Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

According to your "sovereignty" schtick, it is God who is the end cause for people going to Hell.
They had no say in it.

For if he (as you claim) makes the totally depraved to believe?
Why then, are some more totally depraved than others?

Nonsense! Give me one instance in scripture where God kept anyone out of heaven who wanted to be there with Him. Judas is a great example. Judas' eternal destiny was determined by God in eternity, yet Judas, who was the immediate cause of his own demise, willingly complied with God's eternal decree. I don't see anywhere in scripture where Judas complained about not being given a fair shake, or about how the devil made him do it, or God made him do it! Quite the opposite! Judas owned his sin, guilt and shame.

 

[BillyBob]

Well, the difference between many here and myself, is that I spend a couple of hours per day (other times 3 or 4) reviewing PhD level Bible lectures. So frankly, I know exactly what I am talking about, even if you do not.

And yes, definitely, Jesus chose the twelve. Because they heeded the call, did not drop out, passed the testings and did what the faithful always do.....they "held on". So those were they whom He chose. You know......those that He knew in His omniscience actually BELIEVED Him.

Uh huh. That's right. Jesus chose those who BELIEVED Him. And had the courage to stick around.

And yep ......the Calvinists got that choosing business completely wrong. As they do most every other Biblical principle. Because you see they are the Biblically illiterate dropouts and flunkies.

Good luck to you. And look out. There are Biblically illiterate frauds fakes and con-men out there who are gonna eat the unwary for lunch.

That's exactly why we all hang on to every word that you speak!

 

[cv5]

Nonsense! Give me one instance in scripture where God kept anyone out of heaven who wanted to be there with Him. Judas is a great example. Judas' eternal destiny was determined by God in eternity, yet Judas, who was the immediate cause of his own demise, willingly complied with God's eternal decree. I don't see anywhere in scripture where Judas complained about not being given a fair shake, or about how the devil made him do it, or God made him do it! Quite the opposite! Judas owned his sin, guilt and shame.

You have no biblically relevant accurate idea whatever of the reason, dynamics and purpose of the Judas saga. Zero.

Calvinists never get it right. Garbage in garbage out.....

 

[cv5]

That's exactly why we all hang on to every word that you speak!

This is impossible given your less than 20 minute attention span hard limit.

 

[Rufus]

Yea @Rufus , you must understand that those He taught intensively CHOSE to remain at His feet to TRULY know.....

And.....DID NOT DROP OUT OR FLUNK THE COURSE as He was teaching as so many others CHOSE to do.

Do you really need me to provide you with relevant proof texts? I mean if you choose to resist and deny this obvious Biblical reality, then why should I waste time on a flunky dropout?

What "you must understand" is how totally clueless you are. The reason you give in your first sentence above does not square whatsoever with Mat 13:10ff. In fact, in v. 10, the disciples point-blank ask Jesus why He speaks to the people in parables. So, how's that for "relevant proof"? Someday, look at Jesus' answer.

Btw, did those "He taught...who chose to remain at His feet" also choose to make Jesus their Messiah?

 

[Magenta]

Praise God for choosing the Disciples who were specific in carrying out the works started by Christ Himself.

Were you not foreknown, chosen, called, and justified? Or are you still part of the world and unable to receive the Spirit of truth?

The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. The world does not recognize Him. No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. The one who loves God is known by God. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it. Whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

 

[Cameron143]

1 Corinthians 12:3...no one calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rufus]

You have no biblically relevant accurate idea whatever of the reason, dynamics and purpose of the Judas saga. Zero.

Calvinists never get it right. Garbage in garbage out.....

Which describes your lame response perfectly. It would probably take a convoy of septic tank pumpers just to remove half the garbage in your attic.

 

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 12:3...no one calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12 verse 2-3 & from Romans 8 verse 9 ~ You know that when you were pagans, you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I inform you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. You are controlled by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you. The Spirit of truth proceeds from the Father to testify about Jesus. From John 15 verse 26

 

[Rufus]

Wrong again ... I expect nothing less from you.

I believe it will rain today. Do you think my believing is what makes it rain? In the same way my believing Christ is Saviour of the world did not save me, God's grace did.

So sad how you have the capacity to not understand the most basic of things. I have some ear drops to help clean out the wax I can pass on to you.

Learn how to read! I never said what you believe is efficacious...rather your beloved, cherished, vaunted "freewill" effectuated your salvation. God's grace only saved you AFTER you exercised your "freewill". If it was before, according to your man-exalting theology, God would have "forced" you to believe.

 

[Rufus]

There are no opportunities without freedom.

But Christ only sets sinners free AFTER on the condition they make their choice to repent and believe. And since you FWers attach conditions to God's sovereign grace, then you cannot possibly be saved by grace that by definition can have no conditions attached to it. God cannot OWE his grace to anyone who thinks they have fulfilled conditions to access it.

 

[Rufus]

Absolutely correct. We are indeed free to avail ourselves of God's gracious opportunity provided in Christ Jesus. That thought which my post is intended to convey in no uncertain terms.

