WORKS

[Beckworth]

Let’s talk about “works” as they are talked about in the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8-9 “ For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Because of this verse, works have become a bad word in religious discussions. Most religious people believe ALL works are bad. Works are lumped into one category “bad.”
But in just the NEXT VERSE, Paul says we should walk in “GOOD WORKS.” So obviously there are SOME works that are NOT BAD.

We have works being described as “BOASTFUL” ” in Eph. 2:9 which are bad and we have “GOOD WORKS” that we are suppose to walk in. And in JOHN 6:29, we have WORKS OF GOD. One of these works is “Faith.” Verse 29. Obviously, works of God are good.

Another passage talks about “WORKS OF THE LAW” Galatians 2:16 and those are “bad” works, too, that won’t save us. And Titus 3:5 talks about “WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS which “WE” do, which would also fall into the “bad” category. That’s “FIVE” (5) different kinds of works. The point is, when someone says we are NOT SAVED BY WORKS, they really need to define which kind of works they mean. God does not lump ALL works into the “bad” category.

What they USUALLY mean is that we are not saved by ANY works. Surely that can’t be true because “faith” is a work and everyone believes that faith saves us. Baptism is a work of God, Colossians 2:12 and Peter says IT saves us. 1 Peter 3:21 (regardless of those who refuse to believe it). That’s what the BIBLE says.. AND the point of James 2 :14-26 is that MAN is justified by works as well as faith but NOT BY FAITH ALONE. (Verses 21, 22, 24)

So, are there SOME works that save us and SOME works which do NOT save us? YES! We have to agree that the works of God save us because Jesus defined faith as a work of God. John 6:29. We know “without faith it is impossible to please Him.” Hebrews 11:6. So, I know without a doubt that we are saved by WORKS OF GOD.

Obviously, we need to define what the WORKS OF GOD are. When the people asked Jesus the question about what are the works ( plural) of God, He did not correct their question as if it was in error. Would it surprise you to know that these people who asked the question were NOT BELIEVERS. In verse 30 they want to see a “sign”. So that THEY MIGHT BELIEVE HIM. So they don’t believe in Him when they asked him the question. In verse 36, He testifies about them, that they DO NOT BELIEVE. So how does Jesus. who can read minds and hearts, answer their question? What do they need to do? THEY NEED TO BELIEVE! would it have been LOGICAL for Jesus to tell them to “repent”,? no, faith must come first. Would you expect Him to tell them to be baptized? Never! Baptism is for believers. And faith is the FIRST thing they must do. Without faith, baptism is nothing more than getting wet! So He tells them that if they really want to work the works of God, they must have FAITH. I wouldn’t have expected Him to give any other answer. Faith comes first! Faith is a PRE-REQUISITE for repentance, confession and baptism. And we know there are more works of God than just faith because Paul calls baptism the “working of God” in Col. 2:12

Whatever God tells man he must do to be saved would be a work of God—not a work of man. That means “repentance” and “confession” are necessary works of God, too.

Would you deny that the works of God are works of righteousness? Surely, all of God’s works are righteous. What then are the WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS talked about in Titus 3:5 that are bad? The Key to those works is the pronoun “WE” They are SELF- righteous works which “WE” do. Perhaps these are the kinds of works that the People in Matthew 7 did. They said to the Lord, “and in thy name done many mighty works!” But He said He never knew them. They were working without His authority ( lawlessness).

There is another kind of “works of righteousness” that someone has called “practical” righteousness. If you want to call it something else that’s alright with me. That name is not in the Bible so I’m just using it to illustrate. But this is the example of Cornelius in Acts 10. Cornelius was NOT A CHRISTIAN but He is described by the Holy Spirit as “devout, one who feared God, gave alms GENEROUSLY to the people, and prayed to God always. He was living a good life through good deeds ( works). But he wasn’t saved. So these are al least 2 kinds of righteousness that will not save. You.

