Rapture true or false
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(You really need the full rational, when talking to folks, dispensationalist, steeped in a life long doctrinal deception / prison for their minds.)
Modern Jews Are Not Spiritual Israel
- Romans 2:28–29 – “He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly… but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly…”
- Galatians 3:28–29 – “If ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
- Romans 9:6–8 – “They are not all Israel, which are of Israel…”
)Blessings Brother
Here's another version of this argument of truth... Do your own due diligence, PRAY for and adopt BY FAITH, the experience of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit; ~~> Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son OF God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Logical Sequence of Proof
- Original promise (Gen 12:3) → Universal scope.
- Christ’s mission (Isa 49:6) → Salvation for all peoples.
- New Covenant unity (Gal 3:28; Eph 2:11‑13) → Ethnic barriers removed.
- Spiritual lineage (Rom 9‑11) → “Children of the promise” = believers.
- Seal of the Spirit (Eph 1:13‑14; 1 Pet 2:9) → Identifies true Israel.
The “people of God” (often called “Israel”) is no longer limited to ethnic descendants of Abraham. Rather, anyone—whether of Jewish or Gentile birth—who has received the Holy Spirit of Christ and lives under His righteousness is counted as the true Israel. Below is a concise biblical‑logical proof.
1. The Promise Extends to All Nations
Genesis 12:3 – “And in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
- The original covenant with Abraham is expressly universal: every family (nation) that receives the blessing becomes part of the promised people.
- The Messiah’s mission is to bring salvation to the whole world, not merely to ethnic Israel.
Galatians 3:28 – “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
- Paul explicitly states that ethnic distinctions cease in the New Covenant; believers are united as one body.
- Former “Gentiles” are now brought near to Christ and become part of His people.
Romans 9:6‑8 – “...for they are not all Israel… for the children being not the natural seed, but the seed of the promise… For the children of this flesh are not the children of God.”
- Paul distinguishes between physical Israel and the “children of the promise,” i.e., those regenerated by the Spirit.
- Gentile believers are grafted into the olive tree (Israel) and become part of the covenant people.
Ephesians 1:13‑14 – “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that ye believed… were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise… which is the earnest of our inheritance.”
- The sealing of the Holy Spirit identifies the believer as a member of the covenant community.
(You really need the full rational, when talking to folks, dispensationalist, steeped in a life long doctrinal deception / prison for their minds.)
Modern Jews Are Not Spiritual Israel
This proves "spiritual Israel" for ME.. alone .. but then I "experience" the Holy Spirit, ( who leads in Truth & enlightenment ) which IS the Righteousness of Christ, His obedience to the Will of Father, "The Faith OF Jesus", believing Jesus, and ALL He says, rather than just an intellectual, believe IN Jesus, without the indwell of His Spirit. ( It's hard to explain, as like trying to explain the "taste of chocolate
- Romans 2:28–29 – “He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly… but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly…”
- Galatians 3:28–29 – “If ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
- Romans 9:6–8 – “They are not all Israel, which are of Israel…”
Blessings Brother
Here's another version of this argument of truth... Do your own due diligence, PRAY for and adopt BY FAITH, the experience of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit; ~~> Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son OF God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Logical Sequence of Proof
The New Covenant – Israel Redefined
- Original promise (Gen 12:3) → Universal scope.
- Christ’s mission (Isa 49:6) → Salvation for all peoples.
- New Covenant unity (Gal 3:28; Eph 2:11‑13) → Ethnic barriers removed.
- Spiritual lineage (Rom 9‑11) → “Children of the promise” = believers.
- Seal of the Spirit (Eph 1:13‑14; 1 Pet 2:9) → Identifies true Israel.
The “people of God” (often called “Israel”) is no longer limited to ethnic descendants of Abraham. Rather, anyone—whether of Jewish or Gentile birth—who has received the Holy Spirit of Christ and lives under His righteousness is counted as the true Israel. Below is a concise biblical‑logical proof.
