Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[reneweddaybyday]

Evidently the word of God is not able to overcome the heart in those who don't believe. It is only able to overcome the hearts of those who believe. It is only the power of God to salvation to those who believe.

right ... those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness are the ones who receive the blessing.

Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek = katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

The words "who hold" in vs 18 are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress; restrain.

The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation ... those who do not suppress receive the promise ... because God's Word is life ... God's Word imparts life ... God's Word is power.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness do not change God's Word from being life or imparting life or having power. The Word remains the same life-giving power ... those who suppress receive that which God's Word tells us is the consequence of having suppressed.

But all this ignores what God is actually doing in salvation. He is coming to His people with the intention of saving them.

right ... God sends His faithful believers to preach the gospel ... God gave us His Word so we can read what He wants us to know about Him ... about the Lord Jesus Christ.

And He does by giving a new heart and spirit and indwelling them with His Spirit. This is exactly the new covenant promise so eloquently articulated in Ezekiel 36:26-27.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 does not state that the new heart is given before belief.

I agree that God creates the new heart within the born again one ... I believe this occurs the moment one believes the gospel as shown in Romans 1:16-17.

If someone suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, he or she will not receive the blessing ... he or she receives the consequence of having suppressed the truth. This truth goes all the way back to Gen 4 when God reached out to Cain and Cain rejected God. From the time of Genesis, God has continued, does continue, and will continue to reach out to all. Those who reject are without excuse. Those who do not reject receive the blessing.
.

 

[Magenta]

She outright denied Peter received revelation of this sort when Jesus affirmed that he had.

Truly shocking how much Scripture the FWer must deny to uphold their deception..

Matthew 16 verses 15-17 ~ What about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

 

[Rufus]

How about autonomy vs. submission?

Or how 'bout men without circumcised hearts naturally LOVE the darkness because their deeds are evil? There's a reason why unbelievers are called Darkness itself!

 

[Cameron143]

right ... those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness are the ones who receive the blessing.

Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek = katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

The words "who hold" in vs 18 are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress; restrain.

The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation ... those who do not suppress receive the promise ... because God's Word is life ... God's Word imparts life ... God's Word is power.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness do not change God's Word from being life or imparting life or having power. The Word remains the same life-giving power ... those who suppress receive that which God's Word tells us is the consequence of having suppressed.





right ... God sends His faithful believers to preach the gospel ... God gave us His Word so we can read what He wants us to know about Him ... about the Lord Jesus Christ.





Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 does not state that the new heart is given before belief.

I agree that God creates the new heart within the born again one ... I believe this occurs the moment one believes the gospel as shown in Romans 1:16-17.

If someone suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, he or she will not receive the blessing ... he or she receives the consequence of having suppressed the truth. This truth goes all the way back to Gen 4 when God reached out to Cain and Cain rejected God. From the time of Genesis, God has continued, does continue, and will continue to reach out to all. Those who reject are without excuse. Those who do not reject receive the blessing.
.

So what you are saying is that people are more powerful than the power of the gospel.

And I'm saying the new heart and spirit and the working of the Spirit are what allows people the freedom to choose.

 

[Blain]

So what you are saying is that people are more powerful than the power of the gospel.

And I'm saying the new heart and spirit and the working of the Spirit are what allows people the freedom to choose.

But the freedom choose before they have that though, is that even possible? if we have any kind of freedom of choosing before salvation where is that in scripture? and why do we then have that freedom once we are saved?

 

[Rufus]

FTFY.
.

No, you FT

The Word of God is what enters into the heart that is deceitful. The Word of God changes the heart of man. The words contained in the Word of God are living words ... they are Spirit and they are life ... when read, they aren't just words on a page ... and when spoken, they don't just drop to the ground ... God's Word is either believed by the reader/hearer or God's Word is suppressed in unrighteousness by the reader/hearer. The reader stops his or her eyes and the hearer stops his or her ears long before God gives them over to their foolishness as shown in Rom 1:20-32.





yes ... in agreement with what is written in Romans 10:9 ... and read what is written in vs 8 ...

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
.

So how exactly how do the unilateral New Covenant promises fit into this heart change?

