Loss of salvation???
- Thread starter gratefuloneson
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A embarrassment to Calvinists.
I guess your still painting the picture your a calvinist,
Then in your imagination you only see these imaginary calvinists in your head of having no respect, and that I'm am embarrassment to there no respect.
Yes sir your imagination is testimony to your rotten flesh
You should get checked out for OCD of your nature sir as it may be the death of you
The extreme Calvinists are free to believe that we're all like robots, telling God we love Him by a type of mechanical, forced means only if and when He allegedly empowers us to do so, but the portrait the Lord paints of Himself is that He wants genuine love offered freely upon the filling of His Holy Spirit within us after believing Paul's gospel in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. The deadness of spirit within us before turning calling upon Him through our faith turned to Him and to what He accomplished for us, that's genuine love, no matter how inferior it may be to the Perfect love of the Lord.
So, in the end, it's with the interpretations of extreme Calvinism that I disagree rather than with the scriptures. I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, no matter how others may interpret the scriptures leading up to that.
MM
So, in the end, it's with the interpretations of extreme Calvinism that I disagree rather than with the scriptures. I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, no matter how others may interpret the scriptures leading up to that.
MM
AHH so now where back to the extreme Calvinists again.
What's a none extreme Calvinist then ?
In plain English? Explain what you said, means.
Any Calvinist can feel free to explain if what you said is what they believe.
So how can limited atonement possibly not mean he never died for the sins of the world, when the wages of disobeying God equals death. Which means when sin enters Mans seed, it dies.
The "world" means the entire human race on earth.
Do you know what limited atonement means to TULIP?
That Jesus only paid for the sins of those who will believe.
That He did not pay for the sins of those who reject Him.
But, He died for the sins of the whole world!
Explain, what you think, please.
ding ding dong dong
What a pong
You explained what limited atonement meant several posts again in the two post I quoted you on.
Now your asking me to explain it.
If I was you I would check your ears to see if there's any light between them
An extreme Calvinist is a person who started in Calvinism.
Accepted all he was told.
Then, finally began learning the Bible for himself and discovered wrong things.
ding ding dong dong
What a pong
You explained what limited atonement meant several posts again in the two post I quoted you on.
Now your asking me to explain it.
If I was you I would check your ears to see if there's any light between them
I am asking you to explain what you wrote!
Which was...
So how can limited atonement possibly not mean he never died for the sins of the world, when the wages of disobeying God equals death. Which means when sin enters Mans seed, it dies.
Focus this time!
Explain what YOU said.
Make sense of it, please.
Ok well
Mr one and only kind sir John Calvin, known for his devotion to caring for people helping them in prayer and helping them in obedience to the lord.
Was also know to love people very much and have lots of empathy for people.
So much so that many other people have wrote good book about him.
Anyway k, so the moral of the story is, how could you possibly imagine that such a devoted person to God could possibly imagine that the wages for sin doesn't mean death ?
Once Saved Always Saved !
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
I hope these 3 scriptures will help you understand with regards to OSAS.
Absolutely.
Jesus spoke that to Israel in relation to the tribulation that was/is to come. That was not in reference to the dispensation of grace. The Kingdom saints had to, and will have to, endure unto the end. Notice the "shall be" in that verse. That's future tense for them. Their salvation was/will be future to their point of faith so long as they endure...meaning that they don't take the mark. Your eschatology may be different, even to the point of Amillennialism.
When Jesus spoke this to Israel, and Israel only, they were not yet filled with Holy Spirit. Keeping that in mind, we get a better vision into the timing of all the contexts within scripture leading to better insights.
With this addressing those who were and are under the Gospel of Grace, we see and understand his meaning when we observe the wording carefully. Many assume loss of salvation in this wording, which doesn't support such a warped injection into the text. Paul spoke of those who themselves departed from the faith, but nowhere in that context did he even hint at the idea of salvation being withdrawn from anyone, but many an Evangelical follows their false teaching pastor's lead by adopting eisegetical hermeneutics.
Some doctrines of devils are flying around these forums and even in this thread where they portray us as spiritual robots incapable of volitional decisions for faith or lack thereof, but that's another discussion entirely.
Those are good discussion points. The unfortunate reality, however, is in all the trash some read into scripture, observing not only what IS stated, but also what is NOT stated in relation to what most habitually inject into the text things that simply aren't there. For anyone to say that one can relinquish his salvation at will, that's nothing but just another rudiment of works-based salvation.
