Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

The "profile" of the class clown comes to mind.

I see that you're thoroughly self-absorbed in SELF again.

 

[Me_Clay]

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV):
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

It makes no difference if when this happens. Here the reason is clear. Men perish not because the god of Calvinism did not Elect them, but because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. Their condemnation rests upon their rejection of truth, not an arbitrary decree. Calvinism’s doctrine of “Unconditional Election” says there are no conditions at all, no reasons given why one is saved and another is not. This is flatly contrary to the plain statement of 2 Thessalonians 2:10.

Jonah 3:10 (KJV):
“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”

Look at the full context. Jonah entered Nineveh proclaiming God’s wrath: “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown” (Jonah 3:4). The people were warned of certain destruction. But instead of being destroyed, the Ninevites humbled themselves, fasted, and turned from their evil ways. Scripture says plainly that God turned back from the judgment He was going to bring upon them because of what they did, and not based upon some sort of Unconditional Election. This shows that God’s mercy was conditional on their repentance, not on a hidden decree.


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Calvinism has the scent of death?(Agree / Disagree)

 

[Jordon]

In Deuteronomy 7, God told the children of Israel to destroy the idolatrous nations inhabiting the land of Canaan:

Deuteronomy 7:1-5

1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

vs 1 – God promised that He would remove the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hives, and the Jebusites ... seven nations that were greater and mightier than the children of Israel.

vs 2 – God instructed the children of Israel to smite them, utterly destroy them, make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them.

vs 3 – do not marry them ... why? ... answer in vs 4.

vs 4 – if the sons of the children of Israel marry the daughters from the nations, the sons would be turned away from following God to serve other gods (idols/idolatry).

vs 5 – God's instruction – destroy their altars, break down their images, cut down their groves, burn their graven images.

The children of Israel failed to do as God instructed as revealed in Joshua 9.





God hardening the heart is not a good thing, Jordon.

God's instruction to us is that we are not to harden our hearts.

When we come across folks who treat us harshly due to unbelief, God is with us through the onslaught of their unbelief. God strengthens us so that we may endure, God comforts us when our hearts feel the sting of fiery darts, God brings peace to our hearts when we are anxious.

We are also instructed to be like the Bereans ... bring what is being told to us to the Word of God and let the Word of God discern whether what someone tells us is in alignment with God's Word.

Acts 17:10-12

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

now look at what the religious folks did when they heard Paul and Silas had gone into Berea:

Act 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

This is what Paul dealt with wherever he preached. He went into various locations to teach God's Word ... then the religious folks would come in and cause a ruckus.

Paul endured the onslaught and when Paul asked God to remove the thorn in the flesh from him, God told Paul My grace is sufficient for thee.

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I do not believe Rufus or Genez are treating you harshly due to unbelief. I believe both are here sharing what they know and believe from Scripture. This is a Bible discussion forum and it is not for the faint of heart ... nor is it a forum to belittle others ... however, the discussion can get heated and sometimes we need to take a step back so that we can be settled by God and discuss Scripture in a meaningful manner while treating other believers as God would have us treat them.

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another thing you've not answered yet.

Or you've not seen

In Romans 9:18

The lord says whom he hardens he hardens, and whom he has mercy in he does.

Well what can they have with a heart of unbelief,
Here it is

Is a saved person going to sin because of unbelief or because of belief in what he doing is correct.

So can the lord harden your heart to not sin.

What is strength in the heart,

Why look at hardening in one direction.

When the Adams heart was hardened by who's will was that.

Did the lord not say if eat from that tree you will die.

If the lord hardens your heart in unbelief for another reason with strength will you show mercy ?

 

[Rufus]

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV):
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

It makes no difference if when this happens. Here the reason is clear. Men perish not because the god of Calvinism did not Elect them, but because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. Their condemnation rests upon their rejection of truth, not an arbitrary decree. Calvinism’s doctrine of “Unconditional Election” says there are no conditions at all, no reasons given why one is saved and another is not. This is flatly contrary to the plain statement of 2 Thessalonians 2:10.