How do we “apply”. What we know about works? One way is to understand that not ALL works are condemned by Ephesians 2:8-9. The ONLY works that are condemned there are “BOASTFUL “ works. This verse is specifically used to try to eliminate “baptism.” However, Jesus Himself tells me that baptism is NOT one of these works because He said that when you have done what God ( your master) tells you to do, you CANNOT BOAST, because you have only done your “DUTY.” You have only done what God told you to do. Like 17, and you can’t boast about that. Can you “boast “ about believing? Is “.faith” a “boastful work”? Neither is repentance, confession nor baptism. Those are WORKS OF GOD that he has told us to do. It is our “duty”?to obey the Master. Luke 17:10.

So, the next time someone says “works won’t save you.” Ask them what kinds of works are they talking about. Are they talking about “boastful” works? Works of the old law,? works of God, ? self righteous works? It makes a difference.

 

[tourist]

There is a long-lasting thread 'Not By Works' that has been going on for years. Got over 100,000 posts. You might want to check it out. It is in the Bible Discussion Forum.

 

[Beckworth]

There is a long-lasting thread 'Not By Works' that has been going on for years. Got over 100,000 posts. You might want to check it out. It is in the Bible Discussion Forum.

I did not know that. Thanks. I will see if I can find it.

 

[mailmandan]

Let’s talk about “works” as they are talked about in the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8-9 “ For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Because of this verse, works have become a bad word in religious discussions. Most religious people believe ALL works are bad. Works are lumped into one category “bad.”
But in just the NEXT VERSE, Paul says we should walk in “GOOD WORKS.” So obviously there are SOME works that are NOT BAD.

We have works being described as “BOASTFUL” ” in Eph. 2:9 which are bad and we have “GOOD WORKS” that we are suppose to walk in. And in JOHN 6:29, we have WORKS OF GOD. One of these works is “Faith.” Verse 29. Obviously, works of God are good.

Another passage talks about “WORKS OF THE LAW” Galatians 2:16 and those are “bad” works, too, that won’t save us. And Titus 3:5 talks about “WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS which “WE” do, which would also fall into the “bad” category. That’s “FIVE” (5) different kinds of works. The point is, when someone says we are NOT SAVED BY WORKS, they really need to define which kind of works they mean. God does not lump ALL works into the “bad” category.

What they USUALLY mean is that we are not saved by ANY works. Surely that can’t be true because “faith” is a work and everyone believes that faith saves us. Baptism is a work of God, Colossians 2:12 and Peter says IT saves us. 1 Peter 3:21 (regardless of those who refuse to believe it). That’s what the BIBLE says.. AND the point of James 2 :14-26 is that MAN is justified by works as well as faith but NOT BY FAITH ALONE. (Verses 21, 22, 24)

So, are there SOME works that save us and SOME works which do NOT save us? YES! We have to agree that the works of God save us because Jesus defined faith as a work of God. John 6:29. We know “without faith it is impossible to please Him.” Hebrews 11:6. So, I know without a doubt that we are saved by WORKS OF GOD.

Obviously, we need to define what the WORKS OF GOD are. When the people asked Jesus the question about what are the works ( plural) of God, He did not correct their question as if it was in error. Would it surprise you to know that these people who asked the question were NOT BELIEVERS. In verse 30 they want to see a “sign”. So that THEY MIGHT BELIEVE HIM. So they don’t believe in Him when they asked him the question. In verse 36, He testifies about them, that they DO NOT BELIEVE. So how does Jesus. who can read minds and hearts, answer their question? What do they need to do? THEY NEED TO BELIEVE! would it have been LOGICAL for Jesus to tell them to “repent”,? no, faith must come first. Would you expect Him to tell them to be baptized? Never! Baptism is for believers. And faith is the FIRST thing they must do. Without faith, baptism is nothing more than getting wet! So He tells them that if they really want to work the works of God, they must have FAITH. I wouldn’t have expected Him to give any other answer. Faith comes first! Faith is a PRE-REQUISITE for repentance, confession and baptism. And we know there are more works of God than just faith because Paul calls baptism the “working of God” in Col. 2:12

Whatever God tells man he must do to be saved would be a work of God—not a work of man. That means “repentance” and “confession” are necessary works of God, too.

