Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

Having a hard time I see.
What does same nature even mean.
It means nothing til you define it.

Anyway put forth the scripture and exegete on this " created to not be able to respond positively to the Gospel unless regenerated first" you keep referencing.

Easy peasy. Answer the rhetorical question in Jer 13:23a. Is it in the Ethiopian's nature to change the color of his skin? Or in the leopard's nature to change its spots?

 

[Jackson129]

Logically speaking, neither Satan or Adam were perfect because whatever is perfect cannot change; for any change whatsoever would have to be for the better or worse, proving that the entity was never perfect to begin with.

It becomes "self-generated" for us when we receive our supernaturally-created resurrected bodies, and this actually lends some credence also to Genez's theory (with which I concur but am not dogmatic) that the sin nature was passed on to the human race by Adam's and all his male progeny's sperm. What the creation is eagerly waiting is the final phase of the saints' salvation, i.e. redemption of our bodies which, of course, occurs at the resurrection (Rom 8:18-25).

I do think it was passed on by man as well. Even though both sinned eve was tricked Adam just flat out disobeyed and listened to his wife.

 

[Rufus]

God's grace empowers man by suppressing the flesh's dominance over his soul.
God even does that for you now after you are saved when you choose to walk in the Spirit by using 1 John 1:9 when needed.

In the drawing to Salvation?
God sovereignly shuts down the dominance of the flesh over the soul.
In doing so, God allows the soul to think over what ever it is that God is presenting to that soul to consider.
That soul remains free to reject God, just as Satan and his angels rejected God from an unfallen state.

When that happens by grace?
What is the soul left with when it comes to making any choice?
Its own choice.

That is why there be no excuses for anyone God draws and chose to reject God.

If God did not sovereignly apply his grace power over the flesh?
No one would believe.
For no one under the control of their flesh can believe God.

No believer who willfully rebels and chooses to continuously walk in his flesh and its desires?
God will not allow him to keep sinning.
He can not continue to sin.
For it will result in the sin onto death.
God will stop the sinning by taking that believer home early.

​

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, ​

you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not ​

lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should ​

pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." ​

​

1 John 5:16-17​

But God's "shut down" work is highly ineffectual! Some savior is your god.

 

[Jackson129]

I also have not mainstream ideas about Adam eve and mankind.

 

[Magenta]

God’s will is always done, none can interfere with it, make any alterations to it, or stop it, nor does the will of God require anyone’s permission or acceptance before it can take place. This would suggest a will superior to God’s will. A will that can effectively interfere with God’s will, that can stop it, that can force the Almighty God to make contingency plans, to refer to ‘plan B’, etc. If God wills it, none can stop it. “And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to His will in the army of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest Thou?” (Dan. 4:35).
**MDB**

All FWers should learn to live with this truth

Men are like grass, says Scripture. Free willer:

I'm more than that! I know I am.
At least, I think I must be.
Therefore I believe I am.

 

[Rufus]

As suspected, I was actually counting on the fact that most here would not take the time to carefully examine the passages I provided. Let’s look at them closely so you can see how they plainly show that your belief is unbiblical.

Matthew 13:41–42 (KJV)

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;​

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Matthew 13:41–42 with Commentary

The Son of man shall send forth his angels [Jesus Himself is the one sending forth His angels, showing His authority in judgment], and they shall gather out of his kingdom [notice that it is His kingdom, not the world’s, which means these people are within the visible realm of His rule] all things that offend [Greek σκανδαλίζω (skandalizō), meaning to cause to sin or fall away], and them which do iniquity [Greek ἀνομία (anomia), meaning lawlessness or the ongoing practice of sin];​

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire [a clear reference to final judgment in the Lake of Fire]: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth [a repeated biblical expression of eternal torment and regret].​

Involving the phrase “His kingdom” (speaking contextually of Christ’s kingdom), the Greek word αὐτοῦ (“his”) is present twice in this passage, τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ (“his angels”) and ἐκ τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ (“out of his kingdom”). It is found in the original Beza 1598 Greek text, which underlies the King James Bible, and it also appears in the Nestle and Aland (NA-28) Greek text, even though I do not agree with that textual basis which underlies the Modern Bibles. The presence of αὐτοῦ in both readings confirms that the angels and the kingdom belong to Christ Himself, emphasizing His divine ownership and authority.

