Salvation: A doctrinal dilemma

[PaulThomson]

Beckworth is a member of the church of Christ (which I once temporarily attended) so I'm very familiar with what that church and what she teaches. Folks in the church of Christ place repentance "after" faith and turn it into a work for salvation, along with confession and water baptism which is not salvation through faith but salvation through faith + works.

To travel from London to Berlin, a common route by car, train, or bus passes through Belgium and the Netherlands before entering Germany. Key landmarks and cities along this journey include Bruges, Brussels, Amsterdam, Cologne, and Hamburg.

If I took this route and said, "I went from Berlin from London through Bruges and Cologne," would you claim I am denying that I went to Berlin through Bruges, because I included Cologne as second intermediate destination on my route?

 

[mailmandan]

So you would say that faith without works is a dead faith.

Yes. If someone says/claims to have faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith. (James 2:14)

Faith without the fruit of the Holy Spirit is a dead faith also?

Yes. The fruit of the Spirit characterizes the lives of those who are born of God and have received the Holy Spirit. Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Faith without love is an impossible position to occupy as a Christian.

True. Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Perfect Love is what heaven is all about and describes Jesus in the fullest sense.

1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

If you are not primarily pursuing love in everything then don't ever call yourself a Christian?

That is generally true, although babes in Christ who need to mature may not always start out that way. (1 Corinthians 3:1-3) Christians are to pursue love, and faith works through love. (Galatians 5:6)

 

[mailmandan]

You may need to add the Orthodox, Reformers, Protestants also.

If you summarize the N.T you get; saved by grace through faith for the goal of love from a pure heart.

Without elevating love why would you call yourself a Christian?

Christ's atonement was strictly to conform you to Christ's image, which is love in human form.

Love is all that's left when Jesus returns and it's who God is, God is love.

Love is mentioned in the N.T hundreds of times.

We are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and we are to pursue love from a pure heart, which is the goal. (2 Timothy 2:22) In 1 Corinthians 13:13, we read that love is the greatest quality between faith, hope and love because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

 

[mailmandan]

You said, "Your hands are full of your works (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism) and you will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith."
The church of Christ receive Christ by faith. You are a false accuser. They do have that in common with many other self-identifying Christian sects.

How does one receive Christ through faith when one also trusts in works for salvation? (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) The church of Christ teaches salvation by faith + works (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism). Have you ever attended the church of Christ to understand exactly what they teach? I have been there, done that so I am not a false accuser. I know exactly what they teach. Salvation by faith + works for salvation is not faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

You also did not answer my question.

i.e. Do you not agree that the phrase (saved by grace through faith without works could mean that God does not choose who is worthy to be saved by grace through faith on the basis of their past history of works, i.e. He does not choose to call and justify only those with fewer major transgressions in their past?

Strange question and I would say no. Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; 9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] (AMPC)

 

[rogerg]

Paul mentions the word "law" from 52 to 70 times in Romans depending on the translation.

If Paul is talking about what you wrote below.

Only the elect were always the chosen of God unto salvation and were chosen so from before the foundation of the world

Why does Paul mention the law 52 to 70 times in that same letter?

Why does Paul refer to the Gentiles being "grafted" into the root and Israel being "severed"?

Romans is discussing why Israel failed do you get that or not?

Here you go Mr. Romans, just a few quick verses out of Romans so you can gain a flavor of what Paul was actually preaching regarding law. To make it easy for you, it is that NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED IN GOD'S EYES BY THE LAW, but only by the faith of Christ: Christ's faith - Christ is the Savior.

[Rom 3:20-21, 27 KJV]
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; ...
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[Rom 4:13-16 KJV]
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Even more importantly, Paul also tells us the following -again taken from Romans - these being the laws that I posted previously to you but which you didn't/couldn't recognize. They describe the eternal, spiritual laws of God, not earthly laws, the laws that control eternal destiny. They also testify that the faith in view (above) is Christ's faith, not the faith of men, because it was by Christ alone -not by Christ and man - that His offering condemned sin. By that condemnation, we know beyond doubt, the faith also was His - His faith satisfying the "law of faith". Further, the "promise" would otherwise not be "sure to all the seed" were it dependent in any way upon man's faith or actions; but only by Christ's faith was it made "sure". Should it have had to be made "sure" by us, then that requirement would become a law, a law to be satisfied by us, but as we are so informed, no one can be saved by their works of law but only by Christ.

