to do or not to do

[randyk]

Aah, This only proves you are not understanding Scripture, at all! Apparently you don’t recognize commands when they’re given….

Also, I never said we were under Law; we are not under Law! There can only be one testament in effect and it’s the NT/ NC.

-Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it written, cursed is everyone who hangs on the tree). Gal. 3:13
-What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgression, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made…..Gal. 3:19

You're not following the arguments--I apologize if I'm not clear enough. I wasn't suggesting you believe we're under the Law. I was using a principled argument, that if we "emulate" Moses we are *not* following any command to obey the Law.

So the argument is, What is "emulating?" You've said we're to "emulate" the Apostles in their obedience to Jesus' command to "baptize." Are we not really under that command, or just following their tradition as we deem appropriate?

After all, we "emulate" Moses but do not follow his command to obey the Law. Can we then just "emulate" the Apostles and not obey their mandate to baptize?

 

[TruthDefender]

You're not following the arguments--I apologize if I'm not clear enough. I wasn't suggesting you believe we're under the Law. I was using a principled argument, that if we "emulate" Moses we are *not* following any command to obey the Law.

So the argument is, What is "emulating?" You've said we're to "emulate" the Apostles in their obedience to Jesus' command to "baptize." Are we not really under that command, or just following their tradition as we deem appropriate?

After all, we "emulate" Moses but do not follow his command to obey the Law. Can we then just "emulate" the Apostles and not obey their mandate to baptize?

Don’t get stuck on the word “Emulate”! Ok let’s use another word that doesn’t seem to bother you as much. I apologize, let’s get away from “emulate” and get some questions answered, because I don’t know where you’re coming from…. Some of your statements don’t make since to me.

-Would you agree that Jesus laid down a pattern through His 12 apostles?

-Would you agree that we are to follow this pattern; since this pattern was given for our example?

-Would you not agree that all of the examples were written for our understanding/ benefit?

-If Jesus said to do something/ Do this…, is this not a direct command??
Pretty simple!

 

[randyk]

Don’t get stuck on the word “Emulate”! Ok let’s use another word that doesn’t seem to bother you as much. I apologize, let’s get away from “emulate” and get some questions answered, because I don’t know where you’re coming from…. Some of your statements don’t make since to me.

-Would you agree that Jesus laid down a pattern through His 12 apostles?

A pattern of Christian living, but not necessarily as ministry. As I said, the Apostle Paul told us that we do not all hve the same gift, that not all are apostles.

-Would you agree that we are to follow this pattern; since this pattern was given for our example?

-Would you not agree that all of the examples were written for our understanding/ benefit?

-If Jesus said to do something/ Do this…, is this not a direct command??
Pretty simple!

Again, not every command was for all Christians. Some commands were strictly for Jesus' Apostles at a particular point in time. The command to baptize was given in the transition point from OT to NT and involved bringing into the Family people who had been pagans from other countries. Israel had become so spiritually desolate it's as if they had to start all over again.

So perhaps that made Water Baptism necessary to show the complete abandonment of either apostasy or paganism in order to start afresh. After centuries of Christian society, there were still people who had not fully committed to the Lord. I was one such person, who knew the Lord, was raised in a Christian family, and yet did not fully appreciate all that I could have in Christ.

I had been baptized/dedicated as an infant. And I felt no need to be baptized again, or even as an adult giving my all to the Lord. I went ahead and got water baptized again, just to obey in case that's what the Lord wanted. And I don't regret it because it allowed me to make a public statement, both to others and to myself.

But no, I don't think a command exists to call all Christians to water baptism. If it exists in Scriptures I don't know about it. Do you?

 

[TruthDefender]

A pattern of Christian living, but not necessarily as ministry. As I said, the Apostle Paul told us that we do not all hve the same gift, that not all are apostles.



Again, not every command was for all Christians. Some commands were strictly for Jesus' Apostles at a particular point in time. The command to baptize was given in the transition point from OT to NT and involved bringing into the Family people who had been pagans from other countries. Israel had become so spiritually desolate it's as if they had to start all over again.

So perhaps that made Water Baptism necessary to show the complete abandonment of either apostasy or paganism in order to start afresh. After centuries of Christian society, there were still people who had not fully committed to the Lord. I was one such person, who knew the Lord, was raised in a Christian family, and yet did not fully appreciate all that I could have in Christ.

I had been baptized/dedicated as an infant. And I felt no need to be baptized again, or even as an adult giving my all to the Lord. I went ahead and got water baptized again, just to obey in case that's what the Lord wanted. And I don't regret it because it allowed me to make a public statement, both to others and to myself.