Jonah 3:10 (KJV):
“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”

Look at the full context. Jonah entered Nineveh proclaiming God’s wrath: “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown” (Jonah 3:4). The people were warned of certain destruction. But instead of being destroyed, the Ninevites humbled themselves, fasted, and turned from their evil ways. Scripture says plainly that God turned back from the judgment He was going to bring upon them because of what they did, and not based upon some sort of Unconditional Election. This shows that God’s mercy was conditional on their repentance, not on a hidden decree.
….

Quote or cite the conditions in the New Covenant that God's chosen people must meet in order to be saved.

I believe the Neinevites lived during the conditional Old Covenant period? But even so...God certainly had his elect in Nineveh as clearly evidenced by "forcing" Jonah to obey his command to preach the gospel.

And finally, unless the Ninevites were something less than human beings, their ways were NOT in themselves -- but in God who directs the steps of all mankind.

 

[Rufus]

Calvinism has the scent of death?(Agree / Disagree)

Just like the true gospel has an aroma of death to those who are perishing (2Cor 2:15).

 

[Jordon]

Just like the true gospel has an aroma of death to those who are perishing (2Cor 2:15).

I think you should be asking him what he thinks

 

[Rufus]

John Piper:

“Has God predetermined every tiny detail in the universe, such as dust particles in the air and all of our besetting sins? Yes… Now the reason I believe that is because the Bible says, “The dice are thrown in the lap, and every decision is from the Lord” (Proverbs 16:33).”

“God is able without blameworthy ‘tempting’ to see to it that a person does what God ordains for him to do even if it involves evil.”


R.C. Sproul Jr.:

“God wills all things that come to pass…God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin.”


Edwin Palmer:

“All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history–whether inorganic matter, vegetation, animal, man or angels (both good and evil ones)– come to pass because God ordained them. Even sin– the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history… Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin…Although sin and unbelief are contrary to what God commands…God has included them in his sovereign decree (ordained them, caused them to certainly come to pass).

Gordan H. Clark:
*** “I wish very frankly and pointedly to assert that if a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it…” He goes on to assert, “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign. Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…The Bible therefore explicitly teaches that God creates sin.“
.....

Hmmm...how can this be? Since God's grace is totally ineffectual, then this reduces the god of FWers to a possible or potential savior, giving one and all the mere opportunity to be saved. Likewise, when God withholds his saving grace, He does unleash the potential of evil in sinners' hearts which gives them the opportunity to sin.

Tell me, sir, do you believe that God actively restrains evil in this world, or is He merely a passive observer that reads cosmic crystal balls?

 

[Rufus]

I think you should be asking him what he thinks

I don't want to go down that dark abyss.

 

[Genez]

You're quite the expert on circular reasoning! You need to prove from scripture that the "world" in Jn 3:16 is being used in the distributive sense. And the only way to do that is to provide explicit statements from the bible that God loves the proud, the wicked, the depraved, the corrupt, etc.. I have already provided several such statements that prove that God loves the righteous, God-fearers, believers, those who call upon his name, those who reciprocate God's love, and those who love His Son. Plus I have proved from explicit statements in the Word that God's love is conditional in nature! So...you've got your work cut out for you. Get busy working on your Mission Impossible!

Rufus... LOOK!
Your shoe laces are untied.

 

[Jordon]

I don't want to go down that dark abyss.

it's up to you how you answer.

But hes Already asked you a question.

My answer I believe was the with work of Christ in Calvin was to spread the light and to not steal it from people or force it.

I believe you where saying something the same in your answer.

But this person is yet to apologise for calling me incoherent like you have.

 

[Jordon]

Rufus... LOOK!
Your shoe laces are untied.

I wonder how many of your pedalers are here, seems quite a few of you have certain words you use.

 

[Rufus]

Once again. He did not stick Satan on him. He gave Satan the option to do as he pleases. Satan could have just went back to wandering to and fro but didnt.

Grace is an unmerited gift mercy is not getting what you deserve. So did he really take either of those away when he didnt let Satan touch him the first time or kill him the second?

Actually, that is an intelligent answer! Just remember your answer the next time one of your FWer comrades complain that God cannot judge fairly if he withholds grace from any sinner or that God causes such grace-deprived sinners to sin! If God didn't cause Satan to sin against Job, then neither does God cause any reprobate to sin. He simply leaves them more exposed to the evil in their own hearts.