MM
The charge of "easy believism" is generally used by those who believe in works-based salvation to varying degrees, with some being more extreme in that direction than others.
Retention of salvation is entirely immersed into the muck and mire of works-based salvation, having given in to mankind's tendency toward pride. Because salvation by works appeals to man’s sinful nature, it forms the basis of almost every religion except for biblical Christianity. When asking such people about their salvation, they sometimes launch into their resume of what they DO after the point of salvation to retain it, as if our efforts could ever retain what is given ONLY on the basis of GRACE. Redefining GRACE into a contrived, warped and twisted definition gives them the confidence to speak of their efforts of retention through abstaining from as much of their former lives of sin as possible.
Dare they be asked where that line resides for an alleged loss of salvation, that is the point in the discussion where the fudge-factored grease for that slippery-slope they're on becomes apparent as they try to slide downward and away from the question knowing full well that they have no real answers that could ever possess a measure of unquestioning solidity. Some brave souls even point at verses where they ASSUME salvational loss to be the meaning regardless of the absence of such within the contexts. Forcing meaning into scripture is the fodder of Gnostic endeavors to try and force scripture into conformity to man-made doctrines.
Fleshly pride and a lack of understanding of proper and acceptable hermeneutics through a systematic study of the Bible keep many from seeing what's actually stated within each verse, reading the words carefully for what they say and don't say. Salvation by grace through faith is why biblical Christianity is so different from all other religions—it's the ONLY "religion" that teaches salvation as a gift of God and not of works.
MM
Retention of salvation is entirely immersed into the muck and mire of works-based salvation, having given in to mankind's tendency toward pride. Because salvation by works appeals to man’s sinful nature, it forms the basis of almost every religion except for biblical Christianity. When asking such people about their salvation, they sometimes launch into their resume of what they DO after the point of salvation to retain it, as if our efforts could ever retain what is given ONLY on the basis of GRACE. Redefining GRACE into a contrived, warped and twisted definition gives them the confidence to speak of their efforts of retention through abstaining from as much of their former lives of sin as possible.
Dare they be asked where that line resides for an alleged loss of salvation, that is the point in the discussion where the fudge-factored grease for that slippery-slope they're on becomes apparent as they try to slide downward and away from the question knowing full well that they have no real answers that could ever possess a measure of unquestioning solidity. Some brave souls even point at verses where they ASSUME salvational loss to be the meaning regardless of the absence of such within the contexts. Forcing meaning into scripture is the fodder of Gnostic endeavors to try and force scripture into conformity to man-made doctrines.
Fleshly pride and a lack of understanding of proper and acceptable hermeneutics through a systematic study of the Bible keep many from seeing what's actually stated within each verse, reading the words carefully for what they say and don't say. Salvation by grace through faith is why biblical Christianity is so different from all other religions—it's the ONLY "religion" that teaches salvation as a gift of God and not of works.
MM
sounds like you also describing a condition your also familiar with m. It's called rebellion
That passage is being plucked outside its context and wrongly slapped into a different setting.
First of all.
Jesus came to the Jews as a rabbi.
Mostly teaching from the Torah to them.
He was teaching Jews, not the church.
Though some that heard him teach were later to become the Church, Jesus had to remain as a rabbi,
teaching Jews according to what could be known from the Torah. Anything that he may have pointed to
concerning the Church was not to be yet tro be understood by them.
Mathew 24:13 needs to be shown in the light of what Jesus spoke about.
Where was it being spoken from?
From the Temple in Jerusalem, as seen in Matthew 21-12.
Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there.
He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.
As they were later leaving the Temple, Jesus continued speaking to the Jews concerning the future of the Jews.Matthew 24:1-13
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention
to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be
left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said,
“when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming,
‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it
that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise
against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various
places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations
because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and
many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the
love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
What Jesus described to the Jews was a world side trend of the future, taking place in the Great Tribulation.
For the Tribulation will involve God using Jews once more after the Church is removed in the Rapture.
That is why we are told there will be 144,000 Jews called of God to preach and warn people during those seven years.
Remember? The Church age, at that time, was a concealed mystery that was yet hidden from being known.
When Jesus spoke in the Temple, what he said could only be applicable to the Jews hearing him speak.
