Saved by faith alone?

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Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18
 
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Reactions: mailmandan and Cameron143
mailmandan said:
After leaving the Roman Catholi church, I came to believe what I believe by studying scripture. No one particular church indoctrinated me to believe what I believe now.
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Whatever happen to you in the Roman Catholic Church is not germane to this discussion. You have been told this before.

mailmandan said:
If works "in addition" to faith become the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation, then those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation, which would mean that we merit salvation, at least in part. You can't have it both ways.
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That "If" is the boogeyman in your head that causes your blindness.

Prove the "If" then we can talk.
 
It is not anywhere stated in Scripture that man was created with a will that is free. Man was created good and he disobeyed God, which God knew man was going to do. Man was then enslaved to sin. The real issue is what Scripture says of the natural, unregenerated man = he is a slave to sin, is at enmity with God, a lover of darkness and defined as darkness itself, full of evil, opposed to the spiritual things of God, refusing to come into the light, does not seek for God, cannot come to God on his own, hostile to/at enmity with God and incapable of obeying and/or submitting to God, nothing good dwells in his flesh which serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. He is blinded by the god of this world and the gospel is foolishness to him, as he can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God which are discerned only through the Spirit. He has an incurably wicked heart which needs replacing and people essentially claim this unregenerated man is able to believe with that God-hating heart. Those who promote free will essentially reject what is said of the natural man and instead ascribe to him qualities and characteristics and abilities that only the regenerated spiritually alive man is capable of. They claim a lot of things that do not align with Scripture, such as: everyone hears, the gospel is not hid, man is not blind to the truth, man is not such a bad guy and can as a bad tree produce the good fruit of faith (since none are good, no not one according to Scripture, but FWers mock, reject, contradict, and deny such Scriptural truths). There are a lot of Pelagian heretics here. We have also been told faith is not a gift from God even though Scripture says all good things come from God. Some also conflate being spiritually dead with being physically dead but then are dishonest about doing so even though they repeatedly tell those they disagree with on this issue to go preach in cemeteries. They have even told us that the gospel is not a spiritual matter, and 1 Cor 2:14 is a favourite verse of theirs to rewrite. I believe the Bible.

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The free will camp assumes, with no supporting text and contrary to many verses that evidence the opposite, that the man of flesh is free to choose, and will believe, that which he can neither receive nor comprehend, and to which he is inherently opposed with his uncircumcised heart of stone. There is simply no getting around the fact that this is the core of their belief, and it flies in the face of what Scripture actually teaches about the natural man who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness refusing to come into the light, blinded to truth and under the power and influence of Satan: he serves the law of sin which brings forth fruit unto death, not life. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, his incurably wicked heart cannot be changed. He hates God, rejects the light, and hears the gospel message as foolishness. Praise the Lord if He has set you free!
 
Magenta said:
Chosen of God unable? From where do you get these gross misrepresentations?

You now come across like you are completely ignorant of the very argument of free will you staunchly support.

Oh, yes, the Bible teaches that man is a slave to sin. I think there may be a glimmer of hope for you yet...

Though it is more likely you are a Pelagian heretic.
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I suspect much of your confusion is based on your lack of understanding of the word "coercion".
 
Lamar said:
I suspect much of your confusion is based on your lack of understanding of the word "coercion".
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I suspect your inability to be honest negates true discussion.

Your propensity is to repeatedly misrepresent and put forward logical fallacies.
 
Lamar said:
If the chosen of God are "UNABLE" to chose to follow God but follow anyway how is this not coerced?

If mankind cannot choose to not be in slavery, how is this not coercion?

Slavery by nature is coercion.

If God is picking who will be in His kingdom and those chosen to be in it cannot refuse or accept, is this not coercion?

You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.
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Not coerced; enabled.

Suppose everyone is in a room, but the handle for the door is too high to reach. None can get out.
Now suppose a step stool is placed in some of the rooms.
Enabled; not coerced.
 
Cameron143 said:
Not coerced; enabled.

Suppose everyone is in a room, but the handle for the door is too high to reach. None can get out.
Now suppose a step stool is placed in some of the rooms.
Enabled; not coerced.
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I don't think he will understand because he is one of those ones who denies being called
or chosen, preferring to mock such Biblical truths as to who comprises true believers.

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John 10 verses 27-28 My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.
:)
 
Cameron143 said:
Not coerced; enabled.

Suppose everyone is in a room, but the handle for the door is too high to reach. None can get out.
Now suppose a step stool is placed in some of the rooms.
Enabled; not coerced.
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So mankind is able to chose or not to chose God? I think Magenta will have an issue with this.