This passage is straightforward when read plainly. Jesus says that His angels will one day remove from His kingdom all who cause others to stumble and all who continue in sin. The key phrase is out of His kingdom. That means they were counted within His kingdom at one time. Jesus is not describing unbelievers who never entered His rule but rather those who were part of His kingdom community and later corrupted themselves through sin and rebellion.

The word offend (skandalizō) appears in Matthew 18:6–9, where Jesus warns that anyone who offends one of His little ones should be cast into the sea with a millstone. The same word is used here, connecting this passage to moral offense and spiritual downfall.

The phrase them which do iniquity emphasizes those who live in continual sin. The Greek anomia literally means “lawlessness,” or living contrary to God’s commands. It is used in 1 John 3:4, where sin is defined as transgression of the law.

Together, these two expressions cover both those who lead others into sin and those who live in it themselves. Both are gathered out of Christ’s kingdom, showing that no one who persists in sin will remain in His reign forever.

Now consider John 8:34–35 (KJV):

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.​

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.​

Here Jesus confirms the same principle. Those who live in sin become servants of it, and servants of sin do not remain in the house forever. The house here represents God’s household or kingdom. The connection to Matthew 13 is direct. Those who persist in sin are eventually removed, just as the angels remove the offenders from the kingdom.

This is referring to Christ’s kingdom, the same kingdom mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24–25, where it says that Jesus will one day deliver the kingdom back to God the Father after He has put down all rule and authority and power. Before that transfer takes place, no sinful believers can remain within His kingdom. All who do iniquity and all that offend must first be gathered out, as Matthew 13 declares, so that the kingdom He returns to the Father will be holy and undefiled. This is simply a fact of Scripture that every person will have to deal with, either in this life through repentance and obedience, or in the next life when Christ Himself enforces it.

Regarding your question about God “forcing” saints to be sinless in the eternal kingdom, this misunderstands glorification. In this life, we make a free will choice under God’s enablement and enlightenment to believe the gospel (Acts 16:14, John 12:32, John 16:8). Only after that choice does God begin the process of purifying us so that we may one day never sin again. That purification, however, is not a guaranteed condition for all who live on Earth during the Millennial Kingdom. Some will still choose rebellion even in that time, showing that free will continues to operate.

But do not worry. Man will not get the glory. No man can believe without God’s enablement or enlightenment, as seen when the Lord opened Lydia’s heart to respond to the gospel (Acts 16:14). Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” (John 12:32). The Holy Spirit also “will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8). These verses show that God is active in drawing and convicting every person, yet He does not force belief. Christ “will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4), and God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). It is in the loving heart of God that men are drawn and choose Him freely under the light of God.

True freedom from sin is not the destruction of choice but the result of a heart that chooses righteousness under the presence and power of God.

To summarize:

1. Matthew 13:41–42 teaches that Christ will purge His kingdom of those who sin and cause others to sin.
2. John 8:34–35 teaches that servants of sin will not remain in His household.
3. These verses show moral accountability and reject the idea that grace overrides obedience.
4. God’s glorification of the saints removes sin’s corruption, not human choice.

This is what the Scripture teaches, and it stands completely opposed to your interpretation.

In any event, if you do not see what I am talking about here, I believe it is because you simply do not want to see such a truth in the Bible. So we can agree to disagree.

May God's good ways shine upon you today.




....

Christ's invisible kingdom in this age is loaded with tares that the devil sowed within His Church. The Church, especially here in the West, is loaded with pew warmers, false believers, false prophets, false teachers, etc. -- all of which can be known by the Faithful by observing their fruit. Hell will be literally loaded with religious people. None of these apostates were ever God's elect. They are of the type who try to take the kingdom by force, i.e. on their own terms.

