Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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posthuman said:
being saved does not mean we will have no troubles on earth nor that we will never physically die.

so why is it any wonder the figure of Him Who was to come lived out his earthly days humbling bearing the chastisement of his Father?
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seeing as Adam was the first man no doubt the first mistake is less punishable than the second, and since God was spending more time with any natural man than he did with adam to get his message across for the next natural yep he could of become humble, but did he realise he was dead in his nature in his sins, does anyone realise at first ?

So with that said was he humble at first because if we believe he was deceived in the garden then we have to believe he still thought he was alive after eating, because they both ate thinking they would live.
 
Jordon said:
seeing as Adam was the first man no doubt the first mistake is less punishable than the second, and since God was spending more time with any natural man than he did with adam to get his message across for the next natural yep he could of become humble, but did he realise he was dead in his nature in his sins, does anyone realise at first ?

So with that said was he humble at first because if we believe he was deceived in the garden then we have to believe he still thought he was alive after eating, because they both ate thinking they would live.
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The question that needs to be asked:
If Adam was "totally depraved", how then was he able to confess and repent?

Adam chose to sin (a wrong choice) of his own free will.....WHILE HE WAS SINLESS AND PERFECT in full fellowship with God.

And THEN, Adam chose to do the RIGHT THING.....by preventing Eve from eating from the tree of life, and refusing to eat from the tree of life himself AFTER HE FELL. And then did the RIGHT THING by testifying TRUTHFULLY (as did the Woman) at the trial of Satan.

Which of course demolishes this "total depravity" nonsense once and for all.
 
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cv5 said:
The brilliance and stupendous spiritual and intellectual prowess and insights of Adam are off the charts.
He resisted the full brunt of Satan's attacks time and time again......and was not deceived. Never deceived. Ever.
Which of course is an attribute that MADE HIM A TYPE OF CHRIST. Among others.

1Ti 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

The archangel Michael on the other hand demurred when faced with Satan's seductive lies......

Jde 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

I wager that most men today would fall like dominoes under the same kind of assault.
And BTW, Judas-Satan likely had ALL of the disciples "on his side" when he dared to rebuke the Lord here. Easy peasy.

[Jhn 12:4 KJV]
Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], which should betray him,

[Jhn 12:5 KJV]
Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

Mat 26:8
But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?
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Adam was not deceived by what ? Satan in the garden, well that contradicts scripture, because if Adam was not innocent why the life time punishment. And if he was not deceived by satan that means he watched his wife get deceived ?

So what you must be saying the. Is Adam was somewhere else in the garden when eve ate and then eve went to sin where where in the garden and gave him the fruit.

Or what else is it saying for Adam not to have been deceived, go on why do you think titus is saying he was not deceived ?

It's nuts because you say Adam ate the fruit so he could save his wife's life or something like that is he but deceiving himself there ?
 
cv5 said:
The question that needs to be asked:
If Adam was "totally depraved", how then was he able to confess and repent?

Adam chose to sin (a wrong choice) of his own free will.....WHILE HE WAS SINLESS AND PERFECT in full fellowship with God.

And THEN, Adam chose to do the RIGHT THING.....by preventing Eve from eating from the tree of life, and refusing to eat from the tree of life himself AFTER HE FELL. And then did the RIGHT THING by testifying TRUTHFULLY (as did the Woman) at the trial of Satan.

Which of course demolishes this "total depravity" nonsense once and for all.
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he never confessed it was a worthless confession,

He never repented either,
Why would he need to confess if he wasn't deceived ?

See it's not adding up us it.

He lost his innocence called his wife nothing and then blamed her.

That's not repentance
 
Jordon said:
Adam was not deceived by what ? Satan in the garden, well that contradicts scripture, because if Adam was not innocent why the life time punishment. And if he was not deceived by satan that means he watched his wife get deceived ?

So what you must be saying the. Is Adam was somewhere else in the garden when eve ate and then eve went to sin where where in the garden and gave him the fruit.

Or what else is it saying for Adam not to have been deceived, go on why do you think titus is saying he was not deceived ?

It's nuts because you say Adam ate the fruit so he could save his wife's life or something like that is he but deceiving himself there ?
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Here is some precursory background lectures to help you "get the picture" buddy.
But there is much more attendant to truly grasp and master the topic.
Maybe a couple of hundreds of hours minimum to get up a head of steam.
Then thousands upon thousand of hours of lectures and study left to go......;)

Adam And Eve... What really happened?

1st Adam vs. The 2nd Adam. They're more alike than you might think

Adam, Eve & Satan. Do you really think you know this story?

Deep Teaching On Adam & Eve. This is the stuff you're not supposed to hear

Did Adam Blame Eve? It's not what you may have thought

Eve Is Dying Right In Front of Adam. If you were Adam, what would you do?

Satan, Why Did You Pick A Snake? Would Adam have been fooled by a snake?

Why A Tree Of Death? What caused the Tree of Death to be put in the garden of Eden?

