Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

The "short explanation" is that the reference is to the Lord Jesus Christ on the one hand and satan on the other. No need to presume "the writer used the term in the corporate/collective sense!" in order to force the text to indicate something never intended by the Author.

and to clarify ... I am not a "proud, man-exalting, Adam-worshiping FWer". I am a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. I follow Him ... which is something you would know if you were not so interested in removing those who are members of His body (1 Cor 12:21).





God explains quite concisely in Gal 3:16 ...

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

This does not negate the fact that believers are joint-heirs with Christ ... which is a great and precious promise in and of itself. However, the Lord Jesus Christ is the Heir spoken of in Gen 15, Gen 17, and the promise to Him is culminated in Rev when the Lord Jesus Christ returns as King of kings and Lord of lords.





I've told you more than a few times ... Luke 3:38.





The Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14).

The genealogy in Luke traces the lineage of Jesus through Mary ... and goes all the way back to Adam, the son of God.





Yes ... there is a "third option!"

The offering made by God was sufficient to atone for the sin of Adam ... the coat provided to Adam was sufficient to cover his shame.





nope ... I have provided the third option.





Is it your claim that Eve remained in Eden?





Eve did not birth the Messiah. Adam fathered Seth. Seth is named in the genealogy of the Lord Jesus Christ ... at the end of the day, both Adam and Eve were vessels of honor.





not universal salvation, as salvation is by grace through faith.

What is revealed in the record is God's provision for remission of sin ... without shedding of blood is no remission ... which God made known the very same day Eve and Adam sinned.
.

What comes first in the post-Fall narrative: God's decree to the serpent re Eve or Eve's faith?

Moreover, since you believe that God's atoning provision was alone EFFICACIOUS, then how come Christ's atoning provision on the Cross isn't efficacious, especially since God's atoning provision in the Garden also PRECEDES any evidence of faith in either Adam or Eve. Therefore, whether you care to admit it or not, you actually do believe that God's provision in the Garden was 100% efficacious! How convenient. You just change or ignore inconvenient scriptures when it suits you.

Finally, you deny or ignore the fact that there are indeed TWO corporate bodies of people in this world: Those in Adam and those in Christ. This is a universal truth! And since Adam was the seed of the serpent then all of Adam's spiritual progeny are also the devil's offspring (Jn 8).

And LK 3:38 makes perfectly good sense since Adam was not procreated, therefore, he could not proceed from anyone except from the One who directly created him.

 

[cv5]

Rom 1:9
For G1063 God G2316 is G2076 my G3450 witness, G3144 whom G3739 I serve G3000 with G1722 my G3450 spirit G4151 in G1722 the G3588 gospel G2098 of his G846 Son, G5207 that G5613 without ceasing G89 I make G4160 mention G3417 of you G5216 always G3842 in G1909 my G3450 prayers; G4335

 

[cv5]

Rom 1:16
For G1063 I am G1870➔ not G3756 ashamed ➔G1870 of the G3588 gospel G2098 of Christ: G5547 for G1063 it is G2076 the power G1411 of God G2316 unto G1519 salvation G4991 to every one G3956 that believeth; G4100 to the Jew G2453 first, G4412 and G5037 also G2532 to the Greek. G1672

Rom 1:17
For G1063 therein G1722 G846 is G601➔ the righteousness G1343 of God G2316 revealed ➔G601 from G1537 faith G4102 to G1519 faith: G4102 as G2531 it is written, G1125 The G3588 just G1342 shall live G2198 by G1537 faith. G4102

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The gospel preached is foolishness to the natural man, who cannot understand it.

So says Paul

While Scripture does state that the "gospel preached is foolishness to the natural man" ... Scripture does not state natural man cannot understand the gospel.

You arrive at your understanding because you conflate what is written in 1 Cor 1:23 with what is written in 1 Cor 2:14.

What is written in 1 Cor 1 concerning the foolishness of preaching the gospel, 1 Cor 1:23 makes clear that only the Greeks considered the preaching of the cross as foolishness.

to the Jews the preaching of the cross was a stumblingblock because they require a sign (1 Cor 1:22) ...

to the Greeks it was foolishness because they seek man's wisdom (the wisdom of words of 1 Cor 1:17; and the wisdom of the wise of 1 Cor 1:19)

Clearly, the Jews understood and rejected – they wanted the Messiah Who is yet to come ... they were not interested in the Messiah Who came as the Lamb of God ... they want the conquering King ... and some of them are still waiting, while other Jews have embraced the Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah.

The Greeks understood and rejected – in Acts 17 they mocked Paul when they heard of the resurrection of the dead (Acts 17:32). Scripture does not say they do not understand ... they understand and mockingly believe the gospel is foolishness.
.

 

[Genez]

You forgot one: The most Humble of all God's chosen Servants: Jesus Christ in whose Cross I humbly boast.

You humbly know how to repeat buzz words that you picked up over the years.

"Humble" = a male cow that has forgotten how to moo.

Hence, "hum bull."