[Rom 8:2-3 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

[mailmandan]

Are the Church of Christ into the law?

No, but Seventh Day Adventists are. The church of Christ is heavily into water baptism. They basically teach a 5-step plan to salvation. 1. Hear the word 2. Believe 3. Repent 4. Confess 5. Be baptized and one is not saved until all 5 steps are completed in that order, so that is not salvation through faith but salvation through faith + additional steps (works) after faith. They have turned repent, confess, be baptized into works for salvation "after" one believes/places faith in Jesus Christ. Repentance actually "precedes" believe/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" salvation through believes in Him/faith. (Acts 10:43-47)

 

[mailmandan]

To travel from London to Berlin, a common route by car, train, or bus passes through Belgium and the Netherlands before entering Germany. Key landmarks and cities along this journey include Bruges, Brussels, Amsterdam, Cologne, and Hamburg.

If I took this route and said, "I went from Berlin from London through Bruges and Cologne," would you claim I am denying that I went to Berlin through Bruges, because I included Cologne as second intermediate destination on my route?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[PaulThomson]

To travel from London to Berlin, a common route by car, train, or bus passes through Belgium and the Netherlands before entering Germany. Key landmarks and cities along this journey include Bruges, Brussels, Amsterdam, Cologne, and Hamburg.

If I took this route and said, "I went from Berlin from London through Bruges and Cologne," would you claim I am denying that I went to Berlin through Bruges, because I included Cologne as second intermediat

I have no idea what you are talking about.

It 's a simple question, with a yes or no answer.

 

[Inquisitor]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Add me to those that do not understand the question.

 

[Inquisitor]

No, but Seventh Day Adventists are. The church of Christ is heavily into water baptism. They basically teach a 5-step plan to salvation. 1. Hear the word 2. Believe 3. Repent 4. Confess 5. Be baptized and one is not saved until all 5 steps are completed in that order, so that is not salvation through faith but salvation through faith + additional steps (works) after faith. They have turned repent, confess, be baptized into works for salvation "after" one believes/places faith in Jesus Christ. Repentance actually "precedes" believe/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" salvation through believes in Him/faith. (Acts 10:43-47)

Contrary to what you stated in your reply.

The Church of Christ is familiar with and teaches the Ten Commandments.

As far as I am aware the ten commandments were given to covenant Israel at Mt Sinai.

I will ask you again mailmandan, are the Church of Jesus Christ under the law?

Is the law "binding" on Gentiles?

 

[mailmandan]

Contrary to what you stated in your reply.

The Church of Christ is familiar with and teaches the Ten Commandments.

As far as I am aware the ten commandments were given to covenant Israel at Mt Sinai.

I will ask you again mailmandan, are the Church of Jesus Christ under the law?

Is the law "binding" on Gentiles?

The church of Christ is distinct from the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, if that's what you meant by "church of Jesus Christ." The church of Christ does not teach that we are under the law of Moses.

https://www.mvchurchofchrist.org/blog/2015/09/10/the-nine-commandments

 

[Inquisitor]

The church of Christ is distinct from the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, if that's what you meant by "church of Jesus Christ." The church of Christ does not teach that we are under the law of Moses.

https://www.mvchurchofchrist.org/blog/2015/09/10/the-nine-commandments

I asked AI to have a crack at this question; are Christian Gentiles bound by the law?

Here is the questions I asked AI.

Using the scripture only.
Please explain in depth whether Gentile Christians are bound by the law, the ten commandments (Exodus 20)?
Have Gentiles ever been under the law (Exodus 20)?
What is the correct teaching on this relationship with the law and grace by Paul?
I thought that love fulfills the law and is the primary commandment we follow not the law?

ChatGPT said:

Thought for 14s (Please note; the time it took AI which is a considerable time for AI.
One extremely difficult question to answer. Why because every traditional church through history
has bound their church to the ten commandments (the law).

Back to AI.