 

[Magenta]

Or how 'bout men without circumcised hearts naturally LOVE the darkness because
their deeds are evil? There's a reason why unbelievers are called Darkness itself!

They actually HATE the light... and WILL NOT come into it... though of course the FWer says differently.

 

[Rufus]

No, that is not what you said in your first post. This is what you said it in post 15,695", which initiated the discussion:

"I believe the moment you Repent like the Bible says then you are Regenerated [which is saved because you are filled with the Holy Ghost]. "

My point was the opposite of that - that true repentance is from God not man. As such, it is given as a byproduct of salvation as a free gift- not as a product of man's choices nor does it cause salvation, as stated by your post.

Exactly! In fact, since the the unregenerate heart is filled ungodly desires, God must first instill the Fear of Himself into such hearts so that they will repent! To Fear the Lord is to to turn away from evil, which is what repentance is all about. When one turns or shuns evil, then this implies he turns to what is good, holy and righteous.

 

[cv5]

any attempts to elevate the discussion from pablum is quickly quashed and re-routed back to familiar [to them] talking points ... no getting out of the basement ....

On target.....

 

[Rufus]

They actually HATE the light... and WILL NOT come into it... though of course the FWer says differently.

Good catch, sister! And this is the reason they LOVE themselves so much (i.e. what they ARE in their essence which is Darkness itself).

 

[Cameron143]

But the freedom choose before they have that though, is that even possible? if we have any kind of freedom of choosing before salvation where is that in scripture? and why do we then have that freedom once we are saved?

We do not have free will. We are either a slave to sin or slave to Christ; a slave to righteousness or unrighteousness. We are born slaves to sin.
This doesn't mean we can't make choices, but it does mean we are limited in the choices we can make given our estate.

I have seen 3 different propositions made:
...the first, man in his fallen estate, as is, can choose to believe. I reject this based on the nature of his fallen estate.
...the second, God withholds the effects of man's flesh, which allows man to freely choose to believe. This is called prevenient grace. I reject this for a number of reasons which we can discuss if you like.
...the third, God changes in man all that hinders him from believing in Him. This is the view I ascribe to.

 

[Rufus]

I agree, yes indeed, it is all about Jesus,
As well, I think the foundational biblical starting point is God is LOVE.
All attributes of God are within this foundational first principle of God.

This is where the Reformed theology does err profoundly!
This ties into salvation being a gift freely offered to whomsoever will believe.

1) By logical necessity the person must have the will to accept or reject what it being offered. The act of accepting a gift which is offered cannot take place without will and volition.

2) If God regenerates first (gives a new heart, gifts faith, gifts hearing blah blah blah) THEN it is not a gift.

Without having the capacity to accept or receive anything, the concept of a “gift” becomes truly meaningless in every possible sense of the word. A gift is offered freely, never forced which ties into the character of God being LOVE.

If salvation is a gift, it suggests that God does not force belief, but offers eternal life, leaving room for a voluntary response.

The reformed doctrine (TULIP) is so obviously, painfully false, it just makes me wonder about the motives of those who push it.

Appreciate any feedback on the concept of the gift and its connection to personal volition, since I know you were posting about volition a while back.

Physical life, among many other things in temporal reality, is a gift, as well. So...according to your "logic" (if I dare glorify your nonsense with that label) God must have"forced" that gift upon each and everyone of us, since your god Volition was left out in the bitter, freezing cold. Do you have any more brilliant pearls of wisdom?

 

[sawdust]

rolleyes ... you do the same thing with Scripture ... smh
.

I don't know what you mean? Do you think our bodies make decisions or do you think it behaves autonomously? Do you will your body to digest food or your brain to function? Even breathing, while we can hold it for short periods of time by sheer force of will, it will override our volition and force us to breathe again.

 

[Rufus]

Yes, and his lie was that she could be as God.

But you FWers have a far greater sin with which to contend. You guys believe the lie that you're better and more powerful than God since you can change your own immutable nature, which is something that even He cannot do!

 

[sawdust]

I've thought about it for quite some time as I'm pretty certain you and others have.

Some thoughts:

The test in the Garden and the challenge put forth was of willful submission to God or of autonomy (you'll be like God) which by definition is ultimately disobedience to God.

IMO, the obedience part of faith is not focused on enough. There is no biblical faith apart from obedience. So, we're right back to the Garden issue of submission vs. autonomy.

