No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[lrs68]

Says who? If you can receive it the tribes refer to attributes of the nation of Christ as a whole.

Here is another "hear" and "see" example in Revelation:

An angel says to John "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”

So, one would expect to see a woman.

But immediately after this:

"And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God."

But John sees a city.

And then he writes what he sees:

Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west."

Because the "city" is people, we should understand these as descriptions of the attributes of the faithful in Christ.

The Gentiles were grafted in because there's first always a place for the Jews. Replacement Theology is a lie from the pits of Hell and requires twisting of Scripture to believe.

Not one Verse ever proclaimed the Tribes of Israel as spiritual. Not a single one.

 

[rogerg]

The spiritual Israel has no Jew or Greek so there are no Tribes.
The physical Israel has the Tribes because it's Jews only.

Read @Aaron56's post.

 

[rogerg]

The Gentiles were grafted in because there's first always a place for the Jews. Replacement Theology is a lie from the pits of Hell and requires twisting of Scripture to believe.

Not one Verse ever proclaimed the Tribes of Israel as spiritual. Not a single one.

Christians became the people of God:

[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Not one verse?

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[Aaron56]

The Gentiles were grafted in because there's first always a place for the Jews. Replacement Theology is a lie from the pits of Hell and requires twisting of Scripture to believe.

Not one Verse ever proclaimed the Tribes of Israel as spiritual. Not a single one.

Settle down. No one is discussing anything from the pit of hell.

There is a lot of imagery in Revelation. I showed you three patterns of "hear and see". It would seem the burden is on you to show how the tribes are NOT spiritual given that they do not line up with the actual tribes.

You'll need something better than "because I like the Jews".

 

[Aaron56]

Also, please show me where replacement occurs below:

 

[lrs68]

Settle down. No one is discussing anything from the pit of hell.

There is a lot of imagery in Revelation. I showed you three patterns of "hear and see". It would seem the burden is on you to show how the tribes are NOT spiritual given that they do not line up with the actual tribes.

You'll need something better than "because I like the Jews".

They are the sons of Jacob and Joseph. That is very specific.

 

[lrs68]

Christians became the people of God:

[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Not one verse?

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

I am not disputing that I am disputing that the Tribes of Israel refers to the Gentiles which is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Aaron56]

They are the sons of Jacob and Joseph. That is very specific.

We know the twelves tribe from the OT. In one account (Genesis 49) the twelves tribes are addressed by Jacob:

"And Jacob called unto his sons, and said..."

So then the record shows to whom he spoke:

Reuben
Simeon
Levi
Judah
Zebulun
Issachar
Dan
Gad
Asher
Naphtali
Joseph
Benjamin

And then this is recorded:

"All these are the twelve tribes of Israel"

If we use the scriptures to interpret the scriptures we clearly see that is NOT what we have in Revelation 7: there is no Dan and Menasseh is added.

A lot of people have added their own doctrine to explain the differences but their ideas are extra-biblical... used to support a per-conceived notion to preserve a fleshly, carnal Israel.

From Paul and Peter and John (ironically Jews) we should already expect that the lineage of God's people was always secured in promise and not the flesh.... by faith.

 

[lrs68]

We know the twelves tribe from the OT. In one account (Genesis 49) the twelves tribes are addressed by Jacob:

"And Jacob called unto his sons, and said..."

So then the record shows to whom he spoke:

Reuben
Simeon
Levi
Judah
Zebulun
Issachar
Dan
Gad
Asher
Naphtali
Joseph
Benjamin

And then this is recorded:

"All these are the twelve tribes of Israel"

If we use the scriptures to interpret the scriptures we clearly see that is NOT what we have in Revelation 7: there is no Dan and Menasseh is added.

A lot of people have added their own doctrine to explain the differences but their ideas are extra-biblical... used to support a per-conceived notion to preserve a fleshly, carnal Israel.

From Paul and Peter and John (ironically Jews) we should already expect that the lineage of God's people was always secured in promise and not the flesh.... by faith.

I said Joseph's son is added but we know that would happen when Jacob blessed his sons and Joseph's before dying.

 

[rogerg]

I am not disputing that I am disputing that the Tribes of Israel refers to the Gentiles which is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

You asked me that question already and I replied that the spiritual tribes ARE NOT comprised only of Gentiles, and I never said they were. I said they consist of Jews AND Gentiles - all the redeemed regardless of earthly lineage - it is spiritual lineage that matters not earthly lineage.

 

[lrs68]

You asked me that question already and I replied that the spiritual tribes ARE NOT comprised only of Gentiles, and I never said they were. I said they consist of Jews AND Gentiles - all the redeemed regardless of earthly lineage - it is spiritual lineage that matters not earthly lineage.

