Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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sawdust said:
You need to get with the program. My comment re the pogo stick was not in regards to whether God loves sinners or not but how we develop the trait and your leap that the poster must think God is not love. If the poster thought God is not love, then we could not learn to love.

Like I said, you really need to get on track. You don't even know what your disagreeing with. :ROFL:

But in relation to your question. One verse for you.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

There is also this one.

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That's agape love in action. Agape love desires the highest and best at all times, even for it's enemies.
Click to expand...

The "us" in Rom 5:8 = believers.

The FWT interpretation of 1Tim 2:4 has been thoroughly debunked often. "All men" = Gentiles in the slightly larger context. Therefore, "all men' is qualified in the passage.

Give me one passage in scripture that teaches explicitly that God loves evildoers. I have provided plenty of biblical passages that teach that God explicitly loves the righteous, God-fearers, believers, loves of God, lovers of His Son, etc.
 
John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV

Can any of you blind FWers notice what Jesus did not say? He didn't say that the "reason my Father loves me is because that is what He does". Nor did He say, the reason my father loves me is because He is love. Nor did He say that the reason his Father loves me is because his character will not permit Him to do otherwise. Nor did he say that my Father loves me just like He loves every single human being in the world.

Ditto for this passage:

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
NIV

It appears that you FWers are way too PROUD to admit to the truth Jesus taught. Your arrogant pride just won't let you, will it!? You're just way too proud of man's powerful "freewill". But your refusal to see this truth doesn't change the fact that Jesus very clearly qualified his Father's love.
 
Genez said:
He only received worship after the Atonement was completed.

Why?

For he no longer had to remain as a man.
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The Magi worshipped Him. The blind man He healed worshipped Him. The disciples worshipped Him when He calmed the storm. I would argue that the woman who anointed His feet worshipped Him.
 
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We all have free will; we aren't God's puppets. God knew us before we were, and He knows every step we take before we take it.


Psalm 139
For the choir director: A psalm of David.
1 O Lord, you have examined my heart
and know everything about me.
2 You know when I sit down or stand up.
You know my thoughts even when I’m far away.
3 You see me when I travel
and when I rest at home.
You know everything I do.
4 You know what I am going to say
even before I say it, Lord.
5 You go before me and follow me.
You place your hand of blessing on my head.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too great for me to understand!
7 I can never escape from your Spirit!
I can never get away from your presence!
8 If I go up to heaven, you are there;
if I go down to the grave, you are there.
9 If I ride the wings of the morning,
if I dwell by the farthest oceans,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
and your strength will support me.
11 I could ask the darkness to hide me
and the light around me to become night—
12 but even in darkness I cannot hide from you.
To you the night shines as bright as day.
Darkness and light are the same to you.
13 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body
and knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex!
Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it.
15 You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion,
as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.
16 You saw me before I was born.
Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
Every moment was laid out
before a single day had passed.
17 How precious are your thoughts about me, O God.
They cannot be numbered!
18 I can’t even count them;
they outnumber the grains of sand!
And when I wake up,
you are still with me!
19 O God, if only you would destroy the wicked!
Get out of my life, you murderers!
20 They blaspheme you;
your enemies misuse your name.
21 O Lord, shouldn’t I hate those who hate you?
Shouldn’t I despise those who oppose you?
22 Yes, I hate them with total hatred,
for your enemies are my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 Point out anything in me that offends you,
and lead me along the path of everlasting life.
 
Cameron143 said:
The Magi worshipped Him. The blind man He healed worshipped Him. The disciples worshipped Him when He calmed the storm. I would argue that the woman who anointed His feet worshipped Him.
Click to expand...
The blind man?

Then they turned again to the blind man, ​
“What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.”​
​
The man replied, “He is a prophet.” John 9:17​
​
.​
 
Nicole_Will said:
We all have free will; we aren't God's puppets.
Click to expand...
That is a logical fallacy and ignores what Scripture actually says. Man does have
volition and makes choices, but this does not equate to having a will that is free.

People making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of submitting to God, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing it in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue.