 

[cv5]

Does anyone perceive the slightest hint of coercion, arm-twisting, pre-programming or other nefarious intrusions into free will or volition regarding the fact of Zacchaeus RECEIVING of the Lord Jesus JOYFULLY in these passages? And the fact that his volitional initiative was that which was crucial to the proclamation by Christ Himself of his salvation?

@Jackson129 @HeIsHere @Kroogz @Genez.......anybody?
How about @Magenta @Rufus @Cameron143? Will they postulate that, due to mysterious gnostic principles known only to them, there is embedded in this poignant missive some kind of doomer gate-slamming contrariety or unattainability barrier whereby no-one can possibly be saved if they desire it (Him)?

The way I see things, we have a "Seeker" Who is the initiator, offering the gift, and a free will "responder"......who in his heart was ALSO seeking, and then receiving the gift.


[Luk 19:1 KJV]
And [Jesus] entered and passed through Jericho.

[Luk 19:2 KJV]
And, behold, [there was] a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.

[Luk 19:3 KJV]
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.

[Luk 19:4 KJV]
And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that [way].

[Luk 19:5 KJV]
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

[Luk 19:6 KJV]
And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

[Luk 19:7 KJV]
And when they saw [it], they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

[Luk 19:8 KJV]
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold.

[Luk 19:9 KJV]
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

[Luk 19:10 KJV]
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

[Rufus]

If it is not yours?
It's probably right then....

You lost all credibility with me when you denied the rapture and claimed Jesus has already returned to the earth.

How you believe that is your business.
But it's not the Holy Spirit's.

You just like to antagonize Christians.
Why is that?

You really do.

You don't read too swell! Cam never denied the rapture, but rather believes there will be two raptures. And he bases his belief, most likely, on the Mt. Olivet Discourse in Mat 24 and the first rapture occurring in 70 A.D. and the second one at the end of this age.

 

[Cameron143]

J

Does anyone perceive the slightest hint of coercion, arm-twisting, pre-programming or other nefarious intrusions into free will or volition regarding the fact of Zacchaeus RECEIVING of the Lord Jesus JOYFULLY in these passages? And the fact that his volitional initiative was that which was crucial to the proclamation by Christ Himself of his salvation?

@Jackson129 @HeIsHere @Kroogz @Genez.......anybody?
How about @Magenta @Rufus @Cameron143? Will they postulate that, due to mysterious gnostic principles known only to them, there is embedded in this poignant missive some kind of doomer gate-slamming contrariety or unattainability barrier whereby no-one can possibly be saved if they desire it (Him)?

The way I see things, we have a "Seeker" Who is the initiator, offering the gift, and a free will "responder"......who in his heart was ALSO seeking, and then receiving the gift.


[Luk 19:1 KJV]
And [Jesus] entered and passed through Jericho.

[Luk 19:2 KJV]
And, behold, [there was] a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.

[Luk 19:3 KJV]
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.

[Luk 19:4 KJV]
And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that [way].

[Luk 19:5 KJV]
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

[Luk 19:6 KJV]
And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

[Luk 19:7 KJV]
And when they saw [it], they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

[Luk 19:8 KJV]
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold.

[Luk 19:9 KJV]
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

[Luk 19:10 KJV]
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Do you believe God drew Zacchaeus to Christ?

 

[Rufus]

Does anyone perceive the slightest hint of coercion, arm-twisting, pre-programming or other nefarious intrusions into free will or volition regarding the fact of Zacchaeus RECEIVING of the Lord Jesus JOYFULLY in these passages? And the fact that his volitional initiative was that which was crucial to the proclamation by Christ Himself of his salvation?

@Jackson129 @HeIsHere @Kroogz @Genez.......anybody?
How about @Magenta @Rufus @Cameron143? Will they postulate that, due to mysterious gnostic principles known only to them, there is embedded in this poignant missive some kind of doomer gate-slamming contrariety or unattainability barrier whereby no-one can possibly be saved if they desire it (Him)?