Would you deny that the works of God are works of righteousness? Surely, all of God’s works are righteous. What then are the WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS talked about in Titus 3:5 that are bad? The Key to those works is the pronoun “WE” They are SELF- righteous works which “WE” do. Perhaps these are the kinds of works that the People in Matthew 7 did. They said to the Lord, “and in thy name done many mighty works!” But He said He never knew them. They were working without His authority ( lawlessness).

There is another kind of “works of righteousness” that someone has called “practical” righteousness. If you want to call it something else that’s alright with me. That name is not in the Bible so I’m just using it to illustrate. But this is the example of Cornelius in Acts 10. Cornelius was NOT A CHRISTIAN but He is described by the Holy Spirit as “devout, one who feared God, gave alms GENEROUSLY to the people, and prayed to God always. He was living a good life through good deeds ( works). But he wasn’t saved. So these are al least 2 kinds of righteousness that will not save. You.

How do we “apply”. What we know about works? One way is to understand that not ALL works are condemned by Ephesians 2:8-9. The ONLY works that are condemned there are “BOASTFUL “ works. This verse is specifically used to try to eliminate “baptism.” However, Jesus Himself tells me that baptism is NOT one of these works because He said that when you have done what God ( your master) tells you to do, you CANNOT BOAST, because you have only done your “DUTY.” You have only done what God told you to do. Like 17, and you can’t boast about that. Can you “boast “ about believing? Is “.faith” a “boastful work”? Neither is repentance, confession nor baptism. Those are WORKS OF GOD that he has told us to do. It is our “duty”?to obey the Master. Luke 17:10.

So, the next time someone says “works won’t save you.” Ask them what kinds of works are they talking about. Are they talking about “boastful” works? Works of the old law,? works of God, ? self righteous works? It makes a difference.

Your argument about works is the same argument that Roman Catholics use in a vain effort to "get around" the fact that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and instead teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works, works of God) and just not "those" works (self-righteous works, works of the law etc..) but that argument is bogus. For starters, we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Also, faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. I see that you "add" works to salvation through faith then try to justify that by calling these works the works of God. Very cunning! Any works that we "add" to salvation through faith could be boastful works because now those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation. Hence, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works.. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Let that sink in.

Now one cannot boast about faith because through faith, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). Christ receives 100% merit for our salvation. We cannot boast about repentance because repentance is a "change of mind" and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Christ still receives 100% merit. We cannot boast about confession either because confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation. Christ still receives 100% merit. One could boast in baptism because baptism then becomes meritorious towards receiving salvation after one has been saved through faith. Christ's finished work of redemption also becomes the IN-sufficient means of our salvation and man receives merit in part.

BTW works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) are literally works done in righteousness. These are works that Christians accomplish and not self-righteous works that unbelievers accomplish in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15,16)
In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. so "not saved by works" is not merely limited to specific works under the law of Moses but works in general.

Faith is a PRE-REQUISITE for repentance, confession and baptism.

How is faith a pre-requisite for repentance? Repentance actually "precedes" faith. (Acts 20:21)

 

[homwardbound]

John 6:29. We know “without faith it is impossible to please Him.” Hebrews 11:6. So, I know without a doubt that we are saved by WORKS OF GOD.

That is it! of God, by God for us all to get new life in his risen Life given us to love all in the same Mercy and Truth, that Son did and Father gives to us first. Then one, anyone in belief to this done work for them by God to them in risen Son for them do works, yet not of self anymore Phil 3:1-2
Thanks, I am seeing this, it is all God and none of me after belief, Father takes over with risen Son and trains me
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Wow, woe is me as in Isaiah 6:1-7

 

[homwardbound]

Let’s talk about “works” as they are talked about in the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8-9 “ For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Because of this verse, works have become a bad word in religious discussions. Most religious people believe ALL works are bad. Works are lumped into one category “bad.”
But in just the NEXT VERSE, Paul says we should walk in “GOOD WORKS.” So obviously there are SOME works that are NOT BAD.

We have works being described as “BOASTFUL” ” in Eph. 2:9 which are bad and we have “GOOD WORKS” that we are suppose to walk in. And in JOHN 6:29, we have WORKS OF GOD. One of these works is “Faith.” Verse 29. Obviously, works of God are good.

