How Much Would YOU Pay to Keep Your Parents And/Or Grandparents From Living in Sin?

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seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
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Hey Everyone,

Every married person in church will tell a single person to get married. And everyone knows the most important part of 2 becoming 1 is the vow, "'Til death do us part."

The part that's always bothered me is that NO ONE in church talks about "when death finally comes, and what was once 1 flesh -- is now literally ripped in half."

I've been around older people all my life, and have seen first hand how the death of a spouse after 60+ years of marriage devastates people. They often lose their entire community, along with their spouse (married friends no longer see them as having anything in common and shun them; some marrieds are afraid that this now-single person will steal away their own spouse.) The person left behind is often abandoned and practically left for dead, and this was right in the middle of God-fearing churches.

I knew one elderly man who called himself "an orphan" after his wife died, which is heart-breaking but an all too-often reality for many formerly married who are left behind.

A family member recently told me about a situation in which two people at a local retirement home, both age 85 and left behind (their spouses had died,) decided that they liked each other, became a couple, and moved in together -- partially to save on costs. The facility is eye-wateringly expensive, with the rent starting at about $5000 a month, plus an initial fee of several thousand more. Living together would cost them about $6000 together ($5000 + $1000 for having an extra person in the same place,) and save about $4000 a month. Yes, I know it's an outrageous cost either way, but this is the reality of the region where I live.

Both members of this couple have mobility issues and help each other with basic household tasks, as well as enjoying having someone there instead of having to be alone.

Another resident who lives there leads a Bible study group -- and he has told them that they are living in sin.

Now for myself, and this is just me, but the first thing I'm thinking is, "How much... uh... are two 85-year-olds with disabilities doing?" But as far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business, and something between the God and the people involved.

I understand that the Bible class leader believes he's doing his Christian duty, calling out others for their sins.

But I wonder what his approach would be if God told him, "Ok, you've convicted them -- now it's YOUR responsibility to help them with their living costs."

After all, 1 John 3:17 says, "If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but closes their heart to them, the love of God cannot be in that person."

Growing up in the church, it's always bothered me that I saw so many people giving others what they thought was their calling, and giving what they felt people needed -- a stern lecture and rebuke -- but never actually lifted a finger when it came to helping that person. They had all the words to offer because words are free -- but what would happen if God required them to give something that cost them?

My heart really does go out to this couple. I've heard of many instances of older people (I'm thinking 60's and above particularly) who want companionship but have chosen to live with each other and not marry because it will affect their income (loss of government benefits, higher taxes, etc.) Another pastor I admire has said some of the most challenging ministry work he has to do is confront older single/divorced adults who believe that "celibacy is good for kids... but I'm a grown adult (and that no longer applies to me.)"

I understand that we are not to make compromises. I understand that we are to obey God's commands no matter what the cost.

But what would you do if it was YOUR mother, father, grandmother, grandfather, etc. who was or wanted to "live in sin"?

Most especially if it was going to cost YOU as a result?

For instance:

* Would you take on extra hours/work/jobs to help pay for their expenses? (This would be to either help them keep their own place, or help them to make up for any lost benefits when they marry.)

* Would you have them move in with you, rather than let them move in with a partner?

* Would you help them with the things they needed (bringing meals, helping at home, etc.) if living separate from their partner meant they needed more aid? (Especially if they are handicapped, have special needs, need someone to remind them to take medicines, etc.)

* Would you provide transportation, if that was an issue?

I know many of you out there are already doing all of this -- and more -- and I pray God blesses you abundantly for it.

The real point of this discussion is that it's easy to tell someone that they're sinning.

But in turn, I want to ask, "What would you do if God then actively, and ongoing, required you to pay for/provide/do what it takes to help keep that person from sinning?"



I would love to hear your thoughts, especially from anyone who has or is actively dealing with this.
 
Nothing.

If you have to pay someone to not live in sin then their heart is not right before the Lord and they are not walking in faith.

I understand your thinking on this.

But it does make me sad to think of someone telling an 85-year-old disabled person that their heart simply isn't right and that they're just not walking in faith and not lifting a single finger to help in any other way.

I mean, surely a handicapped 85-year-old can just pull him or herself up by their bootstraps and work 2-3 jobs to pay for rent, medication, and the medical care they need.

Right?
 
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But it does make me sad to think of someone telling an 85-year-old disabled person that their heart simply isn't right and that they're just not walking in faith and not lifting a single finger to help in any other way.

If someone is living in sin, LOVE would try to help them stop living in sin.

The point is, you can't really pay money to stop someone from living in sin.

The 85 year old's family should be taking them in but a true New Testament church would not be seeking to help someone long term who is willingly and knowingly living in sin.

At some point all you'd be doing is enabling a sinner to continue in their sin which is donating money and help to the devil.
 