 

[sawdust]

While Scripture does state that the "gospel preached is foolishness to the natural man" ... Scripture does not state natural man cannot understand the gospel.

You arrive at your understanding because you conflate what is written in 1 Cor 1:23 with what is written in 1 Cor 2:14.

What is written in 1 Cor 1 concerning the foolishness of preaching the gospel, 1 Cor 1:23 makes clear that only the Greeks considered the preaching of the cross as foolishness.

to the Jews the preaching of the cross was a stumblingblock because they require a sign (1 Cor 1:22) ...

to the Greeks it was foolishness because they seek man's wisdom (the wisdom of words of 1 Cor 1:17; and the wisdom of the wise of 1 Cor 1:19)

Clearly, the Jews understood and rejected – they wanted the Messiah Who is yet to come ... they were not interested in the Messiah Who came as the Lamb of God ... they want the conquering King ... and some of them are still waiting, while other Jews have embraced the Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah.

The Greeks understood and rejected – in Acts 17 they mocked Paul when they heard of the resurrection of the dead (Acts 17:32). Scripture does not say they do not understand ... they understand and mockingly believe the gospel is foolishness.
.

Well said.

I wanted to repeat your post with bolding on the last two paragraphs for they most definitely did understand exactly what was being said but they refused to believe as they held their own understanding as being superior to what was being preached. They should have applied the following.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

grace and peace

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What comes first in the post-Fall narrative: God's decree to the serpent re Eve or Eve's faith?

First and foremost is the promise of the Messiah ... the Redeemer ... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ... foreordained before the foundation of the world.

1 Pe 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

Why do you continuously shift the focus from the Lord Jesus Christ to Eve or to the serpent.

Stand in awe of God ... of God's eternal purpose ... quit diverting your attention from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Moreover, since you believe that God's atoning provision was alone EFFICACIOUS, then how come Christ's atoning provision on the Cross isn't efficacious, especially since God's atoning provision in the Garden also PRECEDES any evidence of faith in either Adam or Eve. Therefore, whether you care to admit it or not, you actually do believe that God's provision in the Garden was 100% efficacious! How convenient. You just change or ignore inconvenient scriptures when it suits you.

Yes, I believe God's atoning provision was alone EFFICACIOUS.

faith in God's atoning provision is what causes the atonement to become effective/fulfilled in those who believe.

saved by grace through faith ... belief in the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation ...

Finally, you deny or ignore the fact that there are indeed TWO corporate bodies of people in this world: Those in Adam and those in Christ. This is a universal truth!

what you claim I deny or ignore does not equal my denying or ignoring.

And since Adam was the seed of the serpent

your claim has been refuted many times ... but you do not consider any refutation.

then all of Adam's spiritual progeny are also the devil's offspring (Jn 8).

there is no such thing as "Adam's spiritual progeny" ...

fyi ... every single person born is a descendant of Adam ... Mary, the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ was descended from Adam (Luke 3:38).

And LK 3:38 makes perfectly good sense since Adam was not procreated, therefore, he could not proceed from anyone except from the One who directly created him.

God still claimed Adam as His son in Luke 3:38 ... whether you like it or not ... whether you believe it or not ...
.

 

[Cameron143]

Someone is certainly humming alot of bull.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Well said.

I wanted to repeat your post with bolding on the last two paragraphs for they most definitely did understand exactly what was being said but they refused to believe as they held their own understanding as being superior to what was being preached. They should have applied the following.

The same goes on today when the gospel is preached ... praise God we are tasked with the preaching part and it is God Who brings the increase.

So awesome that we are labourers together with God (1 Cor 3:9)

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

grace and peace

love that verse ... and the couple verses following ...

Proverbs 3:5-7 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
.

 

[Mem]

The term translated "natural man" says something different in the Greek.

The word is psukikos.

Meaning, literally, = soulish man.

Hence... having no human spirit, only body and soul.

Unregenerate people lack a human spirit given when we are born again!

​

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." John 3:6​

Isaiah 57:16 suggests that man does have a spirit.

 

[sawdust]

Isaiah 57:16 suggests that man does have a spirit.

Believers do, unbelievers don't. The verse prior (Is.57:15) refers to those whom God is with (ie the humble spirit) which is a reference to believers. If believers had to endure the endless punishment of the wicked, they wouldn't hold out, it would be too much for them. This is what Is.57:16 is alluding to, not that every man has a spirit.

 

[Mem]

the singular Seed of the woman refers to the Lord Jesus Christ.
the singular seed of the serpent refers to the devil.

The battle is a spiritual battle about which we only know what is revealed in Scripture. We don't see the actual battle ... we only see the consequence of the spiritual wickedness in high places. God has provided for us all that is needed (the whole armor of God) in order to stand and withstand strong in faith. However, we are to put on the armor of God in order to stand, withstand, strong in faith, then pray (Eph 6:17). The actual battle takes place in a realm we know so little about. Prayer is the most underutilized tool in the arsenal of the believer. Some folks get it ... but for the most part, prayer is used as a last resort in the life of the believer. sad fact.





