Unfortunately, you are wrong. It IS the physical act of baptism. That's obedience. No different than the physical act of Naaman in 2 Kings 5 where he dipped 7 times in the filthy waters of the river Jordan as was told he must do to cleanse his leprosy. Did the act of dipping in the river 7 times cleanse him? Yes! Was it cleaning of his flesh by the water? No! But nevertheless, he was ckeansed by dipping in it as commanded. That's obedience.
Saved by faith alone?
- Thread starter Lamar
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There are definitely some lexical decisions that need to be made beyond the meaning of eperōtēma. Context tells us a lot. Peter's been touching on conscience by word since 1Pet2:19. One of the questions re: "appeal" or "request" assuming we settle on this, is it an appeal of a good conscience, for or from or ?? a good conscience, or???
Let's see if @PaulThomson and maybe @mailmandan want to chime in. I know PT likes to work in the language, as do I. It looks like you do as well.
The physical act of baptism is a work (obedience which follows salvation through faith is works) and we are not saved by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 etc..).
Now in regard to Naaman, in the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. Read it in (Luke 5:12-15). No water is found here.
Secondly, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.
The Bible uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation by water baptism. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation by water baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).
The imputer of a credit or a debt is the one recording it in the ledger. The imputer determines whether the item is a gain or a loss. The imputer is God. God is truth and records what is truly a debt as a debt, and what is truly a credit as a credit. He does not record what is truly a debt into the credit column. He can cancel debts from the debit column, if he is willing to bear the cost himself of doing so. God considers our faith to be a creditable item, so records our instances of faith in the credit column. There is no evidence that God credits his own faith regarding things we have not believed ourselves to our credit column.
I do note that you have completely deflected from dealing with my actual points in my post.
Right, God is the imputor. What did He impute?
Not trying to dodge anything. If you will tell me what you believe I avoided, I'll address it.
Believe what you like, but one thing's for certain. You absolutely cannot be saved until you're baptized into the body of Christ. Believe it, deny it, it doesn't matter. The words of scripture are clear and what you believe won't change
Peter says that salvation is not achieved by merely washing dirt off our skin. Washing the skin is not sufficient to save. That would be like the pharisees washing the outside of pots but leaving the inside full of filth. Salvation requires an internal washing. This is what Peter is saying baptism is. That is, an appeal to God for a clean conscience. How can one be whole/saved without having a clean conscience toward God? Why is the person being baptised appealing for a good conscience through baptism, if they already have a clean conscience.
Would Jesus have been perfectly righteous and suitable as a sinless Saviour, if He had neglected baptism? Why did He say to John that it was necessary for Him to be baptised to fulfil all righteousness? Jesus was commanded to be baptised by the Father, and to refuse would have been rebellion and would have made his offering of Himself to God unacceptable. But some seem to think Jesus' disciples can refuse baptism and yet their offering of themselves to God still be acceptable.
It says that God imputed Abraham's faith onto the credit side of Abraham's ledger as righteousness. It does not say that God imputed His Own faith to Abraham.
Aramaic
... by a decree (בִּגְזֵרַת) of watchers (עִירִין) this matter (פִּתְגָמָא) and by a word (וּמֵאמַר) of holy ones (קַדִּישִׁין) is a demand (שְׁאֵלְתָא) to the intent ( עַד־דִּבְרַת) that (דִּי) may know (יִנְדְּעוּן ) the living ( חַיַּיָּא) that rules (דִּי־שַׁלִּיט) a most high (עִלָּאָה) in a kingdom (בְּמַלְכוּת) of men (אֲנָשָׁא) and to whomsoever (וּלְמַן־דִּי) he wills (יִצְבֵּא) he gives it (יִתְּנִנַּהּ) and a basest (וּשְׁפַל) men (אֲנָשִׁים) he is setting up (יְקִים) over it (עֲלַהּ׃)
This matter is by a decree of watchers and by a word of holy ones, a request to the intent that the living may know that a Most High rules in a kingdom of men and He gives it to whom He wills, and He is setting up a most base one of men over it.