When Jesus gave His most emphasized lesson according to John4:20-24 He was emphatic (used the word "proskuneo" 8x in 4 verses) that God is seeking those who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth. Proskuneo is a word re: reverent submission - obedience. Again, submission vs. autonomy.

Jesus learned and lived in perfect obedience to our Father and was perfected Heb5:6-9 and became the cause-source of salvation for all who obey Him.

"Christ" as in "YHWH's Anointed/Messiah/Christ/King" per Ps2 which Paul used to evangelize, insures we all know our belief in the Christ/King is submission vs. autonomy. He says in 1Cor3 that Jesus is the Christ (YHWH's Anointed/Messiah/Christ/King) is the foundation of the Gospel.

This just continues throughout all of Scripture.

At the heart of the issue of the Gospel is one of submission or rejection of ultimate and absolute authority. Jesus said this is at the heart of who God is seeking. We can tie volitional obedience to Faith, to Love, to knowing God, and to many other if not all of the important words and concepts we deal with in the NC. It's simply the reversal of the Garden. Jesus was first and will always remain first-born. He's saving as siblings those who obey Him.

So the discussion becomes, why don't many submit to Him?

I agree with what you said but I think the submission or lack of it only gives answers to "how" things are the way they are, I don't think it explains why some choose to submit while others do not.

We can say they're selfish and want to be their own boss but that still doesn't really explain why they don't repent. We have all been there done that and realised it doesn't work so why stick to it? But those who will end up in the lake of fire refuse to see it and continue to persist thinking that their way is the right way and even God cannot convince them otherwise.

I will never understand or relate to that way of thinking where good is called evil and evil good.

 

[sawdust]

Obviously, it has never occurred to you that your own writing skills could use improvement. As the old proverb goes: As a man thinks in his heart [or expresses in writing], so he is!

It was your thinking that jumped to abortion, not mine so it is your heart you are expounding not mine.

Plants don't breathe (inhale/exhale) does this mean they are all just a bunch of dead vegetation? Should we get rid of the lot?

If you were a thinking man you would be less reactive, but you're not so we are stuck with your constant outlandish, reactionary responses.

Have a nice day.

 

[sawdust]

No, only you would think such nonsense! God clearly decreed the Fall. He predicted the Fall and to facilitate it, He cast his arch enemy down to earth instead of to the lake of fire after he sinned. The Fall was always the eternal plan!

Because He knew some would always choose evil.

 

[Rufus]

You definitely do. You don't even know what Cornelius did for months before God sent Peter to him. You just lie one after another. You need more than help you need God!

But we do know that Cornelius was God-fearing man ; we know that God LOVES those who fear Him; we know that God sovereignly instills the fear of Himself into his chosen, covenant people; and we know that salvation is near to those who Fear God, which the narrative proves. What else do we need to know about Cornelius?

 

[Genez]

Translate: I don't really know if those who murdered Christ were wise or foolish people. I don't know if they murdered Christ because they rejected His gospel or "advanced Christian doctrine".

Nice theory though about Paul's "advanced Christian doctrine".

And since you're so big on context, how come you haven't noticed that the Gr. term rendered "foolishness" appears 7 times in the NT: 6 of those just happen to be in 1Cor and the other is in 2Cor.? I wonder if the "message of the Cross" was foolishness to those who are perishing (1Cor 1:18) because they rejected the plain ol' foundational Gospel of Forgiveness or "advanced Christian doctrine"? And were such people wise or fools in your eyes?

How do you type while wearing boxing gloves?

 

[Rufus]

It was your thinking that jumped to abortion, not mine so it is your heart you are expounding not mine.

Plants don't breathe (inhale/exhale) does this mean they are all just a bunch of dead vegetation? Should we get rid of the lot?

If you were a thinking man you would be less reactive, but you're not so we are stuck with your constant outlandish, reactionary responses.

Have a nice day.

And it was your poor reading skills that jumped to the conclusion that I labeled you a pro-abortionist -- when in fact, I merely stated that you sound like one.

And now you're going to try to draw an analogy between human life, made in God's image, with vegetation life? Oy, vey! Or did you carelessly form such a stupid analogy because you're really a potato head?