P.S. Who put the handle so high?
 
Lamar said:
So mankind is able to chose or not to chose God? I think Magenta will have an issue with this.

P.S. Who put the handle so high?
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It's a parable. It isn't designed to teach every aspect of every doctrine. The parable is only meant to distinguish the difference between coercion and enablement.
 
Lamar said:
So mankind is able to chose or not to chose God? I think Magenta will have an issue with this.

P.S. Who put the handle so high?
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More misrepresentation. What is it about being enabled do you despise so much?

Please try choosing to have more integrity in your responses.
 
NightTwister said:
I have no further desire to discuss this with you. I agree with TULIP. You think that's heresy, which means you think I'm not a Christian. I guess we can't be brothers after all. Grace and Peace.
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The problematic part of the doctrine of election (DOE) is not the term “elect”, which simply means “choose souls to be saved”, but rather it is whether God determines that only some sinners will be saved and that the majority of humanity are condemned to hell in accordance with what is known as the Calvinist TULIP dogma, which may be described as follows:

T – total depravity, meaning souls are unable to exercise sufficient MFW to seek salvation.

U – unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell.

L – limited atonement, meaning that Christ died to pay the penalty of sin only for elect souls.

I – irresistible grace, meaning that elect souls cannot resist or refuse God’s will for them to be saved.

P – perseverance of the saints, meaning that the elect cannot repudiate their salvation and commit apostasy, because God perseveres in keeping them saved.

The viewpoint opposed to TULIP may be termed Moral Free Will (MFW) and described as follows:

M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral condition called faith, which is manifested as seeking God’s righteousness or salvation, which in turn presumes sufficient human volition even for sinners to make them morally accountable.

F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is not irresistible, which means sinners are accountable and justly condemned when they do not repent and accept Christ’s atonement for their sins

W – Faith is almost synonymous with Will, but volition focuses on faith as cooperation with God (or not), and cooperating with God by accepting His grace is NOT meritorious or working to earn heaven or salvation by obeying moral laws.

Two Scripture pearls disprove TULIP without reading Romans 1-11:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

“God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” (1Tim. 2:3b-4)

Thus, the T in TULIP is Totally wrong, the U in TULIP is Unscriptural, the L in TULIP is a Lie, the I in TULIP Ignores much Scripture, and the P in TULIP denies the Permissive will of God that allows MFW and thus the Possibility of apostasy and makes humans accountable for all sins.
 
Lamar said:
Whatever happen to you in the Roman Catholic Church is not germane to this discussion. You have been told this before.
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It actually has a lot to do with this discussion.

That "If" is the boogeyman in your head that causes your blindness.
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The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe the gospel. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Prove the "If" then we can talk.
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If works which "follow" salvation through faith in Jesus Christ were the basis or the instrumental means by which we obtained salvation then, we would be saved by good works instead of for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) This is common sense.
 
GWH said:
The problematic part of the doctrine of election (DOE) is not the term “elect”, which simply means “choose souls to be saved”, but rather it is whether God determines that only some sinners will be saved and that the majority of humanity are condemned to hell in accordance with what is known as the Calvinist TULIP dogma, which may be described as follows:

T – total depravity, meaning souls are unable to exercise sufficient MFW to seek salvation.

U – unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell.

L – limited atonement, meaning that Christ died to pay the penalty of sin only for elect souls.

I – irresistible grace, meaning that elect souls cannot resist or refuse God’s will for them to be saved.

P – perseverance of the saints, meaning that the elect cannot repudiate their salvation and commit apostasy, because God perseveres in keeping them saved.

The viewpoint opposed to TULIP may be termed Moral Free Will (MFW) and described as follows:

M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral condition called faith, which is manifested as seeking God’s righteousness or salvation, which in turn presumes sufficient human volition even for sinners to make them morally accountable.

F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is not irresistible, which means sinners are accountable and justly condemned when they do not repent and accept Christ’s atonement for their sins

W – Faith is almost synonymous with Will, but volition focuses on faith as cooperation with God (or not), and cooperating with God by accepting His grace is NOT meritorious or working to earn heaven or salvation by obeying moral laws.

Two Scripture pearls disprove TULIP without reading Romans 1-11:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

“God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” (1Tim. 2:3b-4)

Thus, the T in TULIP is Totally wrong, the U in TULIP is Unscriptural, the L in TULIP is a Lie, the I in TULIP Ignores much Scripture, and the P in TULIP denies the Permissive will of God that allows MFW and thus the Possibility of apostasy and makes humans accountable for all sins.
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Grace and Peace
 
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