Another passage talks about “WORKS OF THE LAW” Galatians 2:16 and those are “bad” works, too, that won’t save us. And Titus 3:5 talks about “WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS which “WE” do, which would also fall into the “bad” category. That’s “FIVE” (5) different kinds of works. The point is, when someone says we are NOT SAVED BY WORKS, they really need to define which kind of works they mean. God does not lump ALL works into the “bad” category.

What they USUALLY mean is that we are not saved by ANY works. Surely that can’t be true because “faith” is a work and everyone believes that faith saves us. Baptism is a work of God, Colossians 2:12 and Peter says IT saves us. 1 Peter 3:21 (regardless of those who refuse to believe it). That’s what the BIBLE says.. AND the point of James 2 :14-26 is that MAN is justified by works as well as faith but NOT BY FAITH ALONE. (Verses 21, 22, 24)

So, are there SOME works that save us and SOME works which do NOT save us? YES! We have to agree that the works of God save us because Jesus defined faith as a work of God. John 6:29. We know “without faith it is impossible to please Him.” Hebrews 11:6. So, I know without a doubt that we are saved by WORKS OF GOD.

Obviously, we need to define what the WORKS OF GOD are. When the people asked Jesus the question about what are the works ( plural) of God, He did not correct their question as if it was in error. Would it surprise you to know that these people who asked the question were NOT BELIEVERS. In verse 30 they want to see a “sign”. So that THEY MIGHT BELIEVE HIM. So they don’t believe in Him when they asked him the question. In verse 36, He testifies about them, that they DO NOT BELIEVE. So how does Jesus. who can read minds and hearts, answer their question? What do they need to do? THEY NEED TO BELIEVE! would it have been LOGICAL for Jesus to tell them to “repent”,? no, faith must come first. Would you expect Him to tell them to be baptized? Never! Baptism is for believers. And faith is the FIRST thing they must do. Without faith, baptism is nothing more than getting wet! So He tells them that if they really want to work the works of God, they must have FAITH. I wouldn’t have expected Him to give any other answer. Faith comes first! Faith is a PRE-REQUISITE for repentance, confession and baptism. And we know there are more works of God than just faith because Paul calls baptism the “working of God” in Col. 2:12

Whatever God tells man he must do to be saved would be a work of God—not a work of man. That means “repentance” and “confession” are necessary works of God, too.

Would you deny that the works of God are works of righteousness? Surely, all of God’s works are righteous. What then are the WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS talked about in Titus 3:5 that are bad? The Key to those works is the pronoun “WE” They are SELF- righteous works which “WE” do. Perhaps these are the kinds of works that the People in Matthew 7 did. They said to the Lord, “and in thy name done many mighty works!” But He said He never knew them. They were working without His authority ( lawlessness).

There is another kind of “works of righteousness” that someone has called “practical” righteousness. If you want to call it something else that’s alright with me. That name is not in the Bible so I’m just using it to illustrate. But this is the example of Cornelius in Acts 10. Cornelius was NOT A CHRISTIAN but He is described by the Holy Spirit as “devout, one who feared God, gave alms GENEROUSLY to the people, and prayed to God always. He was living a good life through good deeds ( works). But he wasn’t saved. So these are al least 2 kinds of righteousness that will not save. You.

How do we “apply”. What we know about works? One way is to understand that not ALL works are condemned by Ephesians 2:8-9. The ONLY works that are condemned there are “BOASTFUL “ works. This verse is specifically used to try to eliminate “baptism.” However, Jesus Himself tells me that baptism is NOT one of these works because He said that when you have done what God ( your master) tells you to do, you CANNOT BOAST, because you have only done your “DUTY.” You have only done what God told you to do. Like 17, and you can’t boast about that. Can you “boast “ about believing? Is “.faith” a “boastful work”? Neither is repentance, confession nor baptism. Those are WORKS OF GOD that he has told us to do. It is our “duty”?to obey the Master. Luke 17:10.