But.....will the Calvinists "get it"?
Given the endless series of strikeouts, prospects are indeed grim.

You mean...just like Adam was "free to avail" himself of the opportunity to chow down on the fruit of the "tree of life" in the Garden?

 

[cv5]

Which describes your lame response perfectly. It would probably take a convoy of septic tank pumpers just to remove half the garbage in your attic.

Well here is a job for you @Rufus buddy:
Exegete for us the relationship between the Johannine comma, the book of James, Genesis 15 & 22, and the astounding profundity of the core thesis of Romans 3:19-31 and also how all of this ties into the GWT judgement.

This is mid-level difficulty maybe a bit higher.
Go.

Alternatively you could expend time cuddling with Bible tweet Barbie and Bible tweet Ken.

Choose wisely.....

 

[Magenta]

Learn how to read! I never said what you believe is efficacious...rather your beloved, cherished, vaunted "freewill" effectuated your salvation. God's grace only saved you AFTER you exercised your "freewill". If it was before, according to your man-exalting theology, God would have "forced" you to believe.

The logical outworking of what these Pelagian heretics present with all their insistence on the will being free is that they cured their incurably wicked heart and chose to believe the very things the Bible says they were opposed to while a slave to sin and lover of darkness, unable to obey or submit to God. While in the realm of the flesh they were able to please God even though the Bible says that is not possible, just as in their theology as a bad tree they were able to produce the good fruit of faith to overcome the world even though Scripture says it is those born of God who overcome the world, because the world cannot receive the Spirit of truth (even though Jesus said it was not possible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit. Flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death). Even so, they figured it all out on their own and then after making the right decision because they are after all so smart, then they received the Spirit of truth.

 

[Rufus]

Just because many natural man are prideful doesn't mean every natural man is full of pride and still not saved. I know several people without God who literally make the average Christian look like they should be going to Hell instead of themselves.

Since those in the flesh do not have the Spirit, there is nothing to restrain sinners' pride. The most "moral" human beings on the planet (from a horizontal perspective) live in sin 24/7, since they neither love God or believe Him. Those who don't love God are accursed. And those who have no faith cannot possibly please God. Hell will be loaded with "morally good" but spiritually DEAD people, since God is not the God of the dead!

 

[Magenta]

Since those in the flesh do not have the Spirit, there is nothing to restrain sinners' pride. The most "moral" human beings on the planet (from a horizontal perspective) live in sin 24/7, since they neither love God or believe Him. Those who don't love God are accursed. And those who have no faith cannot possibly please God. Hell will be loaded with "morally good" but spiritually DEAD people, since God is not the God of the dead!

Someone (I will not say who) recently told me that "without faith it is impossible to please God" only applied to what we eat.

Of course I disagree and believe it is much more widely applicable.

 

[Rufus]

Well here is a job for you @Rufus buddy:
Exegete for us the relationship between the Johannine comma, the book of James, Genesis 15 & 22, and the astounding profundity of the core thesis of Romans 3:19-31 and also how all of this ties into the GWT judgement.

This is mid-level difficulty maybe a bit higher.
Go.

Alternatively you could expend time cuddling with Bible tweet Barbie and Bible tweet Ken.

Choose wisely.....

Good advice, you insufferable bore!

 

[Rufus]

Someone (I will not say who) recently told me that "without faith it is impossible to please God" only applied to what we eat.

Of course I disagree and believe it is much more widely applicable.

Which is a MARK of FWT! FWers all but dismiss sin and its devastating, addictive, enslaving effects upon the human race.

 

[Rufus]

Psalm 36 verses 1-4 ~ An oracle is in my heart regarding the transgression of the wicked man: There is no fear of God before his eyes. For his eyes are too full of conceit to detect or hate his own sin. The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and well-doing. Even on his bed he plots wickedness; he sets himself on a path that is not good; he fails to reject evil .

That kind wicked man would be considered a mere outlier (fluke, freak accident, etc.) by FWers among the rest of humanity.

 

[Rufus]

Sure it is. Both drawing and calling are ubiquitous, God showing no partiality.

However, one may volitionally refuse the call/drawing, leading to the Isaiah 6:10 judgement.

Alternatively, others linger but eventually fall away as "dropouts" and "flunkies". They are unserious and Jesus has no use for them in ministry.

However some DO NOT choose to "drop out" and DO "pass the test". Now to THESE who "hold on" (like Jacob) in persistent faith, to THEM Jesus CONTINUES to reveal the truths of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

Easy as pie. All settled now?

Everyone here should be able to confirm my assertions with truckloads of proof texts. I'm too busy with some major engineering projects to fill in the blanks. Thanks.

Not according to Rom 8:28-30 or John 6. God neither draws all men w/o exception to himself nor does He internally/effectually call all men w/o exception to himself. He draws and calls his Christ's friends, sheep and children of promise for whom His Son died.