Is it ok to be once saved always saved.

[Everlasting-Grace]

I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote a works based false gospel strongly oppose OSAS which remains a major red flag for me.

most of them appose calvinism, and since they think for some odd reason OSAS is a calvinist formed doctrine, they feel they must fight it with all their heart and soul.

Its like the fight again trump and MAGA.. you can not allow even one thing they believe to stand,,

 

[studier]

I actually prefer to use the terms "eternal security of the believer" or "preservation of the saints." (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) OSAS carries too many negative connotations thanks to folks who falsely accuse believers in the OSAS camp of promoting a license for immorality.

Thanks for the reminder. Appreciated.

On the surface I think we're at least similar here. I agree there is an eternal security for a Christian. We may or may not agree on what a "Christian" is.

Just to make certain we're speaking the same language, as I understand you, when you use the word - "nominal" - you mean "in name only" and are using this word to describe those who did or do not truly believe, so not truly Christians, correct?

Do you agree that biblically we have: unbelievers - both professed unbelievers & nominal (pseudo) believers; immature believers - both infant/child believers & maturing believers; mature believers? Would you rephrase or retitle these in some way and/or add to or subtract from them so we can be using the same language?

 

[mailmandan]

Thanks for the reminder. Appreciated.

On the surface I think we're at least similar here. I agree there is an eternal security for a Christian. We may or may not agree on what a "Christian" is.

Just to make certain we're speaking the same language, as I understand you, when you use the word - "nominal" - you mean "in name only" and are using this word to describe those who did or do not truly believe, so not truly Christians, correct?

Do you agree that biblically we have: unbelievers - both professed unbelievers & nominal (pseudo) believers; immature believers - both infant/child believers & maturing believers; mature believers? Would you rephrase or retitle these in some way and/or add to or subtract from them so we can be using the same language?

You are welcome. Now we should be able to agree on what a Christian is. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. One who has received Jesus Christ through faith and is born again. Nominal = name only Christian. Not a genuine believer. A pseudo Christian is not a genuine Christian. I believe we biblically have: unbelievers - both professed unbelievers and nominal (pseudo) believers; immature believers - both infant/child believers and maturing believers; mature believers? It sounds like we may be on the same page here.

 

[Mem]

Well hold on now he may have a point, the verse I posted and got tricked by my eyes does seem to say that it is possible for one to fall away
in fact it seems to be pretty clear about it look at this verse

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt

I mean what else could it be saying?

Vv. 1-3 Introduces the chapter context to be a call to maturity.

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,a and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms,b the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits.

I think the introduction and the conclusion of the chapter gives us an idea of what vv.4-6 are speaking toward.
Vv. 19-20 concludes, "19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus our forerunner has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.

With that in mind, Hebrews 6:4's "who have tasted the heavenly gift" compels me to believe the writer is speaking of those who have accepted the heavenly gift of salvation.

Are you familiar with the trick to lick a cupcake to claim it as yours so that your brother wouldn't touch it?
Well, in the case of the licked cupcake, it is impossible to unlick it and so, an entirely new cupcake would have to be baked for your brother while the baker looked on sneering at you with contempt because you stole the cupcake intended for you brother... because you didn't realize that the next desert course was an entire layer cake.

So, I don't think its speaking about falling away as much as it is speaking about worrying about whether you have fallen away as far as being entirely lost. We're never entirely lost as long because we've in the second course of salvation, which is Christ's eternal hood rather than at the foundation of his sacrifice.

I hope that I was able to make sense in conveying my ideas.

 

[HeIsHere]

You're redefining “enlightened” in Heb6:4 by importing John1:9 universal illumination to make it non-salvific. But staying within Hebrews shows photizō refers to covenantal participation - see Heb10:32, where believers are called to endure after being “enlightened.” The shift you’ve made isn’t lexical.

Glancing through the rest of your post it looks like you're continuing the theme.

Remind me again, if you will, the soteriology you believe is OSAS, Eternal Security, or something similar?

Enlightened it saved.