1. The Promise Extends to All Nations
Genesis 12:3 – “And in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
Isaiah 49:6 – “It is a very thing that thou shouldest be a servant unto the LORD… that thou mayest be a light unto the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
- The original covenant with Abraham is expressly universal: every family (nation) that receives the blessing becomes part of the promised people.
2. The New Covenant Makes All Believers One People
- The Messiah’s mission is to bring salvation to the whole world, not merely to ethnic Israel.
Galatians 3:28 – “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Ephesians 2:11‑13 – “Wherefore remember, that ye being in former times Gentiles in the flesh… that at that time ye were separate from Christ… But now in Christ Jesus ye are all made alive.”
- Paul explicitly states that ethnic distinctions cease in the New Covenant; believers are united as one body.
3. The Spiritual Israel – “A Holy People”
- Former “Gentiles” are now brought near to Christ and become part of His people.
Romans 9:6‑8 – “...for they are not all Israel… for the children being not the natural seed, but the seed of the promise… For the children of this flesh are not the children of God.”
Romans 11:17‑24 – “If some of the branches be broken off… the rest of the branches, being grafted in, receive a rich nourishment… For if thou wert cut off from the olive tree… thou wouldst be grafted in again.”
- Paul distinguishes between physical Israel and the “children of the promise,” i.e., those regenerated by the Spirit.
4. The Holy Spirit as the Mark of True Israel
- Gentile believers are grafted into the olive tree (Israel) and become part of the covenant people.
Ephesians 1:13‑14 – “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that ye believed… were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise… which is the earnest of our inheritance.”
1 Peter 2:9 – “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation…”
- The sealing of the Holy Spirit identifies the believer as a member of the covenant community.
I understand what're saying. Who are you addressing these to?
The jew are only physical jew now but not spiritual- the remnant will be during Christ second advent.
Believers are known as spiritual jew
Are you a reformer?
I thought the new covenant is Jesus.
Yes ! I consider us "protestant reformers". having been commissioned, (e.g. as Luther was, by conscience), to point out the "The Dragon, The Beast and the False Prophet" of Rev. 13, to this End Times World, right before the Second Coming of our Lord & King.
I'm addressing this to the multitude of "Christians", " The False Prophet", who call themselves "Believers of Christ" but are not following and believing Jesus as He wants. ( Duet 6:5, Luke 10:27, John 14:15 ) To believe, have faith & repent, to baptism and living a sanctified life, doing the Will of the Father, as Jesus did by His Life of Righteousness, unerring obedience, to our Father, by HIS Faith ... The Faith OF Christ.
The "remnant church" refers to the faithful group of believers who remain loyal to God's teachings and commandments, especially the observance of the Sabbath. They are seen as the continuation of the early Christian church, described in Revelation 12:17, where the "remnant" is depicted as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The remnant church is viewed as a distinctive group that upholds the doctrines that were restored during the Adventist movement, particularly the belief in the soon return of Christ and the importance of living according to God's Word.
Adventist believe that the remnant church has a unique role in proclaiming the "three angels' messages" of Revelation 14, which emphasize the gospel, the fall of Babylon, and the call to worship the Creator. We are tasked with bringing the truth of God's Word to the world in preparation for Christ's second coming. The remnant church, in this sense, is not just a continuation of the Christian church but a specific, divinely-called movement with a prophetic mission.
Here are the key Bible verses from the KJV, that relate to the concept of the "remnant church".
- Revelation 12:17 – The remnant church is described here as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ:
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." - Revelation 14:6-12 – The three angels' messages, which Adventists believe is given to the remnant church to proclaim to the world:
- Revelation 14:6-7:
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." - Revelation 14:8:
"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." - Revelation 14:9-11:
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
- Revelation 14:6-7:
- Revelation 14:12 – A description of the characteristics of the remnant, as those who keep the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus:
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." - Isaiah 1:9 – A reference to the concept of the "remnant" in the Old Testament, where God preserves a faithful remnant:
"Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah." - Romans 11:5 – Paul speaks of a remnant according to the election of grace, further echoing the idea that God preserves a faithful group:
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
QUOTE
""Since the Scripture only speaks of two bodily resurrections and ascensions on this earth, first that of Jesus Himself in Acts 1, and then all His people at His return in 1 Thess 4, then I would conclude that Rev 11 is speaking of the rapture of all OT and NT saints, with the two witnesses specifically mentioned.""
