Salvation: A doctrinal dilemma
- Thread starter DJT_47
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Ephesians 2:8 is not an empty doctrine if faith is genuine.
Believers start out as babes in Christ then grow to maturity in Christ. Philippians 1:9 - And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment. 1 Thessalonians 3:12 - And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you.
Faith is trusting reliance that results in obedience (fruit, not cause): “Faith works by love.” (Galatians 5:6). Faith is evidenced, completed by works, not constituted by them. Essence of faith: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)
Very true. The power of the Holy Spirit is evident in believers through a transformed life that exhibits the fruit of the Spirit. These qualities develop in the lives of believers through the power of the Holy Spirit.
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Believer08
Guest
@Beckworth, @DJT_47
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Same Apostle below
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Repent/Repent and be baptized/converted for the remission of sins/that your sins may be blotted out, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost/times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Begotten/born again...through the resurrection of Jesus (I Pet.1:3)
Same Apostle below
baptism now saves you...through the resurrection of Jesus (I Pet.3:21)
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (Jn. 3:3)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Jn. 3:5)
One does not enter into the kingdom/body of Christ before they repent and are baptized (Acts 2:38, 41, 47; Jn. 3:5; 1 Cor. 12:13). It is only after one obeys the gospel that they are then added to the body.
The word of God speaks for itself (Heb. 4:12), and honest seekers will see the truth of this subject (Lk. 8:15; Acts 17:11).
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Same Apostle below
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Repent/Repent and be baptized/converted for the remission of sins/that your sins may be blotted out, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost/times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Begotten/born again...through the resurrection of Jesus (I Pet.1:3)
Same Apostle below
baptism now saves you...through the resurrection of Jesus (I Pet.3:21)
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (Jn. 3:3)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Jn. 3:5)
One does not enter into the kingdom/body of Christ before they repent and are baptized (Acts 2:38, 41, 47; Jn. 3:5; 1 Cor. 12:13). It is only after one obeys the gospel that they are then added to the body.
The word of God speaks for itself (Heb. 4:12), and honest seekers will see the truth of this subject (Lk. 8:15; Acts 17:11).
The act of obedience is not choosing the gospel but rather obeying the gospel.
2thes 1:8-9
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
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Blue155
Guest
The ASV is good to show how belief and obedience are used interchangeably in John 3:36. Same for the ESV and NASB95. The book of Hebrews chapter 11 is good to show how faith/belief and obedience goes hand in glove, as does James 2.
Do you believe in the laws of the land? Does your believing them automatically mean you obey them? Do you believe in the speed limit? Does that mean when you go over the limit you're obeying it? Obedience fortifies ones belief. It proves your belief and isva demonstration of your belief, and in religious perspective, it means you show your belief and faith through your obedience. Abraham is a great example of proving his belief and faith by his obedience.
I think your Ai model got your facts incorrect because it makes it seem that you are trying to reframe John 3:36 to support the “faith = obedience” equation — which is a subtle Oneness or baptismal-regeneration move. It’s a linguistic argument meant to smuggle works into justification by redefining “believe” to mean “obey.”
John 3:36 is a key verse, but context and grammar matter.
The contrast isn’t between “believing and obeying” as identical ideas — it’s between the one who believes (present participle πιστεύων) and the one who refuses to believe (ἀπειθῶν, literally “disbelieves,” “is unpersuaded”).
The word apeitheō doesn’t mean “to obey works,” but “to refuse belief or compliance.” The issue is unbelief, not the absence of deeds.
Faith produces obedience as fruit (Romans 1:5 KJV; James 2), but faith itself is not defined by obedience — it’s defined unto obedience.
That distinction keeps salvation by grace through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV) intact while preserving obedience as the natural outcome of genuine belief.
Grace and peace.
Your post was textbook baptismal regeneration argument, built by stringing verses together (mostly Acts and 1 Peter) without distinguishing between symbol and substance, or between means and signs.
The Scriptures you quoted are powerful, but the meaning rests in how they connect.
Peter himself clarifies that baptism is not the physical act that saves — “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God” (1 Peter 3:21 KJV). The saving element is what baptism represents — “by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
Acts 2:38 must also be read in the full flow of Acts. Peter later says in Acts 10:43-47 KJV that “whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins,” and the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost before water baptism. That sequence shows faith is the instrument of salvation, and baptism follows as testimony.
Likewise, Jesus’ words in John 3:5 connect “water and Spirit” to the new birth — not to ritual water, but to the cleansing of the Word and Spirit’s renewal (Ephesians 5:26 KJV; Titus 3:5 KJV).
Basically:
- Faith precedes baptism (Acts 10:43-47 KJV).
- The Spirit regenerates, not the water (Titus 3:5 KJV).
- Baptism testifies to what faith has already accomplished.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.” — Ephesians 2:8 KJV
Grace and peace.
@CS1
@mailmandan
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Blue155
Guest
That’s right. He and both Rahab had a faith that led them both to obey.
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Blue155
Guest
That denotes that to obey is to believe..and to believe is to obey. For if you have not believed then you have not obeyed, and if you have not obeyed then you have not believed.
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Blue155
Guest
Belief is distinct from multiple acts of obedience, which follow belief, yet we still obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16)
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Blue155
Guest
It is easy to copy and paste one’s post into an AI, then copy and paste AI’s response as your own. Have you been using AI to get responses? Can you honestly say you have not?
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Blue155
Guest
When someone believes, they will obey. If one does not believe, they will not obey, and if someone does not obey, then they do not believe.
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Blue155
Guest
Plug this into your AI program. See what it gets you.
“Have I been using AI to get in an irresponsible way to get responses, formulate arguments, so I can simply respond or reply to posts, instead of using it responsibly? Have I been using AI in a manner that simply submits another’s post, then copies and pastes what AI has given me without even attempting to understand the others position, as well as even trying to understand AI’s response?”
You post was textbook baptismal regeneration argument which you really can't support biblically. Ai is all you have, because you lack the skills to actually defend that unsound position.
Grace and Peace