About those who will endure to the end?
They will be people on earth who endure to the end of the seven-year Tribulation!
They who endure will be saved (delivered) and enter into the Millennial Kingdom .
Matthew 24:13?
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved?
It does not pertain to the Church age!
grace and peace ...........
Many believe that just believing in Jesus is enough for eternal life they base this on a few verses from John but we must understand the full context of what John throughout his writings meant.
Jesus said in John 6:40, “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
These words were spoken after He had fed the five thousand and the people followed Him, not because they truly understood who He was, but because they wanted more food and miracles. Jesus began to teach them that they should not labor for the food that perishes but for the food that endures to everlasting life. He told them that the true bread from heaven is not the manna their fathers ate, but Himself, the One sent by the Father to give life to the world. In that teaching, this verse becomes the heart of His message, showing what it really means to come to Him and to believe in Him.
When Jesus said that everyone who “sees the Son” will have life, He obviously did not mean seeing with physical eyes alone.
Many people in His time saw Him, but only a few truly recognized who He was. To see the Son means to recognize and understand Him in spirit, to realize that He is the Son of God, the Word made flesh, the perfect image of the Father’s love and will. Jesus told Philip, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). This means that to see Jesus is to see the character, mercy, and holiness of God. It is a seeing that happens through faith, when the heart opens to the truth and light that He brings. Those who only look at Him with curiosity or seek signs do not really see the Son. But those whose hearts are opened by faith see Him for who He truly is, and that is where life begins.
Then Jesus said that those who “believe in Him” will have eternal life. This word “believe” is often misunderstood. In our modern language, to believe usually means to agree with something in our minds, to accept it as true. But in the language of Jesus, believing means much more. The word used in the Gospel of John, “pisteuō,” means to trust completely, to rely upon, and to give oneself to another.
To believe in Jesus means not only to accept that He exists or that He is the Son of God, but to trust His words, follow His teachings, and live as He commands. True belief joins faith with obedience. Jesus explained this clearly when He said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). He also said, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). A person cannot truly believe in Jesus and at the same time ignore what He taught.
Real faith moves the heart to action, just as someone who believes a bridge will hold them will walk across it. Belief is not silent or still; it produces the fruit of obedience and love. This kind of belief brings a new kind of life. Jesus said, “He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life” (John 5:24). Notice that He says “has,” not “will have.” Eternal life is not only something future but begins now, in this world, when a person receives the truth of Christ and lives by it. It is the life of God entering the soul, a life of peace, purity, and joy through the Spirit. This is what Jesus meant when He said that those who believe will have eternal life. They begin to live the life of heaven while still on earth, walking in the light of the truth, filled with the love that comes from God.
But Jesus also said, “I will raise him up at the last day.” It shows that eternal life has both a present and a future part. Now it is the spiritual life of the soul; later it will be the resurrection of the body. Jesus repeated this promise four times in this same chapter (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54), showing how certain it is that those who remain faithful will rise from death to life when He returns. This resurrection is the final reward of those who have truly believed — not those who merely confessed His name, but those who lived according to His word. To believe is to stay faithful until the end, trusting and following Him no matter the cost.
When Jesus said, “This is the will of My Father,” He revealed that it is God’s desire for all people to see the Son and to truly believe in Him. God does not want anyone to perish but that all should come to life through His Son. But that life is not found through words only; it is found in a heart that trusts and obeys. To believe in Christ is to give Him your heart, your will, and your life. It is to accept His teachings, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments. This is the faith that Jesus honors, the faith that transforms a person into a child of God.
When Jesus spoke these words, He was calling the people away from an empty kind of belief — one that seeks blessings and miracles but does not seek the truth. He was calling them to a faith that abides. Later He said, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31–32). This is what it means to believe in Him: to remain in His word, to live by His truth, to let His Spirit guide every step. Such faith does not end when life becomes difficult. It endures, it obeys, and it trusts until the last day when He fulfills His promise, saying, “I will raise him up.”
The true meaning of “believe” in John 6:40 is not a mere thought or confession, but a living trust joined with obedience and love. It is seeing Jesus with the eyes of faith, understanding that He is the Son of God, trusting and giving yourself completely to Him. It is walking in His words, following His path, and holding fast to His truth until the end. This is the kind of belief that brings everlasting life, both now and in the resurrection to come.