All the letters are written with the believer in mind. It is not about empty professions of faith, that is not in view here nor is it in view in James.
I really think this is a terrible way the exegete these more difficult passages, asserting they are not saved is wrong.

Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!



4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[Blain]

Vv. 1-3 Introduces the chapter context to be a call to maturity.

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,a and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms,b the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits.

I think the introduction and the conclusion of the chapter gives us an idea of what vv.4-6 are speaking toward.
Vv. 19-20 concludes, "19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus our forerunner has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.

With that in mind, Hebrews 6:4's "who have tasted the heavenly gift" compels me to believe the writer is speaking of those who have accepted the heavenly gift of salvation.

Are you familiar with the trick to lick a cupcake to claim it as yours so that your brother wouldn't touch it?
Well, in the case of the licked cupcake, it is impossible to unlick it and so, an entirely new cupcake would have to be baked for your brother while the baker looked on sneering at you with contempt because you stole the cupcake intended for you brother... because you didn't realize that the next desert course was an entire layer cake.

So, I don't think its speaking about falling away as much as it is speaking about worrying about whether you have fallen away as far as being entirely lost. We're never entirely lost as long because we've in the second course of salvation, which is Christ's eternal hood rather than at the foundation of his sacrifice.

I hope that I was able to make sense in conveying my ideas.

Yes I think you make sense and the chapter does seem to imply that it is not speaking of believers falling away but rather as if saying it is impossible to have tasted and seen and to crucify Christ again by seeking salvation a second time.

 

[studier]

I continue to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Did you read all of my post?

With respect, most if not all of us say the same thing.

No, I just addressed the first part because I didn't agree with it. See below.

Being enlightened in either verse does not automatically mean someone is saved. John 1:9 states that Jesus Christ is the true light who gives light to all as a form of spiritual awareness and responsibility but does not guarantee salvation for all. Now even though Hebrews 6:4 refers to gaining deeper knowledge and understanding of Biblical truth, yet they simply tasted and stopped there. Context is important. Again, verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

Apologies for coming and going.

Agreed that enlightened doesn't automatically mean one is saved.

I still at this point wouldn't attach Heb6:4 to John1:9 but it seems in what you said just above that you see the enlightenment in Heb6:4 is well beyond John1. If so, then we're probably closer than the way I first read you.

Heb10:32 in context seems to place the enlightenment in the context of first knowing about Jesus. John1 for me would be another discussion where I'd have to see His universal enlightenment be about the Gospel. IOW, I need to see the salvific issue re: enlightenment within Hebrews.

In this regard, the way I currently read Heb6:4 in context it's speaking of those who have been enlightened about Jesus Christ - which I think is well beyond John1:9 & which you seem to agree with above - and are among the believing community experiencing in some sense some of what it experiences - but not in the believing community - not yet in Christ. Their apostasy would thus have them apostatizing before being "saved" - falling away from the light they'd been given which at that point would have to be quite a bit based upon the 4 participles in Heb6:3-4 which can easily be [mis]interpreted for being saved.

In Heb10:32 I'd agree that being enlightened doesn't mean saved, and I think the 2nd clause indicates they were saved and had gotten beyond the Heb6:4 stage and had not apostatized. So, obviously the same audience he's speaking to in Heb6:9 that you pointed to (and also up through Heb6:3).

So, I retract anything that read like Heb6:4-8 is speaking of saved people. Assuming your language that I had you clarify, at this point I'd agree they are "nominal believers" - among the believing community but not IN the believing community.

This Hebrews writing is masterful. It's both a warning and an exhortation to the immature of Heb5 to grow up, and to the nominal in the community that to remain nominal they really haven't even entered into the immaturity yet. It's also instruction to the maturing of the importance to endure. Assuming this is all correct, it's also a fascinating way to confront the nominal and warn the immature in a pretty subtle and non-confrontational way while at the same time leaving everybody with the picture of a potential of being of no value, near to being cursed, and ending in being burned up.

Heb10 on the other hand is clearly about sinning and it looks to me like you have a handle on that also. Same masterful writing doing double and triple duty to the nominal, the immature, and the mature about the continuing consequences of sin.