But no, I don't think a command exists to call all Christians to water baptism. If it exists in Scriptures I don't know about it. Do you?

Well, I disagree. It’s definitely part of the pattern that we are to abide by. And there are no apostles today, only disciples in Christ.

You mentioned a transition point, going from the OC to NC during the time of Christ. That’s false too! The OC wasn’t in effect until Jesus died on the cross. During His time, before death, the Law was still in effect. He and His 12 were Jewish, and still observed the Feasts and the Sabbath Days.

-Don’t think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn’t come to -destroy but to fulfill. Matt. 5:17

"But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
II Corinthians 3:14-17 NKJV

-"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."
Galatians 3:24-25 NKJV

 

[randyk]

Well, I disagree. It’s definitely part of the pattern that we are to abide by. And there are no apostles today, only disciples in Christ.

You ignored the most important question: where in the NT are we *commanded* to water baptize? A "pattern" is not a "command!"

You mentioned a transition point, going from the OC to NC during the time of Christ. That’s false too! The OC wasn’t in effect until Jesus died on the cross. During His time, before death, the Law was still in effect. He and His 12 were Jewish, and still observed the Feasts and the Sabbath Days.

Jesus made the Great Commission *after* the Cross. That is when he told them to baptize.
Since you found no NT command to Water Baptize, other than to the Apostles, I'm not going to consider a "pattern" a "command" for me or for others who are not Apostles and who Jesus did not command. You can disagree all you want, but if you wish to make Water Baptism a command, you're going against the Scriptures.

 

[TruthDefender]

You ignored the most important question: where in the NT are we *commanded* to water baptize? A "pattern" is not a "command!"



Jesus made the Great Commission *after* the Cross. That is when he told them to baptize.
Since you found no NT command to Water Baptize, other than to the Apostles, I'm not going to consider a "pattern" a "command" for me or for others who are not Apostles and who Jesus did not command. You can disagree all you want, but if you wish to make Water Baptism a command, you're going against the Scriptures.

And you ignored the verses that were given to do so.
This is a simple verse to understand that even a child understands the meaning—

-"Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:3, 5 NKJV

If you refuse to believe that baptism isn’t needed then you’re believing in a lie.

 

[randyk]

And you ignored the verses that were given to do so.
This is a simple verse to understand that even a child understands the meaning—

-"Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:3, 5 NKJV

If you refuse to believe that baptism isn’t needed then you’re believing in a lie.

That's an invalid argument. Being "born of water" is not "Water Baptism." It doesn't even say "Water Baptism." So you're calling me more ignorant than a child for not believing something you made up.

It's obvioiusly so. One is not "born of Water Baptism." A person only gets Water Baptized *after* he has been Born Again, or accepted Christ. I've told you this already. Water Baptism only *symbolizes* the regeneration we've already received when we chose to believe Christ's word of Salvation to us.

 

[randyk]

And you ignored the verses that were given to do so.
This is a simple verse to understand that even a child understands the meaning—

-"Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:3, 5 NKJV

If you refuse to believe that baptism isn’t needed then you’re believing in a lie.

Although being "Born of Water" is not Water Baptism, it is the symbol of rebirth. We are Born Again by receiving the Word of God and by means of the Holy Spirit. Being Water Baptised is purely symbolic of the regeneration that takes place when we receive Christ's Word, which cleanses us. Water Baptism symbolizes this cleansing process as an affirmation of something we've already received when we were Born Again by the Spirit.

Do you have one single verse of Scripture that indicates Water Baptism gives us New Birth? This one verse is used perennially to try to prove this:

1 Pet 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Notice what it says.
1) Water symbolizes baptism. That is, the water in itself is meaningless. It symbolizes Spirit Baptism.
2) It is a pledge of our conscience. It is the pledge that saves us--not the water.
3) The means of Salvation is Christ's resurrection, which is what we are pledging ourselves to. It is *not* the water of baptism, which only symbolizes the Salvation we have already received when we pledged ourselves previously to Christ.

Water Baptism was used as a symbol of our commitment to Salvation precisely because Christ ordered his Apostles to do it. There is no command to do this beyond the time of the Apostles that I know of. They founded churches so that people could be raised up in the faith rather than be brought out of paganism by repentance and spiritual cleansing.

You want to believe Water has magical properties that Save you? Incredible! You want to believe that it is your fidelity to Water Baptism that Saves you? There is nothing you could do, by your flawed record, that could ever Save you!

 

[TruthDefender]

That's an invalid argument. Being "born of water" is not "Water Baptism." It doesn't even say "Water Baptism." So you're calling me more ignorant than a child for not believing something you made up.