You keep demonstrating you doctrine of omission.
Rev14:14 is the gathering of the Jews.
Then in Matthew 24 we have one taken, one left behind Which is the pretrib gathering of the church.
So, due to verses you omit, We can not make your leap of doctrine.
QUOTE
""That's included when speaking of all the resurrected and changed saints will meet Him in the air at His return to earth. They will be all the OT and NT saints up to the hour of His coming again. And they will not all have died in Christ, for there will be those that are alive and remain on earth at His appearing.""
Nope.
You added Old Testament saints to it.
Only the dead in Christ are resurrected as the bible says.
Adding to the bible guarantees error.
QUOTE
""This is not possible, since there will be those faithful saints remaining alive on earth at Jesus' return, who would endure the beast's temptations and persecutions, but are not yet killed before our Lord's return.""
This is why you need to go beyond postrib talking points.
The BIBLE SAYS all die refusing the mark,which is not my interpretation, it is a fact that NEEDS NONE OF YOUR interpretation. Either the bible is true or you are true.
That is your dilemma.
Go with the bible, not inventions to convince yourself you will "make it through the gt".
If you do, it will be because you took the mark.
LOL
... noooo ... I'm not even sure where Lutherans fall on the Obedience / Disobedience scale ... I believe they keep the RCC's Sunday sabbath, so that would put them on the "disobedient side" as far as God is concerned. I believe. I believe ALL the Protestant Reformers, were correct in calling out the Roman Church, as corrupt, disobedient and Antichrist, the Beast of the "Dragon, Beast & False Prophet of Rev. 13.
I more closely follow the 7th Day Adventists, ... as I understand them to be following God's Word, more closely than any other denomination in the world, today. .. Keeping all 10 of God's Commandments ! Which we believe are required for salvation, John 14:15
... ya know ...
The five statements that sum up what lies at the heart of the Protestant belief:
By Grace alone (Sola Gratia)
Through Faith alone (Sola Fide)
In Christ alone (Solus Christus)
According to Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura)
For God’s Glory alone (Soli Deo Gloria)
My mission is to protest AGAINST the Antichrist spirit in the world TODAY.
Lol
You "made your case" via omission of romans chapters 9-11.
We all know they are cut off.
Replacement teachers start there, omit romans, then teach their doctrine of omission.
You keep demonstrating your doctrines of disbelief and disobedience ... presenting the characteristics of a "false prophet" of Rev. 13.
QUOTE
""You obviously are responding to the wrong post or something. You should try to read what people say more carefully, before responding. A good beginning is to read the Bible more carefully before trying to teach what the Lord God says""
....except you omit, and claim high ground.
Every one of your answers are off.
You have yet to learn outside your teachers
For example, the simple truth, that all die refusing the mark, escapes you becaue it is the first time you are being schooled outside that narrow doctrine, that I am destroying right under your nose.
Lol
You really think slandering the body of Christ helps your tired cause?
Juvenile Saul alenski "destroy the messenger when you can not win the debate on substance."
Get a bible Jr and let's go toe to toe
Try Real Hard to keep it " concept vs concept."
No childish games.
“I don't know about you, but clouds to me are up in the sky, not here on the earth. It also says, "Into the air". Air is all around us, so obviously it does not mean air at ground level. “
i have no issue with that happening at all .
“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. …..
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
1 Corinthians 15:35, 42, 44, 51-53 KJV
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
“That's what most Christians believe with respect to the word rapture in the context of Christ's return. Feel free to avoid the rapture.”
im not trying to avoid Christs return when he raises the dead and gathers his people at all . Just stating a fact about the word “rapture “ not being a biblical term . Unless you speak Latin.