I understand what you are saying but nowhere in the Bible does it mention that the 12 Tribes of Israel are spiritual. It only claims physical.

 

[rogerg]

I understand what you are saying but nowhere in the Bible does it mention that the 12 Tribes of Israel are spiritual. It only claims physical.

We are told they are spiritual tribes by verse 14:3 in which we are informed they are the redeemed from the earth, and in 5:9, taken out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation - not only from Israel - they are not Jews alone, but out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation. Therefore, all the redeemed are of the tribes so the tribes MUST be spiritual and not physical - not to mention the points that @Aaron56 brought up.
Okay, we've repeated ourselves now multiple times making the same points, so I think we're at loggerheads with this. No need to continue it further. If you should come to see what I'm saying, or I what you're saying, we can continue then.

[Rev 5:9 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

[Rev 14:1 KJV] 1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

[Rev 14:3 KJV] 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[lrs68]

We are told they are spiritual tribes by verse 14:3 in which we are informed they are the redeemed from the earth, and in 5:9, taken out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation - not only from Israel - they are not Jews alone, but out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation. Therefore, all the redeemed are of the tribes so the tribes MUST be spiritual and not physical - not to mention the points that @Aaron56 brought up.
Okay, we've repeated ourselves now multiple times making the same points, so I think we're at loggerheads with this. No need to continue it further. If you should come to see what I'm saying, or I what you're saying, we can continue then.

[Rev 5:9 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

[Rev 14:1 KJV] 1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

[Rev 14:3 KJV] 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The physical Jews who were blinded and deafened fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah that ultimately rejected Jesus will turn around and be the ambassadors for Jesus in the Tribulation. It's 100% physical natural born Jews fulfilling the 144k within the 12 Tribes of Israel.

 

[Ouch]

It's the truth

Sad, you really believe someone can be saved without even believing in JESUS.

I noticed no scripture backing that up, why because it's not true and not in HIS word.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

JESUS said repent,

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

JESUS said can't enter without being born of water and of spirit!!!

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You say you don't even have to know him and you say it's the truth???

Example of us being filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter tells them that is what happens when a person is filled.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

The first message how to be saved.

Acts 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Today, to be saved we need to believe, repent, get baptized in JESUS name for remission of our sins and we still need JESUS to fill us with HIS spirit like HE did HIS disciple in Acts 2:4.

 

[DavidLamb]

Paul said the natural man is totally unable to do God's will perfectly, not that he was totally unable to hear the voice of the spirit of truth and follow it as best he could.

Paul's words about the natural man appear in this verse:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

Not, "The natural man is totally unable to do God's will perfectly," but he does not receive the things of God, and cannot know them.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Paul's words about the natural man appear in this verse:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

Not, "The natural man is totally unable to do God's will perfectly," but he does not receive the things of God, and cannot know them.

That means the gospel, which is foolishness to the natural man. But that he can be taught about God, ie, learn of the father, which Christ clearly said unregenerate men can do, is clearly stated in this:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:18-20​

​

There's only one way unregenerate men can learn the truth of the father who is spirit. From the spirit of truth

 

[DavidLamb]

That means the gospel, which is foolishness to the natural man. But that he can be taught about God, ie, learn of the father, which Christ clearly said unregenerate men can do, is clearly stated in this:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:18-20​

​

There's only one way unregenerate men can learn the truth of the father who is spirit. From the spirit of truth

We seem to be saying similar things, that unsaved man, in and of himself, cannot learn the truth of the gospel. Unsaved man needs God to act for him to hear, learn and understand the gospel.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

We seem to be saying similar things, that unsaved man, in and of himself, cannot learn the truth of the gospel. Unsaved man needs God to act for him to hear, learn and understand the gospel.

God didn't act for me when I heard his voice when I was unsaved. I hungered and thirsted for righteousness and he spoke to me and I followed his voice as best I knew how. Then one day he spoke to me that what I was reading in the bible was the voice I had been following. I was persuaded and believed, and then I was saved.

 

[DavidLamb]

God didn't act for me when I heard his voice when I was unsaved. I hungered and thirsted for righteousness and he spoke to me and I followed his voice as best I knew how. Then one day he spoke to me that what I was reading in the bible was the voice I had been following. I was persuaded and believed, and then I was saved.

The same is true for me, except that I certainly don't believe that God didn't act for me. I owe my salvation entirely to Him.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The same is true for me, except that I certainly don't believe that God didn't act for me. I owe my salvation entirely to Him.

If someone was drowning, crying out for help and someone threw them a rope that they had to swim to very hard through strong waves and currents to reach, and fight off sharks along the way, was the person who threw the rope responsible for the other person's salvation? Of course he was. Is the work of the person who saved diminished by the drowning person's work? Ridiculous.