Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

Why are they asking, if they are not a believer?

Because it is what they are told. "you're not one of the chosen? too bad, too sad." I've heard a number of atheists ask why they deserve Hell. You haven't heard? Maybe you should get out more.

Adam got them into a mess they could do nothing about and God did nothing to help.

So much for the God who enters into a fallen world to save His creation, who takes no pleasure in death but deliberately creates individuals for the sole purpose of destruction.

 

[Mwestton]

Many have probably realised i don't think we can exercise free will, even think it's impossible for us to. Won't explain why i think it's an impossiblility for us yet, think it's useful for some to express why they think it exists first.

I have no doubt we have and can make choices throughout life, however, think our options are far more restricted than most realise. What do you think?

Even though Eve was tempted and gave in yes she was in free will. Adam has a choice and gave in. Free will. Even in choosing faith to live by or not. Free will. I see free will as choice. We make a choice. We are influenced by demons yes. We are led by the holy Spirit yes. But we have choices. The only thing I have a hard time believing with but Indo believe it..is when we get saved and have faith.a.lot of scripture says by Jesus ' No one can come to me unless the father draws him. We don't come unless it's a divine intervention from God. Faith and grace are gifts. That's the only thing I don't believe free will exists. If I'm wrong someone let me have it. I like to know more and grow in truth.

 

[sawdust]

Nonsense! Give me one instance in scripture where God kept anyone out of heaven who wanted to be there with Him. Judas is a great example. Judas' eternal destiny was determined by God in eternity, yet Judas, who was the immediate cause of his own demise, willingly complied with God's eternal decree. I don't see anywhere in scripture where Judas complained about not being given a fair shake, or about how the devil made him do it, or God made him do it! Quite the opposite! Judas owned his sin, guilt and shame.

So when they are headed for destruction their will is involved but not when headed for salvation. Gotcha.

 

[Rufus]

Because it is what they are told. "you're not one of the chosen? too bad, too sad." I've heard a number of atheists ask why they deserve Hell. You haven't heard? Maybe you should get out more.

Adam got them into a mess they could do nothing about and God did nothing to help.

So much for the God who enters into a fallen world to save His creation, who takes no pleasure in death but deliberately creates individuals for the sole purpose of destruction.

So...the promised Messiah in Gen 3:15 is a big Nothingburger in your world?

And when those self-righteous atheists question their worthiness of hell, did you quote Ps 14:1 or 53:1 to them to show them that God is just?

 

[Doll]

According to your "sovereignty" schtick, it is God who is the end cause for people going to Hell.
They had no say in it.

For if he (as you claim) makes the totally depraved to believe?
Why then, are some more totally depraved than others?

Sovereignty schtick?
"For if he (as you claim) makes the totally depraved to believe?"

In one post you just confessed you don't believe what Scripture teaches.

Not many like you are that blatant.
Yet,we still know them.

 

[Rufus]

So when they are headed for destruction their will is involved but not when headed for salvation. Gotcha.

Yes...those predestined to Destruction made that choice freely since God withheld his saving grace from them which leaves them to their own evil devices. Conversely, those destined for Glory were made willing by God's efficacious grace. Tough concepts to understand, heh?

 

[Doll]

So when they are headed for destruction their will is involved but not when headed for salvation. Gotcha.

Yes.
The natural mind has a will of its own because the things of God are foolishness to it.
Only when God intervenes does Salvation make sense.

 

[Doll]

Yes...those predestined to Destruction made that choice freely since God withheld his saving grace from them which leaves them to their own evil devices.

They don't even know they're there.

Conversely, those destined for Glory were made willing by God's efficacious grace. Tough concepts to understand, heh?

For some,yes. That's Good will too.

"To you it was given to understand. But to them it was not given."

 

[sawdust]

Learn how to read! I never said what you believe is efficacious...rather your beloved, cherished, vaunted "freewill" effectuated your salvation. God's grace only saved you AFTER you exercised your "freewill". If it was before, according to your man-exalting theology, God would have "forced" you to believe.