Short answer up front
Using Scripture only: the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) were given to Israel at Sinai as part of the Mosaic covenant (Ex. 19–20). Gentiles were not originally under that covenant as its legal obligation (Ex. 20:1–2; Rom. 2:14–15). Paul teaches that the Mosaic law cannot justify (Rom. 3:20; Gal. 2:16), that it functioned as a guardian/tutor until Christ (Gal. 3:23–25), and that Christians are now to live by the Spirit and by love—which “fulfills” the law (Rom. 8:2–4; Gal. 5:16–25; Rom. 13:8–10). The Jerusalem council shows the New Testament practice: Gentile believers were not required to become Jews or keep the Mosaic yoke (Acts 15:19–21, 28–29).
Below I lay out the scriptural evidence and a careful explanation.
1) To whom were the Ten Commandments given?
Exodus 20 is explicitly rooted in God’s saving acts for Israel and addressed to that people. The preface connects the law to Israel’s deliverance: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery” (Exod. 20:2). The giving of the law occurs on Sinai to Israel as a covenant people (Exod. 19; see especially Exod. 19:3–6).
Conclusion from Scripture: Exodus 20 is part of the Mosaic covenant given to Israel.
2) Were Gentiles ever under that law?
Scripture distinguishes between those who have the written Mosaic law and those who do not:

• Paul: “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves…they show the work of the law written on their hearts” (Rom. 2:14–15).
• The law was given to Israel at Sinai; Gentiles did not receive that written covenant originally (Exod. 19–20; Rom. 3:1–2).

Practical point from Acts: At the Jerusalem Council the apostles and elders decided Gentile converts need not be circumcised or keep the full Mosaic yoke; instead the church asked them to observe a few prohibitions (Acts 15:19–21; 28–29).
Conclusion from Scripture: Gentiles historically were not under the Mosaic covenant as its legal obligation. They are morally accountable (Rom. 2), but not covenantally bound to Sinai’s law in the same way Israel was.
3) What did Paul teach about the law and Christians (especially Gentile Christians)?
a) The law’s role: to reveal sin but not to justify

• “Through the law comes knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20; Rom. 7:7–13). The law exposes sin (e.g., Paul’s use of the commandment to show transgression).
• The law cannot justify (Rom. 3:20; Gal. 2:16: “a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ”).

b) The law as guardian/tutor until Christ

• “Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law… So the law was our guardian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith.” (Gal. 3:23–24; see also Gal. 3:19 for the giving of the law’s purpose and time).
  After Christ, believers are no longer under that guardian (Gal. 3:25).

c) Christians are not to be “under the law” as a way of life for righteousness

• “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” (Rom. 6:14).
• “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” (Gal. 5:18).

Paul fights strongly against imposing circumcision and Mosaic observance as conditions for salvation or standing with God (Galatians entire; e.g., Gal. 5:2–4; Acts 15; Romans 3:28).
d) The Spirit and the new principle of life

• “For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.” (Rom. 8:2).
• The Christian life is to be lived by the Spirit’s power: “Walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.” (Gal. 5:16).

e) The law’s demands fulfilled in Christ and in love

• Christ: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law… I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” (Matt. 5:17).
• Paul: the obedient life flows from love: “For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” (Gal. 5:14; cf. Rom. 13:8–10).
• Jesus summarizes the law as love for God and neighbor (Matt. 22:37–40).

f) New covenant reality

• The writer to the Hebrews: God promises a new covenant in which his law will be put into hearts and minds (Heb. 8:8–13; Jer. 31:31–34 quoted). This signals a covenantal change—obedience now flows from a transformed heart.

4) How do we reconcile “love fulfills the law” with commandments such as Exodus 20?
Scripture gives the pattern:

1. The purpose of the Mosaic commandments included moral instruction (murder, theft, etc.), ceremonial and civil laws tied to Israel’s covenant life. Exodus 20 contains moral commands that reflect God’s character.
2. Love is the heart-sum of God’s law. Jesus places love of God and neighbor as the great commands (Matt. 22:37–40). Paul says “love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law” (Rom. 13:10). Thus the moral content of Exodus 20 is embodied in the ethic of love.
3. The New Covenant writes God’s law on hearts (Heb. 8:10; Jer. 31:33). Under the new covenant obedience is produced by the Spirit and love rather than a legalistic reliance on an external covenant to secure righteousness.
4. Christians obey Christ’s commandments (John 14:15: “If you love me, you will keep my commandments”; John 13:34: “A new commandment I give you, that you love one another”). So obedience is relational (love for Christ and others), not merely ritual compliance to Sinai’s code as a means of justification.

