claim that Greek abundance equals originality.

Everything — sanctification, glorification, covenant faithfulness, even the textual witness of Scripture — flows from the Atonement.

 

[Musicmaster]

MM, you quote Paul repeatedly, but you fail to quote Jesus even once. That is the heart of the problem. Jesus is God’s Word made flesh; He is the one who shows us how to live, and He alone fulfills the Law. Ignoring His teaching while leaning on Paul is not wisdom—it is confusion.
Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15) and “Whoever has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me” (John 14:21). He did not say the Law is dead or irrelevant. He lived it perffectly and teaches us to follow it in spirit and truth. Thomas recognized Him as God when he said, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). Jesus is not separate from the Father; He is God, and salvation comes through Him, not through ignoring His words.
The Ten Commandments are not a mere “handwriting of ordinances” to be tossed aside. They reflect God’s character, and Jesus showed us how to obey them with love. Claiming that grace frees you to ignore His commandments is pride disguised as faith. The Holy Spirit does not empower us to discard Jesus’ teaching; He empowers us to live it.
MM, stop trying to elevate yourself with Paul while leaving Jesus out of the picture. Obedience to Jesus is not optional. Grace does not replace the Law, it enables us to live it in love. If you truly follow Christ, you must understand and follow His words, not only Paul’s letters.

Let's see what Jesus said:

Matthew 15:24 — But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

His instructions for salvation, then, were for Israel.

Whether you are doing is much like the Israelires saying to Moses, "Well, we aren't going to listen to what Moses says anything longer, but only to YHWH..."

Paul was God's apostle to the body of Christ. If you choose to ignore what the Lord inspired him to instruct to us, and instead try to pit Paul against Jesus, then that's on you to shoulder the cost for doing that. Jesus gave to Paul what it is that we need to know for our salvation today.

Recall that Jesus never said anything about the cross in His gospel message of the Kingdom while ministering on this earth ONLY to Israel...

MM

 

[HeIsHere]

Why can't it be undone?

The correct question is does God state He will undo it?....... and where does He clarify how, when and at what point?
He doesn't.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The correct question is does God state He will undo it?....... and where does He clarify how, when and at what point?
He doesn't.

What does having one's name blotted out of the book of life mean?

And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. Philippians 4:3​

​

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5​

 

[vassal]

Let's see what Jesus said:

Matthew 15:24 — But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

His instructions for salvation, then, were for Israel.

Whether you are doing is much like the Israelires saying to Moses, "Well, we aren't going to listen to what Moses says anything longer, but only to YHWH..."

Paul was God's apostle to the body of Christ. If you choose to ignore what the Lord inspired him to instruct to us, and instead try to pit Paul against Jesus, then that's on you to shoulder the cost for doing that. Jesus gave to Paul what it is that we need to know for our salvation today.

Recall that Jesus never said anything about the cross in His gospel message of the Kingdom while ministering on this earth ONLY to Israel...

MM

what did Jesus say later? back to square one with you. Jesus sent the disaiples to preach all he did and say to EVERYONE you just refuse to acknowledge this fact ans also that Peter was appointed by God to preach to the gentiles act 15:7
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

I explained all this already why do you continue to contradict and ignore valid scripture?.