LXX
Dan 4:17 by the joint decree (διὰ συγκρίματος) of the watchers (ιρ), the word (ὁ λόγος) and the spoken word (καὶ ῥῆμα) of holy ones: (ἁγίων) the earnest request (τὸ ἐπερώτημα) so that ( ἵνα) they might know (γνῶσιν, aorist active subjunctive) the living (οἱ ζῶντες ) that (ὅτι) a lord (κύριός) is (ἐστιν) the most High (ὁ ὕψιστος) of the kingdom (τῆς βασιλείας) of the men (τῶν ἀνθρώπων), and (καὶ) to whomsoever (ᾧ ἐὰν) he might give ((δόξῃ aorist active subjunctive) he will give (δώσει) it (αὐτὴν) and (καὶ) the basest (ἐξουδένημα) of men (ἀνθρώπων) he raises up (ἀναστήσει) upon them (ἐπ᾽ αὐτήν).
the word by the joint decree of the watchers, the spoken word of holy ones, the earnest request so that the living might know that the Most High of the kingdoms of men is Divine, and He will give it to whomsoever He decides He might give it. Even the basest of men He raises up upon it.
eperOtaO: to ask upon, to beseech, implore. Not a pledge given, but a request made. the prefix epi intensifies the asking of erOtaO into an earnest pleading for something, often for an answer to a question. I think we agree that translating it as a pledge of a good conscience has no forensic support.
We agree that a person's faith is their faith. I doubt we agree on the source of faith.
I'm going to go with eperōtēma in 1 Peter 3:21 meaning petition or prayer.
Which antitype also now saves us, immersion, not a putting off of filth of flesh, but a petition of a good conscience into God through [the] resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21
This is based on the Aramaic שְׁאֵלָה (H7595), used in Daniel 4:17, corresponding to the Hebrew שְׁאֵלָה (H7596), which is used in passages that, except for the Judges verse, describe requests to superior authorities (Judges 8:24; 1 Samuel 1:17, 27, 2:20; 1 Kings 2:16, 20; Esther 5:6, 7, 8; 7:2, 3; 9:12; Job 6:8+; Psalm 106:15) .H7596 שְׁאֵלָה sh'elah (sheh-ay-law') n-f.
שֵׁלָה shelah (shay-law') [1 Samuel 1:17]
1. a petition.
Petition in 1 Peter 3:21 just works better for me than request does.
Yes, context tells us everything we need to know: Victory/salvation is already won for those who are credited/imputed/deemed by God as sharing the righteousness of Christ because of their saving faith in him as Lord (Romans 3:21-5:1), which means repenting of sin beginning with un/disbelief (John 3:16, Matt. 7:20, Eph. 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31, etc.) and wanting to allow God's Holy Spirit to love everyone more and more through us (Rom. 5:5, Eph. 3:16-19, John 13:35, 1John 4:7-21, etc.) as we grow toward spiritual maturity/moral perfection (Phil. 3:12-16, Eph. 4:11-24) in heaven.
Do we agree that Paul is saying that Abraham's faith was considered by God to be Abraham's righteousness?
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. There is only one baptism that saves and places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism and not water baptism.
Jesus clearly drew the line in the sand on who will not be condemned and who will be condemned. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The internal washing and having a good conscience before God is signified but not procured in baptism. What saves a person from sin and a guilty conscience is not some external rite, but to get into the ark of safety, the Lord Jesus Christ by faith in His death, burial and resurrection.
In regard to Jesus getting water baptized in Matthew 3:13-15 and fulfilling all righteousness, this was a necessary part of the righteousness He secured for sinners. Water baptism is a work of righteousness and it's not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which refers to spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Water baptism is the picture of the reality. The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."
Nobody said anything about refusing to be water baptized. Baptism put it in its proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ as all good works must be. This does not remove good works (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation. (Acts 10:43-47; Ephesians 2:10)