"God used Zipporah"?
Was Zipporah acting on her own will just as Moses was acting on his own will?
Saved by faith alone?
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Was Zipporah acting on her own will just as Moses was acting on his own will?
I don't see it as divorcing good/loving works from saving faith. Believers have been made alive together with Christ and saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
All genuine believers are fruitful yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and believers have received the love of God in their hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to them. (Romans 5:5) Love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)
Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith in Christ (James 2:14-24) but not the very essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 4:2-6) Where folks error is where they redefine faith to include works, which culminates in works salvation/works righteousness.
You say works aren’t divorced from faith, like fruit isn’t divorced from root.
And then you say fruit isn’t the essence of the root, and it’s wrong to define the root by the fruit.
Yet you also say no fruit means no root.
If necessary fruit doesn’t express the essence of the root, then what does?
If the root can’t be known without fruit, then fruit is part of what the root is.
Saying works aren’t part of pistis but are required for pistis to be alive is like saying breath isn’t part of life but is required to make you alive.
You're breaking logic.
We're dealing with essence and definition.
James exposed this centuries ago.
Works not being divorced from faith doesn't mean that works are the very essence of faith but works are the demonstrative evidence of faith. Works are not required for faith to become alive but to demonstrate that faith is alive. It's the same with a fruit tree. To say that a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith is like saying that a dead fruit tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree, which is certainly not logical.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
James is not using the term "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
I'm going to remain on the point of what faith is and is not, and I'm going to seek precision in language:
You said, “Works not being divorced from faith doesn't mean that works are the very essence of faith.”
- Seeking some precision, Are works part of the essence of faith?
- But James says, “Faith, if it does not have (echē) works, is dead according to itself / in itself / by itself (kath' heautēn).”
- The verb echē is not language of producing something separate. It’s language of possessing, containing, and being part of a whole (BDAG)
- The phrase kath’ heautēn means by itself, in itself, according to its own nature — BDAG: “in itself, intrinsically, independently of anything else.”
- James is saying pistis is intrinsically dead if it does not have works
- So works are not just demonstrative — they are part of pistis’s living essence
- If pistis does not have works, it is not pistis that is alive.
You also seem to be suggesting that faith alone - faith by itself, faith having nothing else - is genuine faith, which is exactly the opposite of what James says.
Your argument culminates in salvation by faith AND works in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Roman Catholics make the same error by confusing the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit of salvation (works). You seem to ignore says/claims to have faith but has no works (James 2:14) along with I will show you my faith by my works.
Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 8 through faith. That is the moment our faith becomes alive in Christ. By grace through faith, not works. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Notice the order. We are not saved by a dead faith that produces no works which is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)
It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
Your argument culminates in salvation by faith AND works in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Roman Catholics make the same error by confusing the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit of salvation (works). You seem to ignore says/claims to have faith but has no works (James 2:14) along with I will show you my faith by my works.
Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 8 through faith. That is the moment our faith becomes alive in Christ. By grace through faith, not works. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Notice the order. We are not saved by a dead faith that produces no works which is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)
It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
Again, I’m staying on the point of what pistis is.
You say, “Works are demonstrative evidence of faith,” and that “faith alone saves.”
But James says, “Faith, if it does not have works, is dead — kath’ heautēn.”
That’s not about fruit following root. It’s about pistis being dead in itself if it does not have works.
Again, the verb echē means possess, contain, hold — not produce. And the phrase kath’ heautēn means intrinsically, in itself, by its own nature.
So James is not saying “faith is alive but unproven.” He’s saying “faith without works is not alive.”
That means works are not just evidence - they are part of pistis’s living essence.
You say we are not saved by dead faith that produces no works.
I agree.
But then you say works are not part of pistis - only evidence of it.
That’s a contradiction.
If pistis must have works to be alive, then works are part of what pistis is — not just what it shows.
Redefining pistis does not defend grace.
James exposed this centuries ago.
Pistis (faith) is the assurance of things hope for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Pistis is not ergon (works). Works are the demonstrative evidence of faith and faith that "trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation" saves. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone barren of works." (James 2:14-24) The latter is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.
In Matthew 7:17, Jesus said a good tree bears or produces good fruit.. Jesus did not say the good fruit in essence is the good tree itself. In the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:20-21, we see that the seed sown on rocky ground has no root, produces no fruit and fails to endure. In contrast with the seed that was sown on good ground in Matthew 13:23, we see this person hears the word, understands, endures and bears fruit/produces a crop that yields 100, 60, or 30 times what was sown.
According to your logic, a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith, which is the same thing as saying that a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree, which is illogical. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. Life flows through the root (faith) and produces works, just like life flows through the root of a tree and produces fruit. You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.