It’s true what you say though a lot of Christian’s call Jesus return when he get here his people “ the rapture “
heres
rap·ture
/ˈrap(t)SHər/
noun
that’s all I was ever saying the word “ rapture “ isn’t a biblical term in English language . But won’t it be a moment of “rapture “ when Jesus comes to gather his people and fulfill his promises ?
- 1.
a feeling of intense pleasure or joy.
"Leonora listened with rapture"
That’s the English definition of the word and here’s what you’re saying ….
2(according to some millenarianteaching) the transporting of believersto heaven at the Second Coming of Christ.)
In Latin I’m saying gonna be “ raptured by the lord “ …..in English I’m saying “ gonna be caught up or “ seized “ by the lord “
because that’s what the Latin word “ rapture” means in English. I was never lol “ avoiding or denying “ Jesus return or what the Bible says about it and gathering his people.
It’s just an aftermarket word people applied in the wrong language probably so they could easier argue “ pre trib rapture ? Post trib rapture”
I don’t disagree people use that term to describe what’s going to happen when Jesus returns at the end
I think you are nitpicking. Do you have a problem with the word missionary? You should. It is the Latin version of apostle. Do you know how many Latin words have been incorporated into English? If you include words derived from French, also a Latin based language, it's around 60%. (I had to study Latin for a year at high school.) Something like 150,000 English words are derived from Greek. English is almost totally an aftermarket language.
If you look at a book written in Old English, you would make little sense of it. "Rapture" has entered the language as a technical term to describe the time when Jesus takes us out of this world and into His eternal presence. There is no conspiracy.
QUOTE
""Perhaps what you mean is, that no godly child of God will continue to endure the tribulation and wrath of man, and the tribulation and wrath of the Lamb at the same time.""
Tired postribber talking points.
All that you need is a bible.
It is the bible that says all die refusing the mark.
I know, I know, THAT ALONE takes any possibility of your doctrine being correct off the table.
again...your doctrine NEVER includes the pretrib rapture verses.
100% doctrine of omission .
....and you seem fine with ALL the omissions
SMH
QUOTE
""God’s covenant was never meant to be inherited by lineage alone, but through faith and obedience to Christ.
Blessing Friend. ... I Pray you'll realize that ALL your other objections to Scriptural Truth will fall apart, if you'll realize this one TRUTH., one WAY, to the one Life""
amazing that you have no knowledge of romans 9-11 as your post demonstrates.
But then you seem to celebrate that refusal to study God's word without some replacement theology goggles.
it really isn't hard.
It will make you cringe though, because your investment is in a farce.
Ignoring what God says of the Jews is definitely an Antichrist spirit.LOL
I believe ALL the Protestant Reformers, were correct in calling out the Roman Church, as corrupt, disobedient and Antichrist, the Beast of the "Dragon, Beast & False Prophet of Rev. 13.
I more closely follow the 7th Day Adventists, ... as I understand them to be following God's Word, more closely than any other denomination in the world, today. .. Keeping all 10 of God's Commandments ! Which we believe are required for salvation, John 14:15
... ya know ...
The five statements that sum up what lies at the heart of the Protestant belief:
By Grace alone (Sola Gratia)
Through Faith alone (Sola Fide)
In Christ alone (Solus Christus)
According to Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura)
For God’s Glory alone (Soli Deo Gloria)
My mission is to protest AGAINST the Antichrist spirit in the world TODAY.
Drop all your formal training and read Hosea.
Start there.
Begin to understand that the COVENANT JEW is Gomer.
( the wife gone awhoring)
What was the end?
A purchase
Hosea buys back the wayward wife.
You will never get it.
I have no idea why I would even try.
You are so blinded that you can see in God's Word that the JEW COMES IN THROGH JESUS IN THE END.
The entire replacement theology destroyed through Gomer.
Thank You Jesus!!!!!!
Truth bringing darkened theology into the light for proper disposal.