Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

I have been answering you and @GENESES approach to deny the flesh is also the soul.

Even you've just admitted as much

As John 1 states the will of man lives in the flesh.

Gods word declares also declares. He will give you a new heart of flesh, which will have his will living in it. To stop your will doing what it wants

But Go ahead sawdust show his word more ignorance and me whilst your at it.

By the way your friend @Genez is possessed

Can you pass that by us again, this time in English. Your sentences don't make sense.

John 1 is not talking about decision making which is what volition is used for but speaking of how one becomes a child of God. It is a complete other topic which is what I said before. You are taking one verse with one context and trying to apply it to a completely different context. Scripture does not work that way.

The word translated "flesh" has different meanings. In John 1:13 it is referring to the system of sinful thinking or wordly thinking that dominates man apart from God. It is not referring to your physical body. Rom.7:23 is referring to your physical body.

Learn correct context before you argue against what people say.

If you want to understand John 1:12-13 properly it means the way to become a child of God was not based on bloodlines, or what man desired or what man decided but solely upon the the will of God.

Jn.1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This verse has nothing to do with where the sin nature is or how it works. That was the topic by the way.

 

[sawdust]

The verse clearly teaches that the heart is directing the mouth. This is not possible if the flesh is overriding the soul. It would always be the flesh directing the soul.

You completely ignore how the treasure (whatever the treasure is) got there in the first place.

You keep looking at the end result and saying it is first cause. Turn around and see what you are missing.

 

[Jordon]

Can you pass that by us again, this time in English. Your sentences don't make sense.

John 1 is not talking about decision making which is what volition is used for but speaking of how one becomes a child of God. It is a complete other topic which is what I said before. You are taking one verse with one context and trying to apply it to a completely different context. Scripture does not work that way.

The word translated "flesh" has different meanings. In John 1:13 it is referring to the system of sinful thinking or wordly thinking that dominates man apart from God. It is not referring to your physical body. Rom.7:23 is referring to your physical body.

Learn correct context before you argue against what people say.

If you want to understand John 1:12-13 properly it means the way to become a child of God was not based on bloodlines, or what man desired or what man decided but solely upon the the will of God.

Jn.1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This verse has nothing to do with where the sin nature is or how it works. That was the topic by the way.

It only has nothing to do with what your saying because you want it to.

John one clearly states the will of man live in the flesh and clearly states the the will of the flesh is also the ancestry of man.

You stated the will of man does not live in the flesh.

Which is implying like your bully of a friend genez that it's the flesh that sins not the soul.

Youve then rejected also that the soul is just as much responsible for sin as the flesh is.

Because you also said the soul suffering in hell as nothing to do with what your saying as well.

Well how can the soul not have the same will as the flesh, ? if it's in hell by choosing to sin.

So either your right and the whole bible is wrong, which one is it ?

Or How can the soul not have suffered a fall if it wasn't accountable for a sin nature.

Why is Jesus the saviour of our souls.

All you doing is ignoring what is being said and then finding way to ignore what's being said.

 

[Cameron143]

You completely ignore how the treasure (whatever the treasure is) got there in the first place.

You keep looking at the end result and saying it is first cause. Turn around and see what you are missing.

It got there at the onset of sin. Adam felt fear and hid. The fear was matter of the soul which directed his flesh to hide.

 

[sawdust]

It only has nothing to do with what your saying because you want it to.

No Jordon, the scriptures are saying what they are saying. If you can't differentiate between talking about man's desires (a function of the soul Jn.1:13 ) and something at work in the body (the sin nature Rom.7:23 ), that's on you, not me.

Have a nice day.

I am putting you back on ignore as I don't need your belligerent attitude.

 

[Rufus]

What's your denomination?

Most likely the Unholy Seed of the Serpent.

 

[sawdust]

It got there at the onset of sin. Adam felt fear and hid. The fear was matter of the soul which directed his flesh to hide.

The sin came before the fear Cameron. It is the work of the sin nature that sets up the deception to which our minds respond filling our thoughts with lies upon which we then act in accordance with our erroneous thinking. It's a cyclic nature which is why you think it is the soul directing the flesh but that is not where it starts, it starts in the flesh.

The sin nature is like the proverbial serpent in the garden except it's not on the outside but on the inside, in our bodies, using their needs to lie to our minds about how we should think.

Without grace and truth we are locked into that never ending battle that our soul seeks to escape.

Rom.7:24
O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Body of death Cameron, not soul of death.

 

[Rufus]

And I've said that too. Grace must enable a man by suppressing the sin nature in the flesh so a man can respond as he desires not as th sin nature forces him to.



Yes but God draws on what is already in the heart in order to open it. It is not a blank slate (at least not at the point Lydia was). This is why the scripture says God draws us to Christ. We are not soda cans where one pop of the lid and all the content is there.