You said my willingness to believe is what saved me. I showed you my believing changes nothing. It is you who are unable to comprehend what the simplest mind can.

I am saved upon believing not because I will myself to be saved but because God has willed believers to be saved. It is His will that saves, not mine.

The only difference between you and me is you think you have to be saved from spiritual death first (regenerated) before you can believe because you think the soul (heart) is corrupt from birth. You simply cannot/will not see the corruption is in the flesh and that grace comes to all men before that corruption starts to play on the soul which is how men can be drawn. Some, when shown the light, desire it and are drawn by the grace of God because that is normal, it is the very thing God created the soul for, to be in relationship with Him.

 

[sawdust]

Yes.
The natural mind has a will of its own because the things of God are foolishness to it.
Only when God intervenes does Salvation make sense.

Which is what we have been saying but the difference in the argument is how much does God have to do by grace for a man to see the light? That's the question.

 

[sawdust]

If it was before, according to your man-exalting theology, God would have "forced" you to believe.

The irony is, according to your philophosy, He saves you before you believe but you argue that is not being forced. But then you can't see being made spiritually alive (regeneration) is being saved from spiritual death. That's the salvation you have when you don't have salvation.

 

[sawdust]

But Christ only sets sinners free AFTER on the condition they make their choice to repent and believe. And since you FWers attach conditions to God's sovereign grace, then you cannot possibly be saved by grace that by definition can have no conditions attached to it. God cannot OWE his grace to anyone who thinks they have fulfilled conditions to access it.

Strewth. Either you're a moron without a brain in your body and therefore are saved by default or you are willingly obtuse and incorrigible.

Either way I'm not wasting any more time on explaining it to you again.

I will say this one last thing.

God determined to save believers. It is to Himself, His own integrity to keep His word, that He owes His grace to do what He sent it out to do in the world.

 

[Genez]

God and humans alike only rescue the helpless -- not the self-reliant or self-sufficient people.

Agreed.

 

[sawdust]

So...the promised Messiah in Gen 3:15 is a big Nothingburger in your world?

And when those self-righteous atheists question their worthiness of hell, did you quote Ps 14:1 or 53:1 to them to show them that God is just?

Which includes you but God did something for you, just not the other guy. Or are you trying to tell us you're not one of those who did no good, that you're really a nice guy which is why God saved you and not them.

You were that self righteous atheist once. You worship the "pick and choose god" who pays no mind to the hearts of men.

 

[sawdust]

Yes...those predestined to Destruction made that choice freely since God withheld his saving grace from them which leaves them to their own evil devices. Conversely, those destined for Glory were made willing by God's efficacious grace. Tough concepts to understand, heh?

So you were forced. Glad to see you finally admit what we all knew.

 

[Genez]

The irony is, according to your philophosy, He saves you before you believe but you argue that is not being forced. But then you can't see being made spiritually alive (regeneration) is being saved from spiritual death. That's the salvation you have when you don't have salvation.

It is easy for them to tells us what they believe.
They just repeat what they were told in their Calvinistic churches.

But, they begin squeezing very hard to get out why they believe what they do.

They are suffering from spiritual constipation.

Properly digested theology has the needed substance to keep things moving along smoothly when explaining it.
Those not able to be understanding it?
They react....
React and mistakenly accuse the other of being smug and self satisfied.
When actually it is called... 'having contentment.'

Contentment comes after having been well taught, and being able to know with understanding what one believes.

 

[Magenta]

Even though Eve was tempted and gave in yes she was in free will. Adam has a choice and gave in. Free will. Even in choosing faith to live by or not. Free will. I see free will as choice. We make a choice. We are influenced by demons yes. We are led by the holy Spirit yes. But we have choices. The only thing I have a hard time believing with but Indo believe it..is when we get saved and have faith.a.lot of scripture says by Jesus ' No one can come to me unless the father draws him. We don't come unless it's a divine intervention from God. Faith and grace are gifts. That's the only thing I don't believe free will exists. If I'm wrong someone let me have it. I like to know more and grow in truth.