If someone is living in sin, LOVE would try to help them stop living in sin.

The point is, you can't really pay money to stop someone from living in sin.

The 85 year old's family should be taking them in but a true New Testament church would not be seeking to help someone long term who is willingly and knowingly living in sin.

At some point all you'd be doing is enabling a sinner to continue in their sin which is donating money and help to the devil.


Many of these elderly people have no family that is willing or able to help them, or simply don't have families.

This couple is wanting to do the right thing, but are concerned they won't be able to survive financially, and would need help paying for separate apartments. And, they're 85 and disabled.

If they don't happen to be having sex, is living together still an issue? (I know, I know. Someone is going to bring up the passage about not giving the appearance of evil -- 1 Thessalonians 5:2.)

I read a quote recently that I wish I would have written down. It basically said, "Christians hate it when other people sin differently than they do."

I do understand what you're saying. But every single person on this earth has some kind of willful, continuing sin going on in their life.
And I do understand that at some point, you have to cut them off and refuse to be an enabler.

But that's like saying, "Don't try to help someone who's overweight, because they're just willfully enabling someone who is choosing to continuously sin (by overeating, or constantly eating what they know is killing them.)"

In other words, making no attempt to help at all might be a that person's sin, not the sin of the person they are rebuking, because we do not know when or if someone will change (I do understand that there has to be a cut-off point or to not start if there is a clear history and warning.)

But the Bible also says, Matthew 7:1-2 -- "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Just out of curiosity, did you read the entire first post, or just the title?

No problem either way. I know a lot of people aren't interested in my first posts and only answer the title question.

But my first thread posts almost always contain something that might cause someone to contemplate their answer from a different angle.

No worries either way, as I'm guessing you'd say the same in either case, which I understand.
 
If they don't happen to be having sex, is living together still an issue?

Depends on them. If they are not touching one another sexually but still have lust for each other then they are continuing in sin.


But every single person on this earth has some kind of willful, continuing sin going on in their life.

That's NOT true... real Christians do not willingly and knowingly engage in sinful behavior.

We should have a clean conscience before the Lord departing from all kn own sin in our lives.

Unless one is a purveyor of the false doctrines of catholicism and reformed theology where they are taught that God put sin in each little baby when he created their soul in which case they believe in error that nobody can stop sinning even after they get born again and filled with the Holy Ghost.


And after all, the Bible does say, Matthew 7:1-2 -- "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

I judge myself far more harshly than I would ever judge anybody else.


But my first thread posts almost always contain something that might cause someone to contemplate their answer from a different angle.

We should all seek to answer from the Lord's perspective which can be found in His Word.
 
Depends on them. If they are not touching one another sexually but still have lust for each other then they are continuing in sin.




That's NOT true... real Christians do not willingly and knowingly engage in sinful behavior.

We should have a clean conscience before the Lord departing from all kn own sin in our lives.

Unless one is a purveyor of the false doctrines of catholicism and reformed theology where they are taught that God put sin in each little baby when he created their soul in which case they believe in error that nobody can stop sinning even after they get born again and filled with the Holy Ghost.




I judge myself far more harshly than I would ever judge anybody else.




We should all seek to answer from the Lord's perspective which can be found in His Word.


Just to try to understand your perspective...

Is the root of your belief in sinless perfectionism?


I personally believe people participate in sins they either can't or won't stop any day, often regarding health issues -- smoking, purposely eating too much or too little, not exercising when they should or not following sound advice when they know they should, gossip disguised as "catching up" or "prayer," hatred or malice, jealously, etc.

This is just my own believe, but I believe that every single person commits some kind of willful sin on a regular basis.

They probably don't want to, but they do.

And I also believe that yes, the repentant believer is forgiven for each sin, whether willful, unintended, or unaware.
 
In the example is there some reason they don't want to officially get married? How much does a marriage license cost? How much would it cost to get the pastor of that Bible study leaders Church to come down and say a few words? I would pay that.

I have to disagree with you about sinning everyday. 1 Corinthians chapter 6 directly refutes that.
 
In the example is there some reason they don't want to officially get married? How much does a marriage license cost? How much would it cost to get the pastor of that Bible study leaders Church to come down and say a few words? I would pay that.

I have to disagree with you about sinning everyday. 1 Corinthians chapter 6 directly refutes that.
Sorry. That was Romans 6, not 1 Corinthians 6. My bad.
 
Wow, so the Lester the child molester can willfully keep sexually abusing children and still go to Heaven?

It's the same question as to whether or not Ted Bundy actually went to heaven or not.

Only God knows.

Years ago, I was part of a ministry that wrote to inmates. One of the men I wrote was in his 20's, had been molested from childhood by a neighbor but no one intervened -- they laughed at him and told him he must like it instead. He was in prison because he had fallen into the same behavior pattern. He said he wanted to stop and that he was a Christian.

