Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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I think that without the stringent control on the "doctrine" as an institution like the RCC this is bound to happen >>> various permutations.
But yes you have nailed it perfectly, degree of unbelief and succumbing to indoctrination.
Having a hard time I see.
What does same nature even mean.
It means nothing til you define it.
Anyway put forth the scripture and exegete on this " created to not be able to respond positively to the Gospel unless regenerated first" you keep referencing.
That is not what we are discussing... we are discussing human nature, the one you insist must be regenerated before one can believe.
No resurrected believer in the eternal, visible kingdom will ever be cast out! CASTING/DRIVING out is reserved for God's enemies, not his holy saints! (Adam is a great example of an enemy who was driven out from God's holy presence in the Garden, as is Satan who was cast down from heaven with the rest of the fallen angels when they sinned.) So...the question remains: How would God not be "forcing" his holy saints to not sin in His eternal, visible kingdom, since all vestiges of indwelling sin will be removed forever and ever?
AND...since God will change the nature of his resurrected saints in the New Eternal Order, what does that say to FWers' staunch belief in libertarian-style freewill? Why would God have to change human nature if libertarian-style freewill is so effective in making the right choices?
You are correct, my thoughts are not your thoughts! Much of this has to do with what we have chosen to believe.
I personally did not become reformed by being taught that it was true. Rather, I became reformed simply because it seems to support Scripture as opposed to other teachings.
However, if someone tells me that man must DO something [unassisted by God] to become saved, then I will certainly argue the point.
Scripture teaches that we are saved by Grace, and Grace requires no assistance from us, it is a gift. We come to believe simply because God works a change in us and draws us to Him by Grace. There is no other way!
[Psa 58:2-4 KJV]
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison [is] like the poison of a serpent: [they are] like the deaf adder [that] stoppeth her ear;
[Psa 51:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
[Eph 2:3 KJV]
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
First of all, I'm talking about the FUTURE new Eternal Order, so what does history have to do with anything?
Secondly, neither Satan or Adam were created "perfect". If they were, they would not have been able to sin! God is perfect and he cannot sin, nor can his essence change in any way, hence He's immutable! Adam was created "very good" in a state of innocence. Satan was "blameless" in his ways until wickedness was found in him. So, how did Satan and the rest of the fallen angels sin: PRIDE! Who or what tempted the fallen angels? Their sin was self-generated from within.
It's no wonder scripture teaches that God detests the proud of heart!
Really? So, in the new Eternal Order of the restored world, sin and death will still exist? Resurrected saints will possess the same ol' sin nature? I thought Christ conquered sin and death on behalf of God's elect, no?
[Jhn 8:41, 43-44, 47 KJV]
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God. ...
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. ...
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.
[Jhn 10:27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[1Co 2:7 KJV] 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
If man is born without sin, why was the virgin birth necessary?
Already explained to you a plethora of times from 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Romans 8:7. You choose to believe that the natural man can do things he cannot. Do me a favor, and answer the questions on one of the panels @Magenta puts up. Then we can talk.
This one? If the text is too difficult to read on panel it is written out below panel. You can highlight to see it though it is
small text, or quote the post and then toggle off the BB code code, and you will see the text written out in normal size...
What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?
Those verses in no way support regeneration before belief, cause ultimately it all boils down to this one erroneous doctrine.
Along with the fact those verses have already been exegeted in context.
God's grace empowers man by suppressing the flesh's dominance over his soul.
God even does that for you now after you are saved when you choose to walk in the Spirit by using 1 John 1:9 when needed.
In the drawing to Salvation?
God sovereignly shuts down the dominance of the flesh over the soul.
In doing so, God allows the soul to think over what ever it is that God is presenting to that soul to consider.
That soul remains free to reject God, just as Satan and his angels rejected God from an unfallen state.
When that happens by grace?
What is the soul left with when it comes to making any choice?
Its own choice.
That is why there be no excuses for anyone God draws and chose to reject God.
If God did not sovereignly apply his grace power over the flesh?
No one would believe.
For no one under the control of their flesh can believe God.
No believer who willfully rebels and chooses to continuously walk in his flesh and its desires?
God will not allow him to keep sinning.
He can not continue to sin.
For it will result in the sin onto death.
God will stop the sinning by taking that believer home early.
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death,
you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not
lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should
pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."
1 John 5:16-17
Unless you were saved in early childhood?
You were at one time such a natural man.
Spiritual things were at one time foolishness to you.
That was how I was until I became saved.