Just as Rufus posted earlier
John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
NIV
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
NIV
Some believe the serpent had sex with the woman.
Not sure that is what he believes.
just did not want to pursue it with him for that reason alone.
I was saying that is what you believe.
How is it others can understand what I say but you can't? Even my agnostic son gets what I'm saying better than you do.
The problem ain't me mate.
you said it in relation to salvation. As you understand salvation
No, your post along with others simply imply that His grace enables us to decide. Thus you try to put an in GRACE.What sort of argument is that? Have I ever said the grace we receive comes from anyone other than God?
<smh>
Unbelievable!
Oh the irony.
Sorry but it just doesn't fit!
Someone hears the Gospel being given.
What is grace accomplishing for that person while that is taking place?
i don't believe that is the bruising of the heel, rather, the crushing of the head.
the cross is the victory, not a lost battle.
whether would not is equivalent to could not, in terms of Judas, is equivalent to asking whether John 17:12 is a failure on the part of Christ to keep Judas.
note that there also, it is Christ - not they themselves - Who kept them.
so when you ask whether Judas would not believe means whether he could not, you are asking of God ((Jesus)) can fail.
so yeah i asked the same question instead of answering, hoping it was clear that the obvious answer to the reframed question is the obvious answer to both. i did this to further the conversation, not to hinder it.
i have the ineffable view of Christ. God cannot fail. there is your clear answer.
ergo, it is just as impossible that Christ could sin as it was that Judas could do anything other than throw the 30 pieces of silver and kill himself.
I'm trying to understand why some people feel so threatened by the idea that man can choose to follow God
I assume you are speaking of an unsaved person.
If that person is an elect of God, and if it is the appointed time that he is to become saved, then, upon hearing, he is regenerated by the Spirit and placed into Christ. This does not take place due to any good thing in that person, because there are none that are good. It is not done to enable him to make a good choice. It is a merciful act by God Himself, and it is not merited by any act of man. It is an undeserved gift!
the thread is not about that, the debate has been mainly about mankind being able to save themselves by there own free will, a long with people declaring mankind has freedom free will in there fallen condition, to choose to be saved.
Unfortunately there isn't any little box you could fit this debate into.
Its more about grace saving man than mans choice in there fallen state which in there fallen state they don't have. Nope it God that chooses you,
Then it's all about God's sovereignty being ruler over all creation, that is being undermined by the idea that mankind in there fallen condition has freedom or free will to choose when ever they want to be saved.
Then theres the debate that mankind has his own faith in there fallen condition.
Nope the free willers won't even answer if faith is a gift.
The list is endless so I suggest you put your little box away
You were relating it to your requirement for salvation. It is not my belief that our faith can bring salvation - not even close - never happen -so why would I bring it up and discussed it in that context. You were the one who said our faith is the one requirement for salvation demanded by the Father. I didn't say, nor do I believe, that it is.
Can we be done with this now?
Because they have been brainwashed by preaching that lists various passages that were made to fit what the point is being made..
They see themselves are ultra humble for accepting that God made them get saved, because God is Sovereign and Righteous,
and can do nothing wrong...
They have been assuming a superior position because they believe they can see what they were told, and others can not.
After all that? They would feel utterly foolish and stupid to realize that there is a rational solution for God getting around the depravity of man and making God (by grace) able to use their soul's intent for believing in Jesus Christ.
We have been seen as the stupid free willers, thinking we can do something to save ourselves.
Not realizing, it is God who saves those who want to believe Jesus is real, and granting us that wish when He saves us.
grace and peace ........
They see themselves are ultra humble for accepting that God made them get saved, because God is Sovereign and Righteous,
and can do nothing wrong...
They have been assuming a superior position because they believe they can see what they were told, and others can not.
After all that? They would feel utterly foolish and stupid to realize that there is a rational solution for God getting around the depravity of man and making God (by grace) able to use their soul's intent for believing in Jesus Christ.
We have been seen as the stupid free willers, thinking we can do something to save ourselves.
Not realizing, it is God who saves those who want to believe Jesus is real, and granting us that wish when He saves us.
grace and peace ........
Because that would invalidate the doctrine of Christ as Savior. If Christ did not satisfy every last requirement for salvation, including choice, then He couldn't be the Savior, and therefore, we wouldn't have a Savior. If we didn't have a Savior, then salvation could not be by grace. Without grace, the whole gospel falls apart, and we're left only with our works for salvation which would never succeed.
The gospel is 100% built upon a Savior, and a Savior that fully satisfied the Father's requirements. That Savior is Christ.
[1Co 3:11 KJV] 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
You mean His grace enables us to be fully human?
What an outlandish idea!
We were non-entities before God saved "nothing", to make us something. .
In your world God has to do everything. In the real world God gives us a choice.
So is it a way for those who think this way to absolve themselves of reponsibility? It must be that. Since God is doing everything they can't be held responsible for anything.