Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

Give me one verse in scripture that EXPLICITLY teaches that God loves the wicked. (Jn 3:16 doesn't count since you read your assumptions into the Gr. term "kosmos" which has about 9 different meanings.) I have given a whole slew of verses in the past that teach that God does not love evildoers, that he does in fact love the righteous, loves those who trust Him, loves those who fear Him, loves those who love Him and obeys Him...And hates, detests or loathes the wicked. Your argument that God's holy, righteous character requires him to love sinners doesn't hold a drop of water! God even loved his own Son on the condition of His obedience!

You need to get with the program. My comment re the pogo stick was not in regards to whether God loves sinners or not but how we develop the trait and your leap that the poster must think God is not love. If the poster thought God is not love, then we could not learn to love.

Like I said, you really need to get on track. You don't even know what your disagreeing with.

But in relation to your question. One verse for you.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

There is also this one.

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That's agape love in action. Agape love desires the highest and best at all times, even for it's enemies.

 

[Genez]

Give me one verse in scripture that EXPLICITLY teaches that God loves the wicked. (Jn 3:16 doesn't count since you read your assumptions into the Gr. term "kosmos" which has about 9 different meanings.) I have given a whole slew of verses in the past that teach that God does not love evildoers, that he does in fact love the righteous, loves those who trust Him, loves those who fear Him, loves those who love Him and obeys Him...And hates, detests or loathes the wicked. Your argument that God's holy, righteous character requires him to love sinners doesn't hold a drop of water! God even loved his own Son on the condition of His obedience!

Jesus died for our sins.

Jesus did not die for evil.

He could not die for evil.
To do so, he would have had to reject himself.

There is a vast difference.

God can love the sinner.
God can not love the evil ones.

 

[Genez]

So now you want to poison me? Strewth man, you really are gloryfying God ... not!

He's clump.

As long as he get's attention, he's pleased that he is satisfying his lust for it.

Until he uses 1 John 1:9 to regain the controlling of the Holy Spirit, do not expect much better from him.

 

[sawdust]

He's clump.

As long as he get's attention, he's pleased that he is satisfying his lust for it.

Until he uses 1 John 1:9 to regain the controlling of the Holy Spirit, do not expect much better from him.

LOL

I like @Rufus he keeps me laughing.

 

[Jordon]

We defend God against false doctrine and in order to reveal it for what it is, it needs to be strip of its fancy veneer.

The god of "TULIP" is outside of scripture, but those who have been indoctrinated attempt to insert Him into the Bible, but their hermeneutic is deceitful.

There is only one Truth, one plan of salvation.

nope you've all got tulip backwards, as for some bizarre reason your buddies seem to think irresistible grace comes first in the doctrine of tulip, then your strange buddies are making out anyone who likes tulip are like this oh and then they make out your no one special and start hating you



Well no that's not the case being saved come first, being totally depraved comes first.

Well you must think the same seeing as you don't correct them and encourage them further.

I find the imagination of your colleagues very disturbing indeed.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You like to hear yourself give long speeches or sermons in your echo chamber, heh? Couldn't distill God's love down to a couple of succinct sentences, could you? That's OK because I did that in my 20,257 to Genez. I distilled the difference down between divine love and human love.

rolleyes ... whatever Rufus ...


You asked ...

One more thing...in some earlier post you had asked me if I loved Jesus if you recall? But before I answer, you'll have to define what YOU mean by "love".

​

I responded to your request that I define what is meant by "love" Post 20,012 ... which you did not appreciate the Scripture submitted in response ... so then you requested:

That's nice. Now tell me what YOU believe biblical love is. Define it for me in your own words.

​

to which I replied Post 20,220 ...

and now the ad hominem attack against me for submitting Scripture and then telling you "in [my] own words" (as requested by you) ... because you cannot refute the central point in Post 20,012 or in Post 20,220.


duly noted and very telling that you will not answer whether you love the Lord Jesus Christ ... smh

Matthew 10:32-33 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Give me one verse in scripture that EXPLICITLY teaches that God loves the wicked. (Jn 3:16 doesn't count since you read your assumptions into the Gr. term "kosmos" which has about 9 different meanings.) I have given a whole slew of verses in the past that teach that God does not love evildoers, that he does in fact love the righteous, loves those who trust Him, loves those who fear Him, loves those who love Him and obeys Him...And hates, detests or loathes the wicked. Your argument that God's holy, righteous character requires him to love sinners doesn't hold a drop of water! God even loved his own Son on the condition of His obedience!

Matthew 5:43-48

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
.

 

[Mem]

The word "if" is not satan questioning His Sonship ... it is more in the line of "since" ... "since You are the Son of God ...". Satan did not question the deity of Jesus; satan challenged the Lord Jesus Christ to prove it through a miraculous work.

re: ei: if, whether, though, HELPS word studies suggests:
Accordingly, 1487 (ei) should not be translated "since," but rather always "if" – since the assumption may only be portrayed as valid (true, factual).