 

[Jackson129]

Oh my...it sounds like Jesus is playing favorites to boot.

Matthew 13-¹¹ "He ( Jesus ) awnsered and said unto them ( the apostles ) because it is givin to you ( the apostles ) to know mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. But to them ( the crowds ) it is not givin.

Again in mark the same story

Mark 4-¹¹ And He ( Jesus) said unto them (the apostles) unto you ( the apostles ) it is givin to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. But unto them ( the crowds) that are outside all these things are done in parables.

The ones who it is givin to know the mysteries of God in both these parallel accounts are apostles not the crowds. And not a single person alive for the last 1900 years meets the qualifications of an apostle. Maybe just maybe the people who spoke and walked with Christ were givin special knowledge to you know start the entire church. Unless you think having faith in christ is makes you an apostle.

 

[Rufus]

Rufus... LOOK!
Your shoe laces are untied.

Not anywhere close to your impossible mission.

 

[Jackson129]

Actually, that is an intelligent answer! Just remember your answer the next time one of your FWer comrades complain that God cannot judge fairly if he withholds grace from any sinner or that God causes such grace-deprived sinners to sin! If God didn't cause Satan to sin against Job, then neither does God cause any reprobate to sin. He simply leaves them more exposed to the evil in their own hearts.

But then you are saying you have free will to sin but not to do good.

 

[Jordon]

But then you are saying you have free will to sin but not to do good.

The law of sin is free will

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God hardening a heart is not a good thing eh ?

yes, not a good thing.

Are you completely sure of this ?

yes.

Think about it please

the word "harden" in Romans 9:18 is translated from the Greek word sklērýnō, which means sklērýnō – to harden; become inflexible (literally "dried out"); (figuratively) obstinately stubborn, resisting what God says is right [HELPS Word-studies (bold mine)].

Here are the verses in Scripture in which the word sklērýnō is used:

Acts 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

The hardened heart is the heart of stone ... born again believers have been given the new heart of flesh upon which God writes His Word.

I would also ask you to pray about this hardening of the heart ... I do not believe it is a good thing, Jordon.

.

 

[Jordon]

yes, not a good thing.





yes.





the word "harden" in Romans 9:18 is translated from the Greek word sklērýnō, which means sklērýnō – to harden; become inflexible (literally "dried out"); (figuratively) obstinately stubborn, resisting what God says is right [HELPS Word-studies (bold mine)].

Here are the verses in Scripture in which the word sklērýnō is used:

Acts 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

The hardened heart is the heart of stone ... born again believers have been given the new heart of flesh upon which God writes His Word.

I would also ask you to pray about this hardening of the heart ... I do not believe it is a good thing, Jordon.

.

If God hardens a heart is he doing what he thinks is right ?

 

[Rufus]

Matthew 13-¹¹ "He ( Jesus ) awnsered and said unto them ( the apostles ) because it is givin to you ( the apostles ) to know mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. But to them ( the crowds ) it is not givin.

Again in mark the same story

Mark 4-¹¹ And He ( Jesus) said unto them (the apostles) unto you ( the apostles ) it is givin to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. But unto them ( the crowds) that are outside all these things are done in parables.

The ones who it is givin to know the mysteries of God in both these parallel accounts are apostles not the crowds. And not a single person alive for the last 1900 years meets the qualifications of an apostle. Maybe just maybe the people who spoke and walked with Christ were givin special knowledge to you know start the entire church. Unless you think having faith in christ is makes you an apostle.

And they were also DISCIPLES! Plus all believers are "apostles" in the sense that all Christ's disciples are his messengers (sent ones) commissioned to preach the gospel. All His disciples are His ambassadors, i.e. representatives.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He spoke them and they responded and repented, and they heard only because his word was alive and active. That cut through to there hearts

agree, Jordon. God's Word (Scripture) is a living Word ... God's Word (Scripture) is powerful ... when someone hears God's Word (Scripture), I do not believe denial of truth is the only response a person can have.

Denial of the truth of God's Word is due to a person suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. The person rejects the truth of God's Word.

.