In regard to works and grace, we are justified by faith (not faith and works) and we have access by faith into grace (not faith and works). Romans 5:1-2. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
James establishes that works are part of the essence of living pistis, just as breath is part of the essence of a living body.
James does not say that pistis is alive without works and merely unproven - he says pistis without works is dead, kath’ heautēn - dead in itself, by its own nature. That’s not about evidence. That’s about essence.
Re: Heb11:1 - I'm going to set this aside for now as a separate exegetical discussion. It does not prove faith-alone and there are some translation and contextual issues that deserve some very focused attention. For now, note that the presence of estin (“is”) does not automatically mean the verse is providing a definition. Greek eimi often functions to assert identity, quality, or result, not to define essence or essence in totality. So to treat pistis estin in Heb11:1 as a timeless, complete definition of pistis, while ignoring nekra estin (“is dead”) in James2:17 as merely descriptive, is inconsistent.
Re: “Pistis is not ergon” - agreed. And James doesn’t say pistis is works. He says pistis without works is dead. That means works are not the whole of pistis, but they are part of what makes pistis living. Just as breath is not the body, but a body without breath is dead - so pistis is not works but pistis without works is dead. Again, James is dealing with part of the essence of pistis.
Re: “Works are the demonstrative evidence of faith” - One of the problems with these systematic traditions is that they tend to place extreme emphasis on one part of a biblical discussion while ignoring its full context. They isolate a phrase like “I will show you my faith by my works” (James2:18) and treat it as if James is merely talking about external demonstration - while ignoring his repeated premise that pistis without works is dead in itself (kath’ heautēn).
James is not simply saying, “My pistis is alive, and here’s the proof.” James is saying, “My pistis is alive because it has works - and that’s why it can be shown.” You can’t demonstrate what doesn’t exist. You can’t show pistis by works unless pistis has works. And if it doesn’t have works, James says it is dead - it's not living pistis.
So James2:18 doesn’t contradict his premise - it depends on it. The ability to show pistis by works presupposes that works are part of pistis’s living essence.
Re: "faith that "trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation" saves. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone barren of works." (James 2:14-24) The latter is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith."
You say, “Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation saves.” But that’s not a definition of pistis - it’s a theological slogan. Scripture doesn’t define pistis by the content it trusts. Scripture defines pistis by its relational, appositional grammar, its commanded expressions, and its living possession of works.
James doesn’t say, “Faith that trusts in Jesus but has no works is still alive.” James says, “Faith, if it does not have works, is dead — kath’ heautēn" - dead in itself. Not genuine. Not living. Not saving.
You also say, “Not to be confused with dead faith that remains alone, barren of works,” and call that “not genuine faith.”
That’s exactly James’s point. So if pistis “remains alone,” it is not pistis that is alive. And if it’s not alive, it’s not the pistis that saves.
You’re trying to affirm “faith alone saves” while also admitting that “faith alone is not genuine.” That’s a contradiction.
James resolves it: Pistis that does not have works is dead pistis. Therefore, works are part of pistis’s living essence.
James and Paul are in full agreement. Salvation is by grace - not by works - but through living pistis, which has works.
Paul never describes pistis as barren. He says we are “created in Christ Jesus for good works” (Eph2:10), “faith works through love” (Gal5:6), “those who by endurance in good works seek glory, honor, and immortality — eternal life” (Rom2:7).
So Paul affirms that pistis is not passive or empty of defining essence. It is living, enduring, obedient, and working — just as James says.
The contradiction only appears when pistis is redefined by stripping it of its essence or parts of its essence, and then works are treated as [optional] evidence.
Salvation is not earned by men's works. But living pistis that saves is never without works. Because pistis, to be alive, must have [good] works.
There is no shift in definition. Pistis is not redefined at the moment of salvation, nor stripped of its relational and essential grammar to protect grace.
God rightly receives all credit for the work that saves - but that does not mean pistis becomes something else for a moment.
Scripture defines pistis by its commanded and instructed expressions: abiding, enduring, obeying, loving, having works, and more. These are not added later - they are part of pistis’s living essence.
The kind of faith that James is talking about that's "by itself" is an empty profession of faith/dead faith. In James 2:14, James says - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says (claims) he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith which is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. So, once again, in James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) James said I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18) which is evidence. Paul said even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 8 through faith, 9 not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. (vs. 10) You put the cart before the horse.
The writer of Hebrews clearly stated that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. The writer did not say faith is works. You seem to be too intellectual to understand this simple truth. Understanding the things of God is not all about human intelligence. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)
In regard to "faith without works is dead," James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Once again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!
Showing is demonstrating. I don't ignore faith without works is dead, just like I don't ignore says/claims to have faith but has no works in James 2:14. Works-salvationists seem to ignore that James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
James is saying my faith is alive and here is the proof. I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:18) You have a dead faith producing works in order to become a living faith, which makes works the source of life in faith and the means of our salvation, which seems to be your ultimate goal.