I'm not convinced that Satan posed the challenge to jump off the cliff expecting Jesus to jump but rather to show his lack of assurance in that had He not. Any possibilities about his exact motives are speculative, of course.

Re: the mystery hidden in Christ, that is, through Him, the world would be saved, if I'm not mistaken. So, I think it's safe to assume that, although they knew that He was aware of His authority over them, an evil spirit also knew Paul in a similar sense, saying, "I know Jesus, and I know Paul, but who are you?" Acts 19:15 so, that leaves a little room for the question of whether any of them knew Him in his fullness, the Purity of Him, unlike Paul, as the only begotten Son of God.

 

[cv5]

Yes, God is Love -- and his love is moral in nature. Therefore, He CANNOT love whatever is evil -- such as the hearts of God-hating sinners.

False assumption. The contrary is a Biblical fact.

[Jhn 13:26 KJV]
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.

[Jhn 13:27 KJV]
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

[Luk 22:48 KJV]
But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

****************************************************************************************

[Rom 5:6 KJV]
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

[Rom 5:7 KJV]
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

[Rom 5:8 KJV]
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

[Rom 5:10 KJV]
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

**************************************************************************************
Take note that this individual "WENT DOWN" (of his own volition) from the "place of righteousness" to the "place of sin"......and suffered the consequences. God alone (and not the fraud religionists) loved him and sought to heal and save him.....right were he was.

[Luk 10:30 KJV]
And Jesus answering said, A certain [man] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded [him], and departed, leaving [him] half dead.

[Luk 10:33 KJV]
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him],

[Luk 10:34 KJV]
And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

[Luk 10:35 KJV]
And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave [them] to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

 

[Genez]

nope you've all got tulip backwards, as for some bizarre reason your buddies seem to think irresistible grace comes first in the doctrine of tulip, then your strange buddies are making out anyone who likes tulip are like this oh and then they make out your no one special and start hating you



Well no that's not the case being saved come first, being totally depraved comes first.

Well you must think the same seeing as you don't correct them and encourage them further.

I find the imagination of your colleagues very disturbing indeed.

OK... let's take the "T" first then.

Total depravity.

If that were really an accurate concept?
God would have NOTHING to save...
Because you would be totally depraved.
Satan is totally depraved!

Better concept would be?

Born Enslaved to a vile master called the Flesh.
That way?

If God can knock off that slave master?
(He did so on the Cross)
It would make one's soul (which is what He saves) able to begin being your real self (as God intended for you to be)
as long as you keep walking in the Spirit!
It is the Holy Spirit in you who will dominate over the sin nature of the flesh.
Dominate, so you can learn to live by every word of God.

"Jesus answered... “It is written: ​

‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”​

That means one must find himself a really good pastor teacher to give him accurate teachings from the Word of God.

We just can not know enough to teach ourselves by reading the Bible for ourselves.

Not everyone wants to know that.

 

[cv5]

Yes, God is Love -- and his love is moral in nature. Therefore, He CANNOT love whatever is evil -- such as the hearts of God-hating sinners.

And, yes, God does need an object in order TO express His love. And He has had two for all eternity. (Are you smart enough to figure out who they would be?) When you say that He doesn't need an object for his love, you reduce him to the level of sinful mankind that loves ITSELF! God love, by nature, is selfless and sacrificial, unlike sinful man's love that is selfish!

Get real @Rufus . And drop the imperious self-righteous facade.

[Mat 5:45 KJV]
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

[2Pe 3:9 KJV]
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Cameron143]

Total depravity is theological concept stating that sin corrupted every part of human nature. It doesn't mean those aspects of human nature have been corrupted totally.

 

[Jordon]

OK... let's take the "T" first then.

Total depravity.

If that were really an accurate concept?
God would have NOTHING to save...
Because you would be totally depraved.
Satan is totally depraved!

Better concept would be?

Born Enslaved to a vile master called the Flesh.
That way?

If God can knock off that slave master?
(He did so on the Cross)
It would make one's soul (which is what He saves) able to begin being your real self (as God intended for you to be)
as long as you keep walking in the Spirit!
It is the Holy Spirit in you who will dominate over the sin nature of the flesh.
Dominate, so you can learn to live by every word of God.

"Jesus answered... “It is written: ​

‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”​

That means one must find himself a really good pastor teacher to give him accurate teachings from the Word of God.

We just can not know enough to teach ourselves by reading the Bible for ourselves.

Not everyone wants to know that.

A person is totally depraved without God

Your problem is you keep leaving God out of the state of a totally depraved person, (a naturally wicked heart) a person who needs saving, held captive to death, what is wrong with you man ?

The same principle applies to only God is Good in the natural man as only he can restore the the totally depraved, the naturally wicked heart).
You talk so much about enabling grace, but yet for unknown reason you don't apply it to the totally depraved (The naturally wicked heart) .

What are you so fixated on wanting to prove a naturally wicked heart has anything going for it, all by it's self.