Genesis 2 and 3... NOT Seeker Sensitive! That's why most churches don't teach this
 
Jordon said:
It was Adams Job to protect the woman, and adams confessions and answer was, this woman you gave me give me some and I ate it.
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yes God had 'given her to him' and he was responsible to keep her - - and God said to him, after his confession, 'because you listened to her voice'

so we know that when he confessed to God that she, to whom God had entrusted her, are, and then gave to him - - there was a space of time in between in which a conversation took place. that conversation was private between them and is not recorded for us.

we also know Adam was not deceived, so we know what she said to him was not deception. she did not try to trick him, and he knew everything the serpent said to her was lies. so we know she spoke the truth to him - and from her confession to God, we know also she knew when she spoke to her husband that she had been deceived.

since God says he listened to her, instead of to His command, we know that when he spoke of God having given her to him, he was not blaming her or blaming God. if he had been, God would have addressed those things in His judgment.
he was saying that he made his decision on the basis of his responsibility to her, so God judged him on the basis of putting his responsibility to her above his responsibility to God - - essentially, having left his Father in order to cleave to his wife.


what did she say to him?

imagine you have just eaten poison, you know you were horribly deceived, you know you are dying, you know you cannot be cured, and you know and you come to your husband. he is not poisoned, he is not confused or deceived, he is not dying.
you don't know how much time you have but the longer time goes on, the more your flesh and your mind corrupt.
what do you say to him?
 
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posthuman said:
imagine you have just eaten poison, you know you were horribly deceived, you know you are dying, you know you cannot be cured, and you know and you come to your husband. he is not poisoned, he is not confused or deceived, he is not dying.
you don't know how much time you have but the longer time goes on, the more your flesh and your mind corrupt.
what do you say to him?
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what do you say to our Betrothed Husband, The Lamb of God, when you sin?

what could you say that would make Him decide to lay down His life for you?
 
Jordon said:
Did Adam still think he was fully alive when he called his wife eve ?
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clearly Adam believed this:

John 11:25-26​
I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. ​
​
his renaming of 'out of man' to 'life' at this moment indicates a tremendous intelligence, wisdom and faith.
 
Jordon said:
your not going start getting annoyed again are you, do you realise your asking us all to believe Adam was saved in the blink of an eye that's took most people half there life ?
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Salvation is an heavenly, eternal thing, not an earthly, timelike thing. i don't think it makes mathematical sense to try measure it the way you are here with Augenblicken or Halbwertszeiten, and in fact, ((@Mem)) that is cutting to the core reasons why this overall discussion about God's election and human volition with regards to Salvation is so difficult and has been a constant debate for a couple thousand years.

we are equivalently trying to measure an 11 dimensional object with a 2d cubit rod.
 
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posthuman said:
Salvation is an heavenly, eternal thing, not an earthly, timelike thing. i don't think it makes mathematical sense to try measure it the way you are here with Augenblicken or Halbwertszeiten, and in fact, ((@Mem)) that is cutting to the core reasons why this overall discussion about God's election and human volition with regards to Salvation is so difficult and has been a constant debate for a couple thousand years.

we are equivalently trying to measure an 11 dimensional object with a 2d cubit rod.
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You mustn't ignore, dear bro, the very salient fact that FWers also reject, contradict, rewrite, and outright
deny a multitude of verse in order to cling to their vain philosophically based self-exalting theology.
 
Jordon said:
did he realise he was dead in his nature in his sins, does anyone realise at first ?
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he had spent his entire life up to that point with zero sin and zero death in him.
i have no doubt he was hyper aware of the consequences playing out in his body and mind.

he had also just had a conversation with his wife in a situation that had never been repeated on earth until Jesus Christ appeared and began calling His sheep to Himself - - he was a man in whom there was no sin and no death, talking to someone he loves incredibly deeply, in whom there was sin and death.

none of us have ever been in that position. all of us have sinned and all of us have death in us.

so Adam had seen a fallen human from the perspective of an unfallen one, someone he knew intimately both before and after she fell, and knew what it was like to not have death before death entered him.

he is going to be far more aware of the change than we are.
 
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posthuman said:
he had spent his entire life up to that point with zero sin and zero death in him.
i have no doubt he was hyper aware of the consequences playing out in his body and mind.

he had also just had a conversation with his wife in a situation that had never been repeated on earth until Jesus Christ appeared and began calling His sheep to Himself - - he was a man in whom there was no sin and no death, talking to someone he loves incredibly deeply, in whom there was sin and death.

none of us have ever been in that position. all of us have sinned and all of us have death in us.

so Adam had seen a fallen human from the perspective of an unfallen one, someone he knew intimately both before and after she fell, and knew what it was like to not have death before death entered him.

he is going to be far more aware of the change than we are.
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Fantastic insight and analysis buddy.
I sure hope that's enough to convince even the staunchest detractor (@Rufus ) of how and why Adam is the preeminent type of Christ.

Truly he is absolutely unique in this regard......:unsure:
 
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Magenta said:
You mustn't ignore, dear bro, the very salient fact that FWers also reject, contradict, rewrite, and outright
deny a multitude of verse in order to cling to their vain philosophically based self-exalting theology.
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my goodness sis, if i live long enough :LOL:
 
posthuman said:
like, when you drink rancid milk so you tell your bro, eeewwwww this is ghastly and will kill you, here taste it?

seems really unconvincing :unsure:
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Adam hearkened unto the voice of his wife but does that does not mean they had any type of conversation
about the matter. "I'm fine, it's tasty, here, have some." Adam may not have said a word. It's all conjecture.
 
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