There are quite a few Pelagian heretics here who deny that man is blinded, captive to the will
of the devil, a slave to sin, lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light because his deeds
are evil and he is opposed to the spiritual things of God with his God-hating incurably wicked
heart. Incurably wicked meaning man cannot change himself. Only God can.

It is not anywhere stated in Scripture that man was created with a will that is free. Man was created good and he disobeyed God, which God knew man was going to do. Man was then enslaved to sin. The real issue is what Scripture says of the natural, unregenerated man = he is a slave to sin, is at enmity with God, a lover of darkness and defined as darkness itself, full of evil, opposed to the spiritual things of God, refusing to come into the light, does not seek for God, cannot come to God on his own, hostile to/at enmity with God and incapable of obeying and/or submitting to God, nothing good dwells in his flesh which serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. He is blinded by the god of this world and the gospel is foolishness to him, as he can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God which are discerned only through the Spirit. He has an incurably wicked heart which needs replacing and people essentially claim this unregenerated man is able to believe with that God-hating heart. Those who promote free will essentially reject what is said of the natural man and instead ascribe to him qualities and characteristics and abilities that only the regenerated spiritually alive man is capable of. They claim a lot of things that do not align with Scripture, such as: everyone hears, the gospel is not hid, man is not blind to the truth, man is not such a bad guy and can as a bad tree produce the good fruit of faith (since none are good, no not one according to Scripture, but FWers mock, reject, contradict, and deny such Scriptural truths). We have also been told faith is not a gift from God even though Scripture says all good things come from God. Some also conflate being spiritually dead with being physically dead but then are dishonest about doing so even though they repeatedly tell those they disagree with on this issue to go preach in cemeteries. They have even told us that the gospel is not a spiritual matter, since 1 Cor 2:14 is a favourite verse of theirs to rewrite. I believe the Bible.

The free will camp assumes, with no supporting text and contrary to many verses that evidence the opposite, that the man of flesh is free to choose, and will believe, that which he can neither receive nor comprehend, and to which he is inherently opposed with his uncircumcised heart of stone. There is simply no getting around the fact that this is the core of their belief, and it flies in the face of what Scripture actually teaches about the natural man who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness refusing to come into the light, blinded to truth and under the power and influence of Satan: he serves the law of sin which brings forth fruit unto death, not life. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, his incurably wicked heart cannot be changed. He hates God, rejects the light, and hears the gospel message as foolishness. Praise the Lord if He has set you free!

 

[Cameron143]

Pretty sure that contentment comes when the Lord is one's Shepherd and one does not want...Psalm 23:1.

 

[cv5]

Yes.
The natural mind has a will of its own because the things of God are foolishness to it.
Only when God intervenes does Salvation make sense.

The "natural man" Calvinist straw man argument has been thoroughly debunked already on this thread multiple times. Dozens and dozens.

 

[Genez]

There are quite a few Pelagian heretics here who deny that man is blinded, captive to the will
of the devil, a slave to sin, lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light because his deeds
are evil and he is opposed to the spiritual things of God with his God-hating incurably wicked
heart. Incurably wicked meaning man cannot change himself. Only God can.

If you can't refute em?
Mislabel them!

And, then wipe your hands, and walk away.

"Pelagian" can refer to the adjective and noun forms of a British monk named Pelagius or his theological doctrine, Pelagianism. The central tenet of Pelagianism is the denial of original sin, believing that Adam's sin did not taint human nature and that humans are born innocent and possess the inherent free will to choose good or evil and achieve perfection without needing divine grace to overcome their own fallen nature

No one here fits that description!


Lazy lazy lazy... dogmatism, is all you got.
And some pictures.