It's obvioiusly so. One is not "born of Water Baptism." A person only gets Water Baptized *after* he has been Born Again, or accepted Christ. I've told you this already. Water Baptism only *symbolizes* the regeneration we've already received when we chose to believe Christ's word of Salvation to us.

Ok got it, guess that was a flyover. Yep

 

[homwardbound]

And yet you say that because Jesus told his Apostle to baptize and to make disciples of all nations that all Christians must "emulate" this? You are inconsistent, and seem unable to follow the argument. What is "absurd" and "obvious" to you is betrayed by your lack of reason.

The simple and basic point is this. Unless all Christians are specifically told to do something, what others are told is not necessarily what we must do. There is no command in Scriptures that require all Christians to baptize. There is no command in Scriptures that all or any Christians must follow the Law, even though what God told Moses and Israel may be something we can morally and spiritually "emulate."

When you say we are required to "emulate" something you are implying that what was commanded the Apostles is also commanded all Christians. You have neither proved this nor proved what "emulating that" really means, ie whether it is something we are required to do or merely something we have the option of doing?

An important question
Which Jesus Christ are you believing?

What comes out of the mouths of people, there is only one Jesus Christ!

Actually, there is the imitation Jesus, that people are trying to live as if are Jesus, as if they got it and are the way, truth and life. The imintators

Then there is the risen Jesus Christ, who is alive in Father's Spirit and Truth for you to give self up to new life from God, willingly. Phil 3

Philippians 3:1
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed isnot grievous, but for you it is safe.
Philippians 3:2
Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Ephesians 6:10
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

The flesh nature is out and pouts for the self and will play any fiddle to get anyone under them, to control them to be god over them
Born again from God Father in risen Son takes on a whole new work, none of that persons own anymore (First birth). Selfishness leaves, yet always there trying to get back in charge again and make bad habits in those that really do believe God is real in risen Son for them, by using Law putting people under it to do it, which no flesh but Son's can and did it for you to be new in love and mercy to all too, thank you Father

Romans 7:14-17

Authorized (King James) Version

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[randyk]

An important question
Which Jesus Christ are you believing?

Really? You think *you* alone have the genuine Jesus? You think *you* are the only one to teach others who the "real Jesus" is? I could easily say that your spirit is wrong, and that *you* have the wrong Jesus. But that wouldn't be right.

The fact is, you are right that many Christians are going down the wide path that leads to the loss of spiritual life, and only a relative few walk down the narrow path that is filled with spiritual life.

Don't be like the very people you want to condemn. Be the source of life in yourself by submitting to God. He alone decides who is spiritual and who is not.

 

[homwardbound]

Really? You think *you* alone have the genuine Jesus? You think *you* are the only one to teach others who the "real Jesus" is? I could easily say that your spirit is wrong, and that *you* have the wrong Jesus. But that wouldn't be right.

The fact is, you are right that many Christians are going down the wide path that leads to the loss of spiritual life, and only a relative few walk down the narrow path that is filled with spiritual life.

Don't be like the very people you want to condemn. Be the source of life in yourself by submitting to God. He alone decides who is spiritual and who is not.

I do not know, where you get these thoughts of me. Yet you got them, listening to them
I have not ever said I am God or am the way, or the new life offered in the risen Jesus unto Father. Or that "I" know. Paul himself never said He is God either in any of the Epistles God wrote through him.
Never said I want to even condemn anyone
Just being clear God loves us all unconditionally nditionally, wants to teach each person n truth over error(s) we all have had and might not have anymore, at least learning to not have in the way, and remain humble in leaving them behind
So, sorry you have taken offense. the double-edged sword of Evil, using truth to cause evil. When Daddy, PaPa, Father is sharper than any double-edged sword
Thanks for being concerned
Romans 14:1-4, I stand in trust to God (the Father of risen Son) to get each of us to see truth over error, and walk in love and mercy to all, and not condemn, excuse or abuse anyone in the process thank you

 

[TruthDefender]

Although being "Born of Water" is not Water Baptism, it is the symbol of rebirth. We are Born Again by receiving the Word of God and by means of the Holy Spirit. Being Water Baptised is purely symbolic of the regeneration that takes place when we receive Christ's Word, which cleanses us. Water Baptism symbolizes this cleansing process as an affirmation of something we've already received when we were Born Again by the Spirit.

Do you have one single verse of Scripture that indicates Water Baptism gives us New Birth? This one verse is used perennially to try to prove this:

1 Pet 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Notice what it says.
1) Water symbolizes baptism. That is, the water in itself is meaningless. It symbolizes Spirit Baptism.
2) It is a pledge of our conscience. It is the pledge that saves us--not the water.
3) The means of Salvation is Christ's resurrection, which is what we are pledging ourselves to. It is *not* the water of baptism, which only symbolizes the Salvation we have already received when we pledged ourselves previously to Christ.