Works are the fruit (a good tree bears good fruit) but not the essence of faith.
So, you don't trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation? You also trust in works for salvation as well? That sounds obvious to me. Scripture does not define pistis as works.
Lexical Summary
pistis: Faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity
1. persuasion, i.e. credence
2. (morally) conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher)
3. (especially) reliance upon Christ for salvation
4. (abstractly) constancy in such profession
5. (by extension) the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself
Strong's Greek: 4102. πίστις (pistis) -- Faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity
So, made alive together with Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-8) means dead faith that needs to produce works in order to become alive?
Illogical. Remains alone is the key. We are saved by faith at it's origin (Ephesians 2:5-9) and not at some time later, after we accomplish a list of works.
It only sounds like a contradiction to works-salvationists. Man is saved by faith alone "apart from the merit of works" (Romans 4:2-6) yet genuine faith does not remain alone "apart from the presence of works" (James 2:14-24)
CONTINUED..
False. That would change salvation by faith into salvation by faith AND works if works were the very essence of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. We are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) which would be a contradiction if works were the very essence of faith.
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24) It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
Yes, created in Christ Jesus FIRST (saved by grace through faith, not works) then FOR/UNTO good works. Faith in Christ is established FIRST and then good works follow. Faith does work through love and God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. (Romans 5:5) In regard to Romans 2:7, patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not the means of procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.
*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.
These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-26; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
Pistis is alive in Christ and results in obedience, working, endurance, just as Paul and James said.
Works are not the essence of pistis which would make faith and works one in essence. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. So, you prefer works as the essence of pistis and not optional evidence because you are seeking salvation by works?
Salvation is absolutely not earned by men's works and living pistis that saves does not remain barren of works. It takes a living faith to produce works and works confirm it. You still have the cart before the horse. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
Layman's terms please? You sure make this complicated.
If works were the essence of faith, then we would be saved by both faith AND works and God would not receive all credit for the work that saves. You can't have it both ways.
There is a difference between what faith is and what faith results in. Your argument culminates in salvation by faith AND works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. Nothing in the root meaning of pistis carries any concept of works. If you have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Now although faith results in actions appropriate to faith (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful -- Matthew 13:23) the actions are NOT INHERENT in faith.
Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I basically defined faith "as" obedience and any act of obedience accomplished I would simply call it "faith." Back them I would have said faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works which is a critical error that culminates in salvation by works which sounds like the same error you are making.
Out of curiosity, where do you attend church?
Since you're using Matthew who does not use pistis or pisteuo as Luke does, I will assume you're still dealing with pistis.
You said, “Jesus did not say the good fruit is the good tree itself.” True - but He did say, “Every tree is known by its fruit.” (Matt7:20). Sounds like James learned from Jesus.
If a good tree is not without good fruit, then good fruit is part of what it means to be a good tree.
Likewise, James says pistis without works is dead in itself — in its essence, not just unproven. So if pistis is not alive without works, then works are part of what pistis is, not just what it shows.
Combined, Jesus and James both teach: Essence is revealed by what it necessarily bears. What does not bear is not alive. What does not bear good is not good.
Again, we're dealing with essence and parts of essence of pistis.
Re: Matt13: Yes, it's clear that pistis has essence that includes enduring and working/producing to different degrees. Jesus and James agree with each other - part of the essence of pistis is that it has works and endures. Remain consistent in defining pistis properly, understand who gets the credit for salvation, and all is well.
Your argument of turning works/fruit into the essence of faith culminates in works righteousness. You said, “Jesus did not say the good fruit is the good tree itself.” True - but He did say, “Every tree is known by its fruit.” (Matt7:20). The point that I have been trying to make is that the good fruit is not the good tree itself. You said True which contradicts fruit being the essence of a good tree/works being the essence of pistis. All I keep hearing from you is sugar coated double talk. Jesus did say every tree is known by it's fruit. That fruit is the evidence of whether or not it's a good tree or a bad tree. (Matthew 7:17-20) Pistis demonstrates that it's not alive if it remains barren of works.
WHERE DO YOU ATTEND CHURCH?
Non-Catholic anti-Calvinists don't consider works to be religious sacraments like you used to follow, but to be abstentions from works of the flesh and to be acts of love from the heart
So, according to you, we are saved by "these" works (acts of love from the heart) and just not "those" works (works of the flesh)? That sounds similar to what Roman Catholics teach.
I guess a good way of saying it is that we are rewarded with eternal life by abstaining from works of the flesh ("In your endurance you possess your souls") and we receive some kind of reward for good works done toward others and God at the resurrection. So no, acts of love don't save us (though without them genuine faith is suspect), but obeying God's voice instead of the flesh does save us.