5) Practical summary from Paul’s teaching in Scripture

• Justification: Not by the works of the Mosaic law but by faith in Christ (Rom. 3:20–28; Gal. 2:16).
• Role of law: Reveals sin and our need for Christ (Rom. 3:20; Rom. 7:7–13). It functioned as a tutor until Christ (Gal. 3:23–25).
• For Gentile believers: They are not required to submit to Israel’s covenantal rites (Acts 15; Gal. 5; Romans). They are to live in the freedom of grace, guided by the Spirit (Gal. 5:1, 13–18).
• Moral obligation: Love governs the believer’s life and “fulfills” the moral law (Matt. 22:37–40; Rom. 13:8–10; Gal. 5:14). The commandments’ moral truths remain reflected in the life of the Spirit-led church, but the Mosaic covenantal system is not the believer’s rule for justification or for being counted righteous.

6) A few key passages to read together (Scripture-only list)

• Exodus 19–20 (giving of the law at Sinai)
• Romans 2:12–16; 3:19–28; 6:14; 7:7–13; 8:1–4
• Galatians 2; Galatians 3:19–29; Galatians 5:1–18
• Acts 15:1–29 (Jerusalem Council)
• Matthew 5:17–20; Matthew 22:34–40
• John 13:34–35; John 14:15
• Hebrews 8:7–13 (new covenant promise)
• Romans 13:8–10 (love fulfills the law)

Final brief answer
Scripture shows the Ten Commandments were given as part of the Mosaic covenant to Israel. Gentiles were not originally covenantally bound to Sinai’s law (Rom. 2:14–15; Acts 15). Paul teaches that the law’s place was to reveal sin and to be a guardian until Christ came (Rom. 3; Gal. 3), but believers—Jew and Gentile—are now to live by the Spirit, in grace and love, and not under the Mosaic law as the means of righteousness. Love (loving God and neighbor) is presented in Scripture as the summation and fulfilling principle of the law (Matt. 22:37–40; Rom. 13:8–10; Gal. 5:14).

 

[PaulThomson]

Strange question and I would say no. Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; 9 Not because of works [not the fulfilment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] (AMPC)

So, why does that conflict with the proposition that the verse could mean that we are chosen and saved irrespective of our previous history of works, so that by turning to God through Jesus Christ, even the worst of sinners is eligible for salvation by grace through faith? Paul expanded on this argument when He claimed he could boast about his racial and religious history as a reason God chose him, but those facts had nothing to do with his being chosen and called by grace through faith. Ph'p 3:3-7 Why can it not be referring only to being save "without past works"? Paul says For (gar) by/in grace (chariti) you are (este) having been saved ones (sesOsmenoi) through faith (dia pisteOs) and (kai) that (that by/in grace you are having been saved ones through faith) (touto) is not (ouk) out (ex) of you (humOn). The divine gift [of becoming saved by grace through faith] (to dOron theou) is not (ouk) out (ex) of works (ergOn), so that (hina) no one (me tis) might start to boast (kaukEsEtai aorist subjunctive).

Or could Eph 2:8 not be saying that one can be not saved by doing, without faith, works not commanded to you by God, such as many elements of the obsolete Mosaic Law under the New Covenant?

Or could Eph. 2:8 not be saying that that initial justification happens through putting faith in Jesus without doing any work synchronous with that initial faith, but subsequently works of obedience inspired by faith and empowered by the Holy Spirit could be required subsequently to keep the relationship gained in justification healthy. Obeying while relying upon the Holy Spirit's empowering does not entitle one to boast of ones works because they are works prepared by God for us to do and we were empowered by God to do them. All glory is to Him.

You haven't explained why those interpretation of the words of Eph. 2:8 are impossible.

