Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Blue155]

When pushed and taking Calvinism logically and consistently, Calvinists cannot answer its problems without contradicting themselves, and that’s how you know a doctrine is false.

 

[Rufus]

God decreeing evil is the most odious of all the Calvinists' folly.
So why is it that they enshrine it with the greatest glee?

Then explain intelligently and coherently how God is not morally culpable for all the losses Job suffered in Job 1 (especially all the lives lost!) and for His own Son's death in Act 4:27-28.

By the way...just in case you're wondering I do have a logical and biblical answer to the problems in both the above passages.

 

[Rufus]

the only good thing about being totally depraved is God is Good in the heart that needs saving

Is God good to all men without exception in terms of His saving grace?

 

[Rufus]

Romans 1 - 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity for the dishonoring of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise!f Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, and boastful. They invent new forms of evil; they disobey their parents. 31 They are senseless, faithless, heartless, merciless.

32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things are worthy of death, they not only continue to do these things, but also approve of those who practice them.

This inquiring mind is wondering how all the "God gave them over" phrases in the above passage can logically square with FWers' interpretation of 2Pet 3:9.

 

[Jackson129]

Then explain intelligently and coherently how God is not morally culpable for all the losses Job suffered in Job 1 (especially all the lives lost!) and for His own Son's death in Act 4:27-28.

By the way...just in case you're wondering I do have a logical and biblical answer to the problems in both the above passages.

God didnt do anything to Job he let Satan have free will to do as he pleases with him. Satan knew he was gonna loose the bet he just couldn't resist himself.

 

[Blue155]

Calvinism..one of the many false man made doctrines of contradictions. Just about every answer they give when pointed out their contradictions either goes back to the elect, God’s sovereignty, or it’s a mystery.

 

[Blue155]

God didnt do anything to Job he let Satan have free will to do as he pleases with him. Satan knew he was gonna loose the bet he just couldn't resist himself.

Good grief…if Calvinism believes God did something to Job, then it is no wonder why atheists believe Job is about a sadistic deity torturing Job for a bet with the devil.

Yep, Calvinism making new atheists everyday.

 

[Rufus]

It’s not their fault…they were predestined and eternally decreed to do so
Saying we have no free-will places all the blame on God, and shifts all the responsibility away from them.

Nonsense! ALL the blame goes on CV5's superhero Adam. One man's sin utterly ruined the entire creation!

 

[Rufus]

Jackson129 said:


God didnt do anything to Job he let Satan have free will to do as he pleases with him. Satan knew he was gonna loose the bet he just couldn't resist himself.

What bet was that?

Also, when you say that God "let Satan have free will to do as he pleases with him" means God permitted Satan to act within limitations. (And this fact makes your above statement inaccurate because Satan was not permitted by God to do anything he wanted to Job.)

Also, since you allude to God's permissive will, this doesn't change the fact that God ultimately decreed that Satan have the power to do what he did to Job. Ultimately, God determined to let Satan have his way with Job with the one exception stated in Job 1.

So...how is God not morally culpable for the many evils that befell Job, since Satan would have had no power to harm Job apart from God's will.

 

[cv5]

When pushed and taking Calvinism logically and consistently, Calvinists cannot answer its problems without contradicting themselves, and that’s how you know a doctrine is false.

Generally, Calvinists stumble right out of the gate at "God so loved" and "whosoever"......
Its all downhill from there.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Rufus]

Good grief…if Calvinism believes God did something to Job, then it is no wonder why atheists believe Job is about a sadistic deity torturing Job for a bet with the devil.

Yep, Calvinism making new atheists everyday.

I do not believe God is morally culpable for what happened to Job. But you FWers, who dearly love and rely so heavily on your carnal, profane imaginations and reasoning in attempting to refute the Doctrines of Grace do believe that God is morally culpable if He withholds saving grace to sinners to escape their dire and deadly spiritual predicament.

 

[Jackson129]

Nonsense! ALL the blame goes on CV5's superhero Adam. One man's sin utterly ruined the entire creation!

Actually it was Satan's sin that started this whole thing off. With his rebellion then decided to thow a monkey wrench into mans relm as well. If he wasent whispering in the woman's ear would things of happened the way they did? Dosent matter either way Adam and eve listened to a snake and not God. Here we are.

 

[HeIsHere]

You're imagining things again, as is Blue155. There's no contradiction to point out others sins or errors. The basis for God's judgment of all mankind is man's moral/spiritual culpability due to sin.

Your system does not allow for culpability really, it is all by decree.
Seems like you forget your system sometimes.

 

[Jackson129]

What bet was that?

Also, when you say that God "let Satan have free will to do as he pleases with him" means God permitted Satan to act within limitations. (And this fact makes your above statement inaccurate because Satan was not permitted by God to do anything he wanted to Job.)

Also, since you allude to God's permissive will, this doesn't change the fact that God ultimately decreed that Satan have the power to do what he did to Job. Ultimately, God determined to let Satan have his way with Job with the one exception stated in Job 1.

So...how is God not morally culpable for the many evils that befell Job, since Satan would have had no power to harm Job apart from God's will.

Wait are you actually saying because God let Satan do it he made Satan do it?

 

[Blue155]

Generally, Calvinists stumble right out of the gate at "God so loved" and "whosoever"......
Its all downhill from there.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Yes..they are having God eternally decree Satan do what he did to Job. Pretty sick.

 

[cv5]

Yes..they are having God eternally decree Satan do what he did to Job. Pretty sick.

And their horrific take on the Job escapade is easily proven to be false by a careful study/analysis of the text.

But.....they don't care. Could it be that coddling their chosenite superiority complex takes priority over Biblical truth?

 

[Blue155]

And their horrific take on the Job escapade is easily proven to be false by a careful study/analysis of the text.

But.....they don't care. Could it be that coddling their chosenite superiority complex takes priority over Biblical truth?

Yes. They bring their Calvinistic presuppositions to the text. Calvinism must be taught. You won’t get that from a proper understanding of God’s nature and the totality of His nature. But I guess we are eternally decreed to believe this way by God, so they should be pleased with His eternal decree lol. When they say we are Pelagian heretics, etc etc, they are actually saying that about God’s unchangeable eternal decree. Essentially, they are saying His unchangeable eternal decree is heretical.

 

[OLDBUTNEW]

Cool

I thought some proper Calvin bells would do the job nicely

@Jordon ; Thanks, bro: good video with nice music!

 

[OLDBUTNEW]

I don't know which camp you fall into, but I must admit your attitude toward others has certainly improved.
And please note, this comes from someone that fits into your age category.

@BillyBob : Thanks for that, mate!

 

[OLDBUTNEW]

The truth about the Calvin college @OLDBUTNEW

https://youtube.com/shorts/lzdAT9FuFj8?si=tragQXQfoSae_a_x

@Jordon : Good one, bro!