The way I see things, we have a "Seeker" Who is the initiator, offering the gift, and a free will "responder"......who in his heart was ALSO seeking, and then receiving the gift.


[Luk 19:1 KJV]
And [Jesus] entered and passed through Jericho.

[Luk 19:2 KJV]
And, behold, [there was] a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.

[Luk 19:3 KJV]
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.

[Luk 19:4 KJV]
And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that [way].

[Luk 19:5 KJV]
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

[Luk 19:6 KJV]
And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

[Luk 19:7 KJV]
And when they saw [it], they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

[Luk 19:8 KJV]
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold.

[Luk 19:9 KJV]
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

[Luk 19:10 KJV]
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

As a "son of Abraham", Zacchaeus was one of God's elect. AND...it gets even better. Zacchaeus clearly expressed his repentance in v. 8, and repentance is the fruit of the sovereign grace of the Fear of the Lord, which turns human hearts away from evil! AND...since he was so joyous in meeting the Lord, this speaks to another divine grace -- the Circumcision of the Heart which empowers the elect to LOVE God. And Joy is the second fruit of the Holy Spirit that flows from the first fruit of Love.

 

[Rufus]

BillyBob said:


No apologies are necessary! I haven't been posting much lately. My wife has been doing poorly and I spend a lot of time helping her. But, please know that all who are like-minded posters lift my spirit each time I sign on.
Just knowing that God is in control of all things brings me comfort.

Very sorry to hear the news about your wife. I'll be lifting both of you up in my prayers. I can certainly relate to poor health, as my has been declining steadily and rapidly over the last couple of years. As Magenta basically said, "Growing old ain't for the faint-hearted." But God is faithful and has been with me every step of the way, as I'm sure He has with your beloved wife, as well.

 

[Jordon]

Does anyone perceive the slightest hint of coercion, arm-twisting, pre-programming or other nefarious intrusions into free will or volition regarding the fact of Zacchaeus RECEIVING of the Lord Jesus JOYFULLY in these passages? And the fact that his volitional initiative was that which was crucial to the proclamation by Christ Himself of his salvation?

@Jackson129 @HeIsHere @Kroogz @Genez.......anybody?
How about @Magenta @Rufus @Cameron143? Will they postulate that, due to mysterious gnostic principles known only to them, there is embedded in this poignant missive some kind of doomer gate-slamming contrariety or unattainability barrier whereby no-one can possibly be saved if they desire it (Him)?

The way I see things, we have a "Seeker" Who is the initiator, offering the gift, and a free will "responder"......who in his heart was ALSO seeking, and then receiving the gift.


[Luk 19:1 KJV]
And [Jesus] entered and passed through Jericho.

[Luk 19:2 KJV]
And, behold, [there was] a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.

[Luk 19:3 KJV]
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.

[Luk 19:4 KJV]
And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that [way].

[Luk 19:5 KJV]
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

[Luk 19:6 KJV]
And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

[Luk 19:7 KJV]
And when they saw [it], they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

[Luk 19:8 KJV]
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold.

[Luk 19:9 KJV]
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

[Luk 19:10 KJV]
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

he was in the process of being saved, and responding to the prick delivered to his conscience that the son of man was near

So he then drew near to the lord and he drew near to them


And this is what is meant by salvation coming to your house or anyone else's house.

And its the lord giving his salvation, not you gaining it because you decided to run to him. The action of running to him is only because A he knew where he was and B he was being guided.

Any unsaved person can not find Jesus, Jesus finds them.

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Not one person would have been able to find him if he hadn't of come

 

[Magenta]

he was in the process of being saved, and responding to the prick delivered to his conscience that the son of man was near
So he then drew near to the lord and he drew near to them
And this is what is meant by salvation coming to your house or anyone else's house.
And its the lord giving his salvation, not you gaining it because you decided to run to him.
The action of running to him is only because A he knew where he was and B he was being guided.
Any unsaved person can not find Jesus, Jesus finds them.
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
Not one person would have been able to find him if he hadn't of come

Luke 19 verses 9-10 ~ Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man too is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

 

[Jordon]

How about @Magenta @Rufus @Cameron143? Will they postulate that, due to mysterious gnostic principles known only to them, there is embedded in this poignant missive some kind of doomer gate-slamming contrariety or unattainability barrier whereby no-one can possibly be saved if they desire it (Him)?

the will of man lives in the flesh

Flesh has no value to God any more.