This is the crux of the conversation, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit, and there are none good, no, not one! But they reject a whole slew of Scriptures from beginning to end of the Bible, such as nothing good lives in man's flesh, and flesh serves the law of sin, and brings forth fruit unto death, all in favour of a doctrine that has zero support in the Bible, with not one verse articulating what they prefer over what is actually said. In fact they routinely contradict and deny what is explicitly stated, and really seem unable to stop ascribing to the unregenerated man qualities, characteristics, and abilities that only the regenerated person is in possession of.

Colossians2-8-Romans16-18-Romans10-2-Proverbs19-2.png

Colossians 2 v 8, Romans 16 v 18, Romans 10 v 2, Proverbs 19 v 2a ~ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Zeal is no good without knowledge.
 
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Cameron143 said:
The disciples worshipped Him when He calmed the storm.
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Matthew 16:15-17

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you
by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.


That does not mean he was functioning as God.
For it was the Father who revealed this reality that pertained to Him.

In contrast...
Moses after parting the sea, could have elicited the same kind of response with certain people.
But, Moses would have rebuked them.

Jesus would not rebuke his disciples because it was not a lie.
 
Cameron143 said:
John 9:38.
Click to expand...


Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

That still does not mean Jesus was functioning as God.
He was yet functioning as a man.
For, Peter healed the lame man, and was not functioning as God.

Jesus would not rebuke the healed blind man for worshipping him because it was not a lie.

The issue was.
Jesus remained functioning as a man.

Peter and Paul performed miracles.
Which proves, it does not take being God, to do so.
 
Magenta said:
That is a logical fallacy and ignores what Scripture actually says. Man does have
volition and makes choices, but this does not equate to having a will that is free. e.
Click to expand...

Free will means?

Free to use your volition without compulsion from something greater than yourself to coerce your ability to choose..

Probably, your notion of free will requires that we be God to have it.
 
Genez said:
Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

That still does not mean Jesus was functioning as God.
He was yet functioning as a man.
For, Peter healed the lame man, and was not functioning as God.

Jesus would not rebuke the healed blind man for worshipping him because it was not a lie.

The issue was.
Jesus remained functioning as a man.

Peter and Paul performed miracles.
Which proves, it does not take being God, to do so.
Click to expand...
So Jesus allowed a man to worship another man in violation of the 1st commandment?
The lengths you will go to protect falsehood is amazing.
 
Rufus said:
The "us" in Rom 5:8 = believers.

The FWT interpretation of 1Tim 2:4 has been thoroughly debunked often. "All men" = Gentiles in the slightly larger context. Therefore, "all men' is qualified in the passage.

Give me one passage in scripture that teaches explicitly that God loves evildoers. I have provided plenty of biblical passages that teach that God explicitly loves the righteous, God-fearers, believers, loves of God, lovers of His Son, etc.
Click to expand...

According to you, not me. Us is all.

But either way, you didn't fit the category of righteous, God fearing, God loving, Son loving etc when Christ died for you so it still fits. God loves because that is who He is and desiring the highest and best for the ungodly is what He does. :)
 
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Genez said:
An unregenerate person is ENSLAVED by the depravity of his flesh.

While enslaved, many wish they were not the way they find themselves to be.
At salvation power is given (grace) to make us enabled to become more and more to be as we wish we could be.

On the other hand?

With Total depravity?
All men would desire to continue remaining as they are.
That would be total depravity!


In Christ ........... grace and peace.
Click to expand...
Nope you've Got it wrong, the word became flesh. And dwelt amongst us
 
Cameron143 said:
So Jesus allowed a man to worship another man in violation of the 1st commandment?
The lengths you will go to protect falsehood is amazing.
Click to expand...

He remained functioning as man.

That does not mean he was not also God.
He was just not functioning in the power of His own Deity to remain being as a man.

His deity agreed not to empower him directly.
As a man of God, all his power had to be supplied by the Holy Spirit, not his own Deity.


Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, ​
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.​
And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, ​
even death on a cross.​
​
Philippians 2:6-8​


........
 
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