Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

God is Justice:

God can not punish someone whom He hardwired to make the wrong choice.

So, I guess all the wicked Jewish and Gentile leaders of Jesus' day cannot be judged by God who determined that they conspire against Jesus to murder Him (Act 4:27-28)?

 

[Genez]

You constantly call Christians calvinists

I call those who profess Calvinist beliefs, Calvinists.
And, when someone sides with them?
Them, too.

You hint at them being gay

You were getting all emotional and reactionary.
Like a woman can get when upset.
Its a gay spirit (spiritually) when males get that way.

You condem them to hell

I never do.
That is the assumption of another.
Not what I say.
I do not believe a Christian can lose his salvation.

You call them false teachers

There are plenty of false teachers today on the internet.
You probably think I am one of them.

You call them all sorts
You prance about stomping your feet everyday here

Only in your imagination.

 

[Cameron143]

No, I say there is free will but "unabated" freewill doesn't exist because that would not be free, it would be chaotic will.

The second part was a question. What are you using to make a choice if not your will? You have yet to tell us that. How can you choose if you are not free to do so? Choice demands freedom.

There is no freewill. There is volition so choices can be made, but all choices are made with some influence.

 

[sawdust]

Tell me how it is that millions of people throughout history never even heard of Jesus, but all treated with equal opportunity.

No-one in the OT heard of Jesus either but they still got saved.

 

[Jordon]

You gotta wait until the Second Coming before you see that! The new earth will indeed be the pristine, perfect Garden.

Gen 2:8 seems to preclude the possibility that the Garden that God planted only in the East would have filled the entire earth.

Also, since God drove Adam out of the Garden, then how could that Garden have filled the entire earth? Where would A&E have gone once they were driven out of the entire garden-earth!?

Finally, it doesn't appear that there was very much vegetation life on the earth, according to Gen 2:5, for the Lord had not sent rain on the earth, plus no one was taking care of the earth. Yet, the situation was very different in the Garden that was filled with vegetation (Gen 2:9). Adam was initially tasked with working the Garden and taking care of it (Gen 2:15).

well the reason I asked was.

All the animals who where saved on noah ark, what garden did they come from.

I don't suppose it's still possible to be in his garden is it if your saved.

 

[Rufus]

I'm not sure you've understood what I said.

Did you imply that God willed the people to reject the lord Before the earth began ?


What I said was, where you see suggestions of that in the bible, is that not a figurative speech.

For instance Jesus spoke in figurative speeches.

Figurative speech

You will by nature do what own will, will do, which is reject Jesus if you don't have my will.

Election is a two-sided coin. God elected his saints in eternity and He elected his sinners also in eternity -- before anyone did anything good or bad. And in BOTH cases, God will be glorified and exalted for putting his infinite love for his people on display for the world to see, and for manifesting his righteousness/justice through judgment of the latter group.

 

[Rufus]

well the reason I asked was.

All the animals who where saved on noah ark, what garden did they come from.

I don't suppose it's still possible to be in his garden is it if your saved.

It appears the animals roamed and filled the earth. Scripture is SILENT on what became of the original Garden, so I, too, will be prudent and remain silent.

 

[Magenta]

There is no freewill. There is volition so choices can be made, but all choices are made with some influence.

Colossians 2 v 8, Romans 16 v 18, Romans 10 v 2, Proverbs 19 v 2a ~ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Zeal is no good without knowledge. They teach as doctrine the precepts of men.

 

[sawdust]

There is no freewill. There is volition so choices can be made, but all choices are made with some influence.

I'm beginning to think you don't know what we mean by free will.

There certainly is no will without restraint, not even God's. If you think we are saying free will is a will without restraint and no authority, then you are mistaken.

 

[Jordon]

Election is a two-sided coin. God elected his saints in eternity and He elected his sinners also in eternity -- before anyone did anything good or bad. And in BOTH cases, God will be glorified and exalted for putting his infinite love for his people on display for the world to see, and for manifesting his righteousness/justice through judgment of the latter group.

he elects the chosen, whom would be adopted unto salvation. Which you or I have no idea until we workout are own salvation.

But How he elects them is by for-knowing them, looking at there whole life first spent with him.

Untill there saved they will by nature also sin. So the question is has God willed them to sin.

They hand themselves to more sin until there saved by nature of there own will, which never was his will.

 

[Rufus]

I disagree that someone not saved has the law written on their hearts. After all, having the law written on one's heart is the new covenant promise to God's people.

Intuitive Revelation is clearly taught in Rom 2. So, RBDB has a point given Rom 2:14-15. The "works of the law", in terms of the unregenerate, are written on hearts of stone. But under the New Covenant, circumcision of the heart softens and sensitizes the hearts of God's chosen people.