 

[Inquisitor]

Here you go Mr. Romans, just a few quick verses out of Romans so you can gain a flavor of what Paul was actually preaching regarding law. To make it easy for you, it is that NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED IN GOD'S EYES BY THE LAW, but only by the faith of Christ: Christ's faith - Christ is the Savior.

[Rom 3:20-21, 27 KJV]
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; ...
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[Rom 4:13-16 KJV]
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Even more importantly, Paul also tells us the following -again taken from Romans - these being the laws that I posted previously to you but which you didn't/couldn't recognize. They describe the eternal, spiritual laws of God, not earthly laws, the laws that control eternal destiny. They also testify that the faith in view (above) is Christ's faith, not the faith of men, because it was by Christ alone -not by Christ and man - that His offering condemned sin. By that condemnation, we know beyond doubt, the faith also was His - His faith satisfying the "law of faith". Further, the "promise" would otherwise not be "sure to all the seed" were it dependent in any way upon man's faith or actions; but only by Christ's faith was it made "sure". Should it have had to be made "sure" by us, then that requirement would become a law, a law to be satisfied by us, but as we are so informed, no one can be saved by their works of law but only by Christ.

[Rom 8:2-3 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I need some more information from you.

Do you hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith?

Are the ten commandments binding on you?

You may be reading these quotations [Rom 3:20-21, 27 KJV] and [Rom 8:2-3 KJV] another way.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Salvation: A doctrinal dilemma

Salvation: how is one saved according to scripture? See below. Do you just pick and choose one of the below scriptures (KJV) you like the best, accept and adopt it as your personal doctrine, and ignore the rest? Aren't they all right? Can or does scripture conflict with scripture, or can one scripture have preeminence over another? Or, are all somehow correct, and if so, how is that possible?

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 16:31

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9-10

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 3:19

19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Romans 8:24

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Ephesians 2:8

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Salvation: A doctrinal dilemma

Salvation: how is one saved according to scripture? See below. Do you just pick and choose one of the below scriptures (KJV) you like the best, accept and adopt it as your personal doctrine, and ignore the rest? Aren't they all right? Can or does scripture conflict with scripture, or can one scripture have preeminence over another? Or, are all somehow correct, and if so, how is that possible?

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 16:31

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9-10

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 3:19

19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Romans 8:24

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Ephesians 2:8

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I like the point you make at least to me …. it’s all one doctrine from God working together for salvation . we err because we take a couple sentences and try to make that everything , leaving no room for the rest .

John 3:16 is true ….. but it’s only a sentance speaking about a certain point.

It isn’t addressing this for instance

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or this

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s all one message and there are many si Jeff’s and points that all work together to bring mankind’s salvation . The key is to trust in Jesus and listen to what he said in the gospel about it all . And believe those things

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭

 

[rogerg]

I need some more information from you.

Do you hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith?

Are the ten commandments binding on you?

You may be reading these quotations [Rom 3:20-21, 27 KJV] and [Rom 8:2-3 KJV] another way.

The only thing I "hold to" is the Bible, nothing outside of it.
Those placed in Christ by God are not under law but under grace.

 

[PaulThomson]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

You've never traveled from one city to another and passed through other towns to get there? What's hard to understand about my question?

If I come into Berlin out of London by car through Bruges, it is a true statement that I came into Berlin out of London through Bruges.
If I also passed through Cologne on my way into Berlin out of London, it is also true that I came into Berlin out of London through Bruges. Adding an intermediary step does not mean I must somehow be denying that I came into Berlin through Bruges.

So, I came into the Kingdom of God by grace through faith and baptism, is not a denial that I came into the kingdom of God by grace through faith. Your accusation against Beckworth makes no logical sense.

 

[Inquisitor]

The only thing I "hold to" is the Bible, nothing outside of it.
Those placed in Christ by God are not under law but under grace.

I would have thought you subscribe to the Institutes of the Christian Religion?

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes. If someone says/claims to have faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith. (James 2:14)

So just uttering Ephesians 2:8 would be in reality an empty doctrine.

Without the resultant emulation of the life of Jesus and love to it's fullest.

That is why Paul declares the doctrine in the context of works, fruit, and love.

The verse, the doctrine, is never separate from what the whole letter is saying.

What possible use is the Holy Spirit without the power of the Holy Spirit evident in your life?