Everyone's desire are tested. by fire.

No one is free from that and quit calling people gnostic, you know fine well anyone can be gnostic.

Can you ever or will you ever put your labels away ?

 

[Magenta]

the will of man lives in the flesh

Flesh has no value to God any more.

Everyone's desire are tested. by fire.
No one is free from that and quit calling people gnostic, you know fine well anyone can be gnostic.
Can you ever or will you ever put your labels away ?

Isaiah 48 v 10 ~ I have tested you in the furnace of affliction

 

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 3 v 19-21a, 1 Corinthians 1 v 19 ~ The wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.” And again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” Therefore, stop boasting in men. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

 

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 1 v 30-31 ~ It is because of God that you are in Christ Jesus, Who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”

 

[Magenta]

The wicked man boasts in the cravings of his heart; he blesses the greedy and reviles the LORD. In his pride the wicked man does not seek Him; in all his schemes there is no God. Psalm 10 v 3-4 Mocker is the name of the proud and arrogant man - of him who acts with excessive pride. Proverbs 21 v 24 The proud look of man will be humbled, and the loftiness of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. For the Day of the LORD of Hosts will come against all the proud and lofty, against all that is exalted - it will be humbled. Isaiah 2 v 11-12 No flesh may boast before God. 1 Cor 1 v 29

 

[Rufus]

Luke 19 verses 9-10 ~ Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man too is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Apparently, Jesus wasn't a big fan of FWT; for if he had been, how could he not have praised Zacchaeus for seeking Him out!? Yet, look what the Lord said instead..."Salvation has come to this house...". God alone should get and is fully worthy of ALL the glory for saving His people.

 

[Whomsoever]

As suspected, I was actually counting on the fact that most here would not take the time to carefully examine the passages I provided. Let’s look at them closely so you can see how they plainly show that your belief is unbiblical.

Matthew 13:41–42 (KJV)

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;​

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Matthew 13:41–42 with Commentary

The Son of man shall send forth his angels [Jesus Himself is the one sending forth His angels, showing His authority in judgment], and they shall gather out of his kingdom [notice that it is His kingdom, not the world’s, which means these people are within the visible realm of His rule] all things that offend [Greek σκανδαλίζω (skandalizō), meaning to cause to sin or fall away], and them which do iniquity [Greek ἀνομία (anomia), meaning lawlessness or the ongoing practice of sin];​

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire [a clear reference to final judgment in the Lake of Fire]: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth [a repeated biblical expression of eternal torment and regret].​

Involving the phrase “His kingdom” (speaking contextually of Christ’s kingdom), the Greek word αὐτοῦ (“his”) is present twice in this passage, τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ (“his angels”) and ἐκ τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ (“out of his kingdom”). It is found in the original Beza 1598 Greek text, which underlies the King James Bible, and it also appears in the Nestle and Aland (NA-28) Greek text, even though I do not agree with that textual basis which underlies the Modern Bibles. The presence of αὐτοῦ in both readings confirms that the angels and the kingdom belong to Christ Himself, emphasizing His divine ownership and authority.

This passage is straightforward when read plainly. Jesus says that His angels will one day remove from His kingdom all who cause others to stumble and all who continue in sin. The key phrase is out of His kingdom. That means they were counted within His kingdom at one time. Jesus is not describing unbelievers who never entered His rule but rather those who were part of His kingdom community and later corrupted themselves through sin and rebellion.

The word offend (skandalizō) appears in Matthew 18:6–9, where Jesus warns that anyone who offends one of His little ones should be cast into the sea with a millstone. The same word is used here, connecting this passage to moral offense and spiritual downfall.