 

[Magenta]

Scripture says NO ONE does Good! You know why? Because NO ONE is good, save God alone. All unregenerate men's righteousness
(good works) are filthy rags in God's sight because those works were not done out of love for God or for his glory.

“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone. Mark ch. 10 verse 18 and Luke ch. 18 verse 19 “There is only One who is good.” Matthew ch. 19 verse 17b. There is no one who does good. fr Psalm ch. 14. There is no one righteous, not even one. Romans ch. 3 verse 10. They are corrupt; their ways are vile. There is no one who does good. All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. fr Psalm ch. 53 verses 1-3. Surely there is no righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. Ecclesiastes ch. 7 verse 20. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

[Magenta]

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3 v 23). There is no one who does not sin (from 1 Kings 8 v 46). No one living is righteous before You (from Psalm 143 v 2). If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1 v 8). Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.” (John 8 v 34) And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed (John 3 v 19-20). The heart is incurably wicked (Jeremiah 17 v 9). What is evil? Sin is evil. Stop sugar coating it. All men sin, and commit evil in the sight of God. There are none good, no, not one! A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

 

[Cameron143]

Intuitive Revelation is clearly taught in Rom 2. So, RBDB has a point given Rom 2:14-15. The "works of the law", in terms of the unregenerate, are written on hearts of stone. But under the New Covenant, circumcision of the heart softens and sensitizes the hearts of God's chosen people.

How do you reconcile that with Romans 8:7?

 

[Genez]

So, I guess all the wicked Jewish and Gentile leaders of Jesus' day cannot be judged by God who determined that they conspire against Jesus to murder Him (Act 4:27-28)?

God by knowing how they would want to choose.
Chose them to be the tools needed to finish His project.

They freely wanted to do what they did.
They will be most severely judged for that very reason.

 

[Jordon]

It appears the animals roamed and filled the earth. Scripture is SILENT on what became of the original Garden, so I, too, will be prudent and remain silent.

well we where discussing possibilities if you remember m

 

[cv5]

You don't read too swell, do you? First of all, it was God who stuck Satan on Job -- not the other way around (Job 1:8). God instigated the devil, remember?

Secondly, could Satan have done anything evil to anything Job had or to anyone who belonged to Job apart from God granting him the permission to do so (Job 1:12)?

Strike One. You've got two more shot, Mr. Empty Suit.

Wrong again....which of course is an inevitable consequence of believing the Calvinist lie that God is inherently evil, and the source of all evil, that God creates evil, that God plans are evil.

The Biblically accurate account indicates that God is holding court, that is the setting, and it was Satan who dared to bring accusations against God.
Furthermore, it is Satan who was looking for trouble, not God. And it was Satan who promoted the scheme to test Job, not God.

[Job 1:6 KJV] COURTROOM SETTING, the heavenly host as spectators
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

[Job 1:7 KJV] SATAN SEEKING TO DO HARM
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

[Job 1:8 KJV] GOD MAKES HIS DEFENSE
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

[Job 1:9 KJV] SATAN'S ACCUSATION before the court
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

[Job 1:10 KJV] SATAN'S ACCUSATION before the court
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

[Job 1:11 KJV] SATAN ***fails*** to force God's hand to do evil
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

[Job 1:12 KJV] God refuses, and it is SATAN who is the one to do the evil things
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

JOB PASSES THE TEST, GOD IS GLORIFIED, SATAN FAILS.

[Job 1:20 KJV]
Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

[Job 1:21 KJV]
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

[Job 1:22 KJV]
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

**************************************************************************

And BTW, every living entity in this episode demonstrates FREE WILL. God, Satan, Job, Jobs wife and friends.

 

[Kroogz]

Tell me how it is that millions of people throughout history never even heard of Jesus, but all treated with equal opportunity.

Who is telling you that millions of people throughout history have not heard of The Lord Jesus Christ?

You completely neglect the witness of His Spirit. Thank God for His witness, the calvies don't help Him much.

 

[Rufus]

he elects the chosen, whom would be adopted unto salvation. Which you or I have no idea until we workout are own salvation.

But How he elects them is by for-knowing them, looking at there whole life first spent with him.

Untill there saved they will by nature also sin. So the question is has God willed them to sin.

They hand themselves to more sin until there saved by nature of there own will, which never was his will.

God [fore]KNOWING people has nothing to do with his foreknowledge or prescience. God simply eternally KNOWS (before time began) in a personal, intimate, filial, covenantal way his chosen people. Jesus brings this idea out in his Good Shepherd Discourse when he waxed personal by saying that he knows everyone of his sheep by name, etc.

 

[cv5]

You completely neglect the witness of His Spirit. Thank God for His witness, the calvies don't help Him much.

Help? How about deny, resist, defy, and war against God, the truth about His Salvation FREELY GIVEN, and "bury the talent", the greatest of all sins possible in this life?