Thanks for answering.

 

[studier]

Enlightened it saved.

???

 

[HeIsHere]

???

LOL, I really need to slow down in life.

When the author of Hebrews uses the word "enlighted" and "tasting the Heavenly gifts" he is referring to people who are believers, not people who had empty professions of faith.

They are not nominal believers.

 

[studier]

LOL, I really need to slow down in life.

When the author of Hebrews uses the word "enlighted" and "tasting the Heavenly gifts" he is referring to people who are believers, not people who had empty professions of faith.

They are not nominal believers.

Slower is almost the only thing I know these days...

At this time, I don't think enlightened in Heb6:4 refers to believers. I'm almost always open to looking at these things again and again, so you'd have to convince me.

 

[Doll]

Yes, it means no one can take them out of the Father’s hand, BUT that person can still sin and fall short of being saved by his own volition. For example, if you don’t repent, or worse, you turn away from God.

You're not making any sense.
When we are in the Father's hand we are Saved already. And our past Sins are forgiven and God remembers them no more.

Salvation!

Is not temporary reprieve until we stumble and lose the seal. We are sealed forever.
Because we did nothing to Save ourselves.

We are irrevocably Saved by God's grace. Not of ourselves so that we are then unable to boast we did save ourselves by choice or deeds. Conversely,given Salvation is a free grace gift of God alone,we cannot undo what God did do.

 

[Blain]

If sin had any power to make on unsaved then what was the point of Jesusu dying on the cross?
The fact is osas relies soley on Christ and the finnished work of the cross while once saved then not saved relies on man and his ability to not sin see the difference?

 

[Doll]

There is NONE righteous, no not one.
For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:10,23

True. That's speaking of the unredeemed.Not Christians.

 

[Doll]

most of them appose calvinism, and since they think for some odd reason OSAS is a calvinist formed doctrine, they feel they must fight it with all their heart and soul.

Its like the fight again trump and MAGA.. you can not allow even one thing they believe to stand,,

True. Eternal Security in Christ is not an equivocation.Salvation is eternal. The Saved are so,and are sealed by the Holy Spirit,irrevocably.

The works based,conditional reprieve doctrine,I feel, insists that believers natural carnal mind is in control. And the ego therein envisions salvation as a reward for their choosing to acquire it,as with any material possession,for themselves. Which coincides with their ideology that then insists they can return it whenever they like. As they do with most any material possession.

Egocentric doctrine.

 

[mailmandan]

If sin had any power to make on unsaved then what was the point of Jesusu dying on the cross?
The fact is osas relies soley on Christ and the finnished work of the cross while once saved then not saved relies on man and his ability to not sin see the difference?

God's preservation (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) versus self preservation.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

True. That's speaking of the unredeemed.Not Christians.

Exactly!
Then one of our precious gifts is the righteousness of our Savior.

All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
Isaiah

John 3:16 occurs and then...

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

 

[Blain]

God's preservation (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) versus self preservation.

Yes precisely and so if by our own works or doing we remain saved then we as sinners will always fail

 

[Doll]

Exactly!
Then one of our precious gifts is the righteousness of our Savior.

All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
Isaiah

John 3:16 occurs and then...

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

I don't concur with the Isaiah passage because that pertained ,pertained,to the Jews who to this day deny Messiah.

John 3:16 in context is apt because it pertains to those whom God calls as,whosoever he calls and lets to u derstand the Gospel then believe.

Just as Jesus said. PTL

 

[birdie]

I still keep sinning and sinning. repented. BUT I still smoke and drink.

Psalm 25:7: "Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD. "

Luke 11:2-4: "And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. "

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

LOL, I really need to slow down in life.

When the author of Hebrews uses the word "enlighted" and "tasting the Heavenly gifts" he is referring to people who are believers, not people who had empty professions of faith.

They are not nominal believers.

Enlighten means to know the truth. it has no bearing on whether they received the truth
Tasting means you have experienced. it does not mean you received. Anyone who is around a body of believers has experienced the truth and Gods love. be they saved or not.