No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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If they cooperated with God's drawing, then they were saved (Matt. 23:37),
and after they are saved they may desire to remain saved (Heb. 10:19-36).
Falsify Matt. 23:37 to your hearts content,
but I recommend not kicking against the goad/GW!
I have not yet read anything in this thread beyond the OP.
I see a serious contradiction in your statements. If no man has the ability to believe on Christ, how can the 'If and when' in your last statement ever occur?
In your first statement, you have disregarded the last part of what you made bold in the middle of the verse. Within the point of view which you seem to be trying to express, man does have the ability to come to Christ "when the Father draws him"; however, you are not even allowing for that in your statement. Perhaps, you meant to say that no man has the innate ability to believe on Christ?
In your last statement, why do you say 'willingly' after saying (in effect) that no man has a freewill?
“the credit goes to Gods Power”
of course he’s the creator of our existing life he always gets the glory for every breath we breath and day we live.
The issue is some of you conflate hesring the gospel and believing what he actually said and so obeying God and what he said will save us in the gospel willingly …… with somehow stealing glory from God
It’s not stealing any credit by hearing what he said and believing it’s true and following what he said ….. it’s showing him respect and honoring his expressed Will to all humanity and the blessing he promises those who believe him and obey will come to pass every time they do that.
Gods glory and credit and salvation will be found here for anyone who believes and responds to him
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
That is gods offer of peace and mercy and goodwill towards mankind through his son Jesus Christ who the gospel is all about. It doesn’t matter who you were or where you’ve been it doesn’t even matter what you’ve been through the offer is the same for all creation .
To accept it and repent and believe and act upon his words offering blessing and promise in the gospel is in no way trying to remove credit from God , it honors a Father when his children obey his Will that he’s clearly expressed in the gospel and all of his promises therin are valid to those who they are given to and all who believe.
It glorifies God to do good to obey him it doesn’t take it from him
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 5:16 KJV
to continually rebel against his Will expressed to us without care , this has no glory in it for God and Infact it provokes him to anger and wrath and even vengeance against them not that they were made for that but they provoked him with thier continual rebellion …..
when he’s the source of the gospel he sent out promising salvation to all creation who believes.
The credit for believing in Christ goes to God as His power is the cause or His Grace and Spirit is.
A goad, but not THE goad, and I love GW, so I am pleased that my initials also mean God's Word.
Unless resisted per the Scripture you dis.
IOW, the drawing is the gathering in Matt. 23:37.
Your problem seems to be that you do not understand man's inability and lack of desire to please God. Man loves the things of this world, and has no desire for God until brought to new life.
There are many places in scripture which tell us that there is nothing good in man.
However, hearing His word and the work of the Spirit can cause a change in us, a spiritual change. This is God drawing us to Him.
-----------------------------
You do not breathe so as to make yourself alive, but the fact you are alive is evidenced by your breathing. Breathing does not precede life, but life is what always precedes, and produces, breathing.
You do not believe so as to make yourself alive, but the fact you have been made alive by God is evidenced by your believing. Believing does not precede life, but life is what always precedes believing.
Without physical life there can be no breathing, and without spiritual life there can be no believing.
** MDB**
I do not believe that there has ever been a man who has not resisted to some degree, as they are being drawn by God's word. It is our nature to cling to the things of this world. However, you act as if man can override the purpose of God, and that is simply untrue.
God's word can be used as a stumbling block, to leave man without excuse.
But, the truth is that His people will hear, His people will be changed, His people will come to Him. All others will remain in disobedience!
It is He who does the sifting. . . . .
“Your problem seems to be that you do not understand man's inability and lack of desire to please God. “
incapable yeah
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Hebrews 11:5-6
The gospel should be changing the way some of you guys think
“Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.”
1 Thessalonians 4:1 KJV
but “ we can’t we aren’t able not capable apostle Paul it’s not our fault we just aren’t able we were created wrong we have no choice
”“By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.”
Hebrews 13:15-16
“but we can’t do that we’re not capable “…. claiming man isn’t capable of doing what God has said for him to do is crippling faith . That’s why no one’s experiencing the freedom promised through obeying the gospel they think they can’t ….. that’s not gods message to his children his message is you can by faith and that is freely offered to all people by the gospel he sent tonus all for our salvation
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
Without faith no one can be saved and please god . But faith to save is freely offered to all creatures by the gospel
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
awe probably should move on from the “ no one’s capable “ idea it leads nowhere good
Yeah all credit for everything good goes to god lol that doesn’t change the fact that we have to do what he said will save us . Obeying god isn’t stealing glory or credit that’s a fatal flaw in thought .
“ if I think i need to obey him … I’m trying to steal credit from him “ bit if I think i am not capable of doing anything he said then somehow I’m giving him credit and glory “
Faulty thinking . God gets credit and glory always . It’s an erroneous argument to take the position if we do the things he said we need to do this somehow takes the credit from him and gives it to us . Just another snare
You cant resist Gods Power, that would make you greater than God
Obeying/Believing comes from God. Man by nature is dead to God and have a nature of disobedience Eph 2:1-3
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
By nature we are disobedient and worthy of wrath, cannot obey
Not claiming never to sin, but being raised similarly to Timothy per 2Tim. 3:15 I always believed in God/Jesus and never rebelled
against my parents' and church's teaching--which is God's purpose A for parenting. However, I have always felt free to become an atheist, and I have always believed God wants everyone to hear and become His people (1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16)--which is what my
Baptist upbringing taught.
God empowers people to resist His love from A&E to you (freely resisting belief in Matt. 23:37) and me (free to disbelieve like you).