The phrase them which do iniquity emphasizes those who live in continual sin. The Greek anomia literally means “lawlessness,” or living contrary to God’s commands. It is used in 1 John 3:4, where sin is defined as transgression of the law.

Together, these two expressions cover both those who lead others into sin and those who live in it themselves. Both are gathered out of Christ’s kingdom, showing that no one who persists in sin will remain in His reign forever.

Now consider John 8:34–35 (KJV):

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.​

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.​

Here Jesus confirms the same principle. Those who live in sin become servants of it, and servants of sin do not remain in the house forever. The house here represents God’s household or kingdom. The connection to Matthew 13 is direct. Those who persist in sin are eventually removed, just as the angels remove the offenders from the kingdom.

This is referring to Christ’s kingdom, the same kingdom mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24–25, where it says that Jesus will one day deliver the kingdom back to God the Father after He has put down all rule and authority and power. Before that transfer takes place, no sinful believers can remain within His kingdom. All who do iniquity and all that offend must first be gathered out, as Matthew 13 declares, so that the kingdom He returns to the Father will be holy and undefiled. This is simply a fact of Scripture that every person will have to deal with, either in this life through repentance and obedience, or in the next life when Christ Himself enforces it.

Regarding your question about God “forcing” saints to be sinless in the eternal kingdom, this misunderstands glorification. In this life, we make a free will choice under God’s enablement and enlightenment to believe the gospel (Acts 16:14, John 12:32, John 16:8). Only after that choice does God begin the process of purifying us so that we may one day never sin again. That purification, however, is not a guaranteed condition for all who live on Earth during the Millennial Kingdom. Some will still choose rebellion even in that time, showing that free will continues to operate.

But do not worry. Man will not get the glory. No man can believe without God’s enablement or enlightenment, as seen when the Lord opened Lydia’s heart to respond to the gospel (Acts 16:14). Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” (John 12:32). The Holy Spirit also “will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8). These verses show that God is active in drawing and convicting every person, yet He does not force belief. Christ “will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4), and God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). It is in the loving heart of God that men are drawn and choose Him freely under the light of God.

True freedom from sin is not the destruction of choice but the result of a heart that chooses righteousness under the presence and power of God.

To summarize:

1. Matthew 13:41–42 teaches that Christ will purge His kingdom of those who sin and cause others to sin.
2. John 8:34–35 teaches that servants of sin will not remain in His household.
3. These verses show moral accountability and reject the idea that grace overrides obedience.
4. God’s glorification of the saints removes sin’s corruption, not human choice.

This is what the Scripture teaches, and it stands completely opposed to your interpretation.

In any event, if you do not see what I am talking about here, I believe it is because you simply do not want to see such a truth in the Bible. So we can agree to disagree.

May God's good ways shine upon you today.




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What happens at the 7th Trump, before He sends out His angels in Revelation 11?


The Seventh Trumpet
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


So, the 'kingdoms of the world' were NOT under Christs rule but under the rule of the beast, right? Doesn't that negate what you said above

"This passage is straightforward when read plainly. Jesus says that His angels will one day remove from His kingdom all who cause others to stumble and all who continue in sin. The key phrase is out of His kingdom. That means they were counted within His kingdom at one time. Jesus is not describing unbelievers who never entered His rule but rather those who were part of His kingdom community and later corrupted themselves through sin and rebellion.



Christ doesn't return it all to God until the GWTJ which is at the end of the Lords day, right? Not until after Satan is loosed at the end of the 1000 years.


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

During the Lords Day the raised up from the dead 'DEAD' will be able to work to get their names in the book of Life and so come to be one of the 'living' aka having eternal life rather than face the 2nd death. Their FINAL test will be when Satan is loosed. IF they don't follow after him and their names are found in the book of life then EVEN if sin once was the reason for their 1st death, it isn't the determining factor of the 2nd, NECESSARILY.

No one has been 'blotted out' yet and no one will until the GWTJ. And with some of the 'dead' being raised and working to get their names in the book of life during the Lords Day, how does that work with what you said above?