Jesus said in John 6:40, “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
These words were spoken after He had fed the five thousand and the people followed Him, not because they truly understood who He was, but because they wanted more food and miracles. Jesus began to teach them that they should not labor for the food that perishes but for the food that endures to everlasting life. He told them that the true bread from heaven is not the manna their fathers ate, but Himself, the One sent by the Father to give life to the world. In that teaching, this verse becomes the heart of His message, showing what it really means to come to Him and to believe in Him.
When Jesus said that everyone who “sees the Son” will have life, He obviously did not mean seeing with physical eyes alone.
Many people in His time saw Him, but only a few truly recognized who He was. To see the Son means to recognize and understand Him in spirit, to realize that He is the Son of God, the Word made flesh, the perfect image of the Father’s love and will. Jesus told Philip, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). This means that to see Jesus is to see the character, mercy, and holiness of God. It is a seeing that happens through faith, when the heart opens to the truth and light that He brings. Those who only look at Him with curiosity or seek signs do not really see the Son. But those whose hearts are opened by faith see Him for who He truly is, and that is where life begins.
Then Jesus said that those who “believe in Him” will have eternal life. This word “believe” is often misunderstood. In our modern language, to believe usually means to agree with something in our minds, to accept it as true. But in the language of Jesus, believing means much more. The word used in the Gospel of John, “pisteuō,” means to trust completely, to rely upon, and to give oneself to another.
To believe in Jesus means not only to accept that He exists or that He is the Son of God, but to trust His words, follow His teachings, and live as He commands. True belief joins faith with obedience. Jesus explained this clearly when He said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). He also said, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). A person cannot truly believe in Jesus and at the same time ignore what He taught.
Real faith moves the heart to action, just as someone who believes a bridge will hold them will walk across it. Belief is not silent or still; it produces the fruit of obedience and love. This kind of belief brings a new kind of life. Jesus said, “He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life” (John 5:24). Notice that He says “has,” not “will have.” Eternal life is not only something future but begins now, in this world, when a person receives the truth of Christ and lives by it. It is the life of God entering the soul, a life of peace, purity, and joy through the Spirit. This is what Jesus meant when He said that those who believe will have eternal life. They begin to live the life of heaven while still on earth, walking in the light of the truth, filled with the love that comes from God.
But Jesus also said, “I will raise him up at the last day.” It shows that eternal life has both a present and a future part. Now it is the spiritual life of the soul; later it will be the resurrection of the body. Jesus repeated this promise four times in this same chapter (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54), showing how certain it is that those who remain faithful will rise from death to life when He returns. This resurrection is the final reward of those who have truly believed — not those who merely confessed His name, but those who lived according to His word. To believe is to stay faithful until the end, trusting and following Him no matter the cost.
When Jesus said, “This is the will of My Father,” He revealed that it is God’s desire for all people to see the Son and to truly believe in Him. God does not want anyone to perish but that all should come to life through His Son. But that life is not found through words only; it is found in a heart that trusts and obeys. To believe in Christ is to give Him your heart, your will, and your life. It is to accept His teachings, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments. This is the faith that Jesus honors, the faith that transforms a person into a child of God.
When Jesus spoke these words, He was calling the people away from an empty kind of belief — one that seeks blessings and miracles but does not seek the truth. He was calling them to a faith that abides. Later He said, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31–32). This is what it means to believe in Him: to remain in His word, to live by His truth, to let His Spirit guide every step. Such faith does not end when life becomes difficult. It endures, it obeys, and it trusts until the last day when He fulfills His promise, saying, “I will raise him up.”
The true meaning of “believe” in John 6:40 is not a mere thought or confession, but a living trust joined with obedience and love. It is seeing Jesus with the eyes of faith, understanding that He is the Son of God, trusting and giving yourself completely to Him. It is walking in His words, following His path, and holding fast to His truth until the end. This is the kind of belief that brings everlasting life, both now and in the resurrection to come.
The veiled undercurrent of this posting of yours, not sure if it was or was not copied and pasted from somewhere else, is works-based salvation leaning, which will save nobody. Nothing can add to our having been saved by grace through faith. Works and obedience are indeed good things, but they do not save anyone and they do not retain anyone's salvation from an alleged loss, as is believed by some.
MM
No you still do not get it, salvation is not work based. Read James he tells it as it is but you still do not understand....
and yes the text is mine!