The Lord Jesus Christ is the sole Savior of mankind. you cannot be the sacrifice for sin as you were sinful prior to being born again.

Believers stand before God as blameless ... only because of the believer's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ ... not because we do not stumble at times. And when we stumble, we get up, we confess our sin to God, and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin.





In Matt 16 when Jesus asked His disciples "whom say ye that I am?" (vs 15) and Peter answered "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (vs 16), Jesus said "thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church" (vs 18) ... "will build" = future tense which indicates His church was not yet in existence.





so? ... greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.

Acts 2:46-47 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

How can these believers be "added" to the body of Christ since, according to you, "God's elect (Christ's Body) were in Him all eternity"?

Born again ones are added to the church, the body of the Lord Jesus Christ, at the time they are born again ... not before ... and definitely not in eternity past.
.

Job 26 answered Bildad's claim, that man cannot be righteous, with what seem to be sarcasm saying,

2“How you have helped the powerless
and saved the arm that is feeble!

3How you have counseled the unwise
and provided fully sound insight!

4To whom have you uttered these words?
And whose spirit spoke through you?


And verse 4 brings to mind the verse, 'do you not know that you are the temple...?" and also the significance of Jesus' cleansing of the temple by driving out the moneychangers, along with Jesus' parable of the strong man.
Those thoughts coupled with the, 'to whom you yield yourselves...," verse is pretty convincing that we were designed as houses... which compels me to meditate on the spiritual significance of the 'many mansions' Jesus spoke of in His Father's kingdom of which He goes to prepare us...

I couldn't help but note these thoughts generated as I catch up on the thread.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Believers do, unbelievers don't. The verse prior (Is.57:15) refers to those whom God is with (ie the humble spirit) which is a reference to believers. If believers had to endure the endless punishment of the wicked, they wouldn't hold out, it would be too much for them. This is what Is.57:16 is alluding to, not that every man has a spirit.

Unbelievers do have a spirit; it's just separated from God, ie, dead, but it's very much alive.

 

[Cameron143]

Believers do, unbelievers don't. The verse prior (Is.57:15) refers to those whom God is with (ie the humble spirit) which is a reference to believers. If believers had to endure the endless punishment of the wicked, they wouldn't hold out, it would be too much for them. This is what Is.57:16 is alluding to, not that every man has a spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:11.

 

[Mem]

Believers do, unbelievers don't. The verse prior (Is.57:15) refers to those whom God is with (ie the humble spirit) which is a reference to believers. If believers had to endure the endless punishment of the wicked, they wouldn't hold out, it would be too much for them. This is what Is.57:16 is alluding to, not that every man has a spirit.

Then, with what does anyone believe? have hope? Look closely at Isaiah 57's vv. 10-11

10You are wearied by your many journeys,
but you did not say, “There is no hope!”

You found renewal of your strength;
therefore you did not grow weak.

These verses are speaking to the wicked and the v. 11 suggests that this is because of God sustaining these, hope and strenghth, in them, in spite of their condition.

 

[cv5]

Rom 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[HeIsHere]

Rom 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Notice it does NOT state:

Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by uniquely special imparted saving faith which comes after regeneration without the deeds of the law.

 

[cv5]

While Scripture does state that the "gospel preached is foolishness to the natural man" ... Scripture does not state natural man cannot understand the gospel.

You arrive at your understanding because you conflate what is written in 1 Cor 1:23 with what is written in 1 Cor 2:14.

What is written in 1 Cor 1 concerning the foolishness of preaching the gospel, 1 Cor 1:23 makes clear that only the Greeks considered the preaching of the cross as foolishness.

to the Jews the preaching of the cross was a stumblingblock because they require a sign (1 Cor 1:22) ...

to the Greeks it was foolishness because they seek man's wisdom (the wisdom of words of 1 Cor 1:17; and the wisdom of the wise of 1 Cor 1:19)

Clearly, the Jews understood and rejected – they wanted the Messiah Who is yet to come ... they were not interested in the Messiah Who came as the Lamb of God ... they want the conquering King ... and some of them are still waiting, while other Jews have embraced the Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah.

The Greeks understood and rejected – in Acts 17 they mocked Paul when they heard of the resurrection of the dead (Acts 17:32). Scripture does not say they do not understand ... they understand and mockingly believe the gospel is foolishness.
.

I think that is the most appropriate view, among a couple of other good candidates.
The key of course is the ACTION aspect.
Whether they "receive" or "receive not".
Either is possible predicated upon the desire/willfulness of the hearer.

 

[HeIsHere]

Unbelievers do have a spirit; it's just separated from God, ie, dead, but it's very much alive.

Absolutely, 100%

When they use Lazuras being raised from the dead as some type of analogy for total inability it is a true streeeeeeeeetch!!

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Absolutely, 100%

When they use Lazuras being raised from the dead as some type of analogy for total inability it is a true streeeeeeeeetch!!

It's like they make up any excuse to keep from having to take out the trash. Or something like that lol