Water Baptism was used as a symbol of our commitment to Salvation precisely because Christ ordered his Apostles to do it. There is no command to do this beyond the time of the Apostles that I know of. They founded churches so that people could be raised up in the faith rather than be brought out of paganism by repentance and spiritual cleansing.

You want to believe Water has magical properties that Save you? Incredible! You want to believe that it is your fidelity to Water Baptism that Saves you? There is nothing you could do, by your flawed record, that could ever Save you!

Again you’re putting words in my mouth that I never said, or even indicated; that water has “magical properties.”

All I said is that it is a command, period. However, I can see that you twist my words like you twist verses in Scripture!

 

[randyk]

I do not know, where you get these thoughts of me. Yet you got them, listening to them

You don't know what comes out of your own "mouth?" You questioned whether I have the "genuine Jesus!" You questioned "which Jesus" I was listening to! Really, you have no clue what made me somewhat defensive?

So, sorry you have taken offense....

Are you really? When you act like you don't know what offended me, you are not acknowledging you did anything wrong.

Perhaps you don't think you did anything wrong? Well, it may be that you simply questioned whether I interpreted Jesus right? Nothing wrong with that. But you questioned whether I even have the "right Jesus?" How can I not be offended at such a question?

I assure you I have the right Jesus. I just don't claim to always hear him right. Nor should you.

 

[randyk]

Again you’re putting words in my mouth that I never said, or even indicated; that water has “magical properties.”

All I said is that it is a command, period. However, I can see that you twist my words like you twist verses in Scripture!

I know you didn't say water has magical properties. But if it is a command to use the element of water to obtain Salvation then the water itself either cleanses from sin or it doesn't. If we are cleansed purely by the Word of God why would Water Baptism be a command?

 

[TruthDefender]

I know you didn't say water has magical properties. But if it is a command to use the element of water to obtain Salvation then the water itself either cleanses from sin or it doesn't. If we are cleansed purely by the Word of God why would Water Baptism be a command?

He is the Potter! Does the vase ask the Potter why He made him that way? Do we always know why God issues commands??

If we are hiking in the bush (woods) and there is a sign that says, Warning, trail closed! are you going to take it anyway, because you think it’s ridiculous? Reasons aren’t always given….
Likewise, if He says do/ don’t do something, you OBEY!

 

[randyk]

He is the Potter! Does the vase ask the Potter why He made him that way? Do we always know why God issues commands??

If we are hiking in the bush (woods) and there is a sign that says, Warning, trail closed! are you going to take it anyway, because you think it’s ridiculous? Reasons aren’t always given….
Likewise, if He says do/ don’t do something, you OBEY!

I disagree. Everything God does by His word is reasonable. "Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord.

 

[homwardbound]

You don't know what comes out of your own "mouth?" You questioned whether I have the "genuine Jesus!" You questioned "which Jesus" I was listening to! Really, you have no clue what made me somewhat defensive?



Are you really? When you act like you don't know what offended me, you are not acknowledging you did anything wrong.

Perhaps you don't think you did anything wrong? Well, it may be that you simply questioned whether I interpreted Jesus right? Nothing wrong with that. But you questioned whether I even have the "right Jesus?" How can I not be offended at such a question?

I assure you I have the right Jesus. I just don't claim to always hear him right. Nor should you.

You have misinterpreted me, Thanks as each person grows new and not be any better than anyone else, ever at least to me God having g no respect of persons.
I was not attacking you personally, yet you have personally thought or think I have or am
Trusting God all in all and letting. you know I was talking about myself not knowing then, the difference. Now see it is not me, you or anyone else, it is all God for us all to love in mercy and truth given us to love all, not just those that love us back. I have loved many of your posts posted, and do not know if I disagreed with any but this one.
Never meant to harm you or anyone, if are harmed, there might be a problem, yet it is not with me, yet am sorry you are offended, there is a reason, taking it to Father in risen Son to share in care for us all

I hate sin too, thank you any sin ever!

 

[TruthDefender]

I disagree. Everything God does by His word is reasonable. "Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord.

You are free to disagree, but you might want to ponder this statement:

… For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."
Matthew 12:50 NKJV

 

[homwardbound]

You are free to disagree, but you might want to ponder this statement:

… For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."
Matthew 12:50 NKJV

the final goal of God for us in risen Son given or to get given to us and see new in love and mercy to all too, thank you