You keep saying there would be nothing to save, but that's the point of saving, and comparing mans fallen nature to satan to prove your point, all I have to say is ridiculous, not that I want to belittle you, but what your saying is ridiculous.

 

[cv5]

re: ei: if, whether, though, HELPS word studies suggests:
Accordingly, 1487 (ei) should not be translated "since," but rather always "if" – since the assumption may only be portrayed as valid (true, factual).

I'm not convinced that Satan posed the challenge to jump off the cliff expecting Jesus to jump but rather to show his lack of assurance in that had He not. Any possibilities about his exact motives are speculative, of course.

Re: the mystery hidden in Christ, that is, through Him, the world would be saved, if I'm not mistaken. So, I think it's safe to assume that, although they knew that He was aware of His authority over them, an evil spirit also knew Paul in a similar sense, saying, "I know Jesus, and I know Paul, but who are you?" Acts 19:15 so, that leaves a little room for the question of whether any of them knew Him in his fullness, the Purity of Him, unlike Paul, as the only begotten Son of God.

"Testing". Definitely "testing". Casting doubt to see if he can pull the same scheme as he did in the garden with Eve.

But no, I do not think that Satan (or anyone evil) "knew" him in fulness, far from it. All they saw was the power and authority (that which they lust after themselves).

The believing and faithful are far more aware of His goodness and grace and truth, as well as His power. But since Jesus is infinite God, they do not fully comprehend either.

 

[Genez]

re: ei: if, whether, though, HELPS word studies suggests:
Accordingly, 1487 (ei) should not be translated "since," but rather always "if" – since the assumption may only be portrayed as valid (true, factual).

I'm not convinced that Satan posed the challenge to jump off the cliff expecting Jesus to jump but rather to show his lack of assurance in that had He not. Any possibilities about his exact motives are speculative, of course.

Re: the mystery hidden in Christ, that is, through Him, the world would be saved, if I'm not mistaken. So, I think it's safe to assume that, although they knew that He was aware of His authority over them, an evil spirit also knew Paul in a similar sense, saying, "I know Jesus, and I know Paul, but who are you?" Acts 19:15 so, that leaves a little room for the question of whether any of them knew Him in his fullness, the Purity of Him, unlike Paul, as the only begotten Son of God.

The word translated "if" in the Greek had four different class conditions.

When Satan asked Jesus... "if you be the Son of God turn these stones into bread?
What Satan said to the person knowing Greek?
Matthew 4:4 has 'if' appearing in a first class condition.
Meaning?

" If you be the Son of God (and you are) turn these stones into bread."​

​

In other words?

Satan knew Jesus could if he wanted to to turn the stones into bread.
Therefore, Satan was not trying to get Jesus to prove he was the Son of God.
That point is one of the most missed passages, and practically never understood what Satan was tempting Jesus to do.

Satan was tempting Jesus for something not considered by the average Bible translation reader.
For, if Jesus stopped being as a man? And, returned to being as God?
Immediately, it would have been disqualified Him to die as man as our substitute.

For, until Jesus completed the Cross?
He had to remain as a man in everyway to die in our place.

In Christ...

 

[Cameron143]

The word translated "if" in the Greek had four different class conditions.

When Satan asked Jesus... "if you be the Son of God turn these stones into bread?
What Satan said to the person knowing Greek?
Matthew 4:4 has 'if' appearing in a first class condition.
Meaning?

" If you be the Son of God (and you are) turn these stones into bread."​

​

In other words?

Satan knew Jesus could if he wanted to to turn the stones into bread.
Therefore, Satan was not trying to get Jesus to prove he was the Son of God.
That point is one of the most missed passages, and practically never understood what Satan was tempting Jesus to do.

Satan was tempting Jesus for something not considered by the average Bible translation reader.
For, if Jesus stopped being as a man? And, returned to being as God?
Immediately, it would have been disqualified Him to die as man as our substitute.

For, until Jesus completed the Cross?
He had to remain as a man in everyway to die in our place.

In Christ...

What about when He did miracles or forgave sins or received worship?

 

[Genez]

A person is totally depraved without God.

An unregenerate person is ENSLAVED by the depravity of his flesh.

While enslaved, many wish they were not the way they find themselves to be.
At salvation power is given (grace) to make us enabled to become more and more to be as we wish we could be.

On the other hand?

With Total depravity?
All men would desire to continue remaining as they are.
That would be total depravity!


In Christ ........... grace and peace.

 

[Rufus]

So now you want to poison me? Strewth man, you really are gloryfying God ... not!

Perhaps not. One man's poison is another's medicine. It might actually work for you.

 

[Genez]

What about when He did miracles or forgave sins or received worship?

The apostles did the same things.

That did not make them God.
That made them representative agents from God.

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” ​

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. ​

If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they ​

are not forgiven.” John 20:21-23​

.

 

[Cameron143]

The apostles did the same things.

That did not make them God.
That made them representative agents from God.

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” ​

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. ​

If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they ​

are not forgiven.” John 20:21-23​

.

The Apostles received worship?