I know. That is why God always initiates with grace and truth.



If a man is bound to the sin nature and that nature is anti-God? How can he respond of his own free will? The will is bound and has to be unbound from what is binding it. Why do you think the Calvinists/Reformed hold to regeneration prior to belief? They see that as the "unbinding" instead of the salvation it is. God is light and presents us with grace and truth that is how He enlightens and opens our hearts. We are not some mindless automaton. God designed us with response ability so we can take responsibility for our thoughts, words and deeds.



I know faith doesn't originate with human effort that is why I said the power to create faith is in the word. My believing will get me no-where unless God acts. Thankfully for us God keeps His word, always. Of course, if what you believe is not the truth? You can kiss faith goodbye.

You can only ever have as much faith as you have truth.

Now, you're catching on...maybe. The disease that the bible calls sin is fatal, effecting the entire person and the cure is not found in man. The only final cure will be found in the Resurrection on the Last Day. And I believe the resurrection from the dead should be categorized as a miracle.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

well at least we agree in something then m

Just looking back at our discussion, was Jesus in the garden then , ?

the Lord Jesus Christ is the whole Subject of Scripture ... from Genesis to Revelation ... yes, the Lord Jesus Christ was in the garden ...

.

 

[Genez]

I am not speaking against God or His prophets. I am just making the point that God does direct the steps of man. And, when a person wishes to do something [according to his so called freewill] God can and may prevent it. Therefore, our freewill and desires are also being controlled to carry out God's plan.
That means that our freewill is not as free as we may think.

I still think that the two camps have two different concepts of what free will is.
That one has their own concept that they say man can not have.
And, it is not the same concept those who say man has been granted the freedom to use his volition for situations in his life.

Some would have me to believe?
That to have free will?
According to their concept?
One would need to have the powers of God with complete sovereignty, in order to have free will.

 

[Genez]

Ah, no, this is not true, these types believe anything except what the bible actually says.

And, how would you judge such people who do that?

 

[Jordon]

the Lord Jesus Christ is the whole Subject of Scripture ... from Genesis to Revelation ... yes, the Lord Jesus Christ was in the garden ...

.

Second agreement where on a roll

So Jesus was in the Garden was he watching to see if they would accept life

 

[Genez]

RF

Can you please answer my questions?

When you can tell us correctly when the return of Christ is, and that the Rapture is to be a real event.

You are in no position to demand such answers.

 

[Jordon]

No Jordon, the scriptures are saying what they are saying. If you can't differentiate between talking about man's desires (a function of the soul Jn.1:13 ) and something at work in the body (the sin nature Rom.7:23 ), that's on you, not me.

Have a nice day.

I am putting you back on ignore as I don't need your belligerent attitude.

again you never quoted on the full post.

 

[Rufus]

Genez said:


The new eternal order will not have anything "restored."

You do shamelessly parade your gross ignorance for all to see, don't you? Check out Act 3:21 and the Gr. term "apokatastasis" (Strong's 605) someday that is translated "restoring" or "restitution" in the text.

 

[Genez]

why would you want to say satan is being punished m

"Was" punished. Like a parent will punish a rebellious child whom needs correction.

 

[Rufus]

When you can tell us correctly when the return of Christ is, and that the Rapture is to be a real event.

You are in no position to demand such answers.

Ignorant, biblically-illiterate people have nothing of which to be proud or puffed up over, as though you are in a position of authority.

 

[Jordon]

No Jordon, the scriptures are saying what they are saying. If you can't differentiate between talking about man's desires (a function of the soul Jn.1:13 ) and something at work in the body (the sin nature Rom.7:23 ), that's on you, not me.

Have a nice day.

I am putting you back on ignore as I don't need your belligerent attitude.

Maybe you think I'm this word but having just spent more time studying your post

I fail to see how you can't marry John 1:13 and Romans 7:23 togeather

 

[Jordon]

"Was" punished. Like a parent will punish a rebellious child whom needs correction.

er no red hering he was Judged

 

[Cameron143]

The sin came before the fear Cameron. It is the work of the sin nature that sets up the deception to which our minds respond filling our thoughts with lies upon which we then act in accordance with our erroneous thinking. It's a cyclic nature which is why you think it is the soul directing the flesh but that is not where it starts, it starts in the flesh.

The sin nature is like the proverbial serpent in the garden except it's not on the outside but on the inside, in our bodies, using their needs to lie to our minds about how we should think.

Without grace and truth we are locked into that never ending battle that our soul seeks to escape.

Rom.7:24
O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Body of death Cameron, not soul of death.

If the soul wasn't corrupted by sin, the flesh would influence the soul. Because both body and soul were corrupted, the soul influenced the flesh.