Will he go to heaven?

Again, all I can say is that only God knows.

It's like asking about the dozens and dozens, probably hundreds, of people we've seen come and go on this forum because they state that they view pornography daily, sometimes several times a day, and sometimes for hours at a time.

They literally beg for help, but at the same time, say they can't stop. Or the person who doesn't stop their lustful thoughts, even without pornography.

What do you think, @StanDupp?

Will they go to heaven?

This is what I mean in that I think most everyone has some kind of closeted sin they willfully commit -- no matter how much they say they want to stop.

For many people these days, even if it's not porn, it's often food.
 
Now that was kind of mean...

It's a real question.

There are those that claim all future sins are automatically forgiven which is a doctrine of demons and it mocking God.

Galatians 6:7,8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
 
It's a real question.

There are those that claim all future sins are automatically forgiven which is a doctrine of demons and it mocking God.

Galatians 6:7,8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


And I gave a real answer.

If anyone can claim they never willfully sin... So all of their sins are just accidental...

Then all I can do is stand in awe at how they've learned to be better than most everyone else.
 
It's the same question as to whether or not Ted Bundy actually went to heaven or not.
If he confessed and forsook his sin, then yes.



He said he wanted to stop and that he was a Christian.

Will he go to heaven?

Only if he confesses and forsakes his sin




Again, all I can say is that only God knows.

God has provided the answer in His Word.

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.




They literally beg for help, but at the same time, say they can't stop.

What do you think, @StanDupp?

They are listening to the lies of the devil who keep telling them in the first person "I can't quit"

If they would Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

Galatians 5:16-25
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Clearly, those that continue in their sin will not go to Heaven.

They keep doing sin because they like to sin and they enjoy it and so the Lord turns them over to a reprobate mind because they love their sin more than they love the Lord which is evident because sin is first place in their life.
 
If he confessed and forsook his sin, then yes.





Only if he confesses and forsakes his sin






God has provided the answer in His Word.

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.






They are listening to the lies of the devil who keep telling them in the first person "I can't quit"

If they would Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

Galatians 5:16-25
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Clearly, those that continue in their sin will not go to Heaven.

They keep doing sin because they like to sin and they enjoy it and so the Lord turns them over to a reprobate mind because they love their sin more than they love the Lord which is evident because sin is first place in their life.
Technically I have to agree with you. Only technically.

Practically I have to disagree with the way you are stating your case. Dial it back a bit dude. This ain't the bible discussion forum. We don't use hostile debate tactics here. We chit chat.

For example, the Lester comment. That was coming in way too hot for this forum. That's more the kind of thing they say in the bible discussion forum.
 
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Dial it back a bit dude

In other words, don't take what God said as being the Truth???

God said what He said and it IS Truth, so shouldn't that be what Christians go by?

Ya know, being a Christian is like a salmon swimming up stream as they are going against the flow of the world in which they live.
 
In the example is there some reason they don't want to officially get married? How much does a marriage license cost? How much would it cost to get the pastor of that Bible study leaders Church to come down and say a few words? I would pay that.

I have to disagree with you about sinning everyday. 1 Corinthians chapter 6 directly refutes that.
Sorry. That was Romans 6, not 1 Corinthians 6. My bad.


I understand, and I'm glad you brought this up.

I'm almost finished going through my time of reading the Bible all the way through (I'm currently in the middle of Revelation -- I just have to finish that and the discussion topics at the end,) but I'm writing down Romans to go back to next. This will be my 8th time reading the Bible through, but of course, it's a lifetime learning process.

I know that many here have said no true Christian willfully sins.

I tend to question that.

When the multiple people come here ask for help with pornography, they're willingly opening their phones and computers, purposefully looking up the material they are seeking.

If someone sees someone attractive, they might choose to willingly have the wrong thoughts about them.

When the ladies at church gather, the honest ones will admit that part of the willful purpose of gathering is to "catch up" -- on other people's business that's not meant to be shared -- in the name of fellowship.

When the person who knows they need to lose weight eats donuts and fast food, they're willfully choosing to do so -- even though they knew it was killing them.

I don't say this in criticism of anyone, or any particular sin. But yes, I believe there are times when even the most devout of Christians willfully choose to sin.


I once read the story of a grown man in his mid-40's who was struggling because he had been sexually abused by a neighbor in his youth. No matter how much he tried or how much counseling he went to, he couldn't get past it. The Christian counselor who saw him through his breakthrough (and wrote the book) said that God told him the reason he wasn't healing was because, it started out as abuse.

But somewhere along the way, he grew to like it, and would willingly, purposefully go to the neighbor's house -- fully knowing and seeking what was going to happen.


Medically, I am supposed to avoid certain foods, like carbs.

But yet I willingly choose to overindulge in them every day.

And I personally believe God sees this as sin.