So, the next time someone says “works won’t save you.” Ask them what kinds of works are they talking about. Are they talking about “boastful” works? Works of the old law,? works of God, ? self righteous works? It makes a difference.

I have no righteousness, none of my own ever. I have thought in past I had some as better than others I observed until Luke 18:9-14, and Matthew 18:24-35 got me to see me as having none of my own righteousness ever. Now, I respond to the done work of God for me in risen Son given me, love and mercy to all, as Said :Forgive them Father, they know not what they do, and neither do I Lord, I need your lead through me, thank you

Then God showed me I do have righteousness given me from God to represent this love and mercy from God given us all through Son, first.
Seeing, truth now as revealed to me from God for me and everyone else too

I have no righteousness of my own ever. I do have righteousness given me from God to me to reveal unconditional love of God to us all to respond to in thanksgiving and praise to God, for others to see too, willingly (Not having to do it) willingly do it and see new in love and mercy to all as Son did first for all by going to that cross willingly first without fighting back in flesh and blood, which is the way for all to see in the newness of life given us by Father for us all. Which the disciples expected Christ to fight back and he did not and they were so perplexed, not fathoming why he went willingly until after saw him risen (Acts 1), and still did not understand everything, yet got taught for forty days before Jesus left, then Father came here to earth on pentecost to speak through the disciples and did that, they did none of the speaking, yet the words of truth from God Father, poured out through their mouths to the crowd, that chose to believe God that day, then the house of Gentiles came into fruition too! God is good all the time as good is God all the time
Thank you for the post

 

[Beckworth]

Your argument about works is the same argument that Roman Catholics use in a vain effort to "get around" the fact that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and instead teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works, works of God) and just not "those" works (self-righteous works, works of the law etc..) but that argument is bogus. For starters, we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Also, faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. I see that you "add" works to salvation through faith then try to justify that by calling these works the works of God. Very cunning! Any works that we "add" to salvation through faith could be boastful works because now those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation. Hence, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works.. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Let that sink in.

Now one cannot boast about faith because through faith, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). Christ receives 100% merit for our salvation. We cannot boast about repentance because repentance is a "change of mind" and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Christ still receives 100% merit. We cannot boast about confession either because confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation. Christ still receives 100% merit. One could boast in baptism because baptism then becomes meritorious towards receiving salvation after one has been saved through faith. Christ's finished work of redemption also becomes the IN-sufficient means of our salvation and man receives merit in part.

BTW works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) are literally works done in righteousness. These are works that Christians accomplish and not self-righteous works that unbelievers accomplish in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15,16)
In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. so "not saved by works" is not merely limited to specific works under the law of Moses but works in general.

How is faith a pre-requisite for repentance? Repentance actually "precedes" faith. (Acts 20:21)

1) good works in Eph 2 was used to show that there are DIFFERENT kinds of works.
Nothing was said about them saving you. Please represent me ACCURATELY.
2) it is the Holy Spirit that calls faith a WORK and Work of God—not me. And thank you for the compliment ( cunning) but it is God’s word that gets the credit.
3) God never anywhere in the Bible Says that baptism is a “meritorious” act. Only you, and those who oppose baptism EVER say that. As much as you use that argument, you would think God could have thought of that Himself and mentioned it somewhere.
4) Quote: “No one can boast about faith because through faith we are trusting in another’s work.”
Colossians 2:12
“Buried with Him in BAPTISM, in which you also were raised with Him THROUGH FAITH (trusting) IN THE WORKING OF GOD.

NO ONE CAN BOAST ABOUT BAPTISM BECAUSE THROUGH FAITH WE ARE TRUSTING IN ANOTHER’S WORK.
I love that! You explained it perfectly. Thank you.
5) you are partially right about Titus 3. Those works of righteousness which “WE” have done cannot be separated from the old law. And we know that no one is saved by those woks so, I agree with you, ( I think) but since that is specific, it cannot apply to Works in general. That’s like using the (specific) physical operation of circumcision, that is no longer required, religiously, to teach that we no longer need any physical operations of any kind.
6) 2 Timothy 1:9 says we are not saved by “OUR” works, it does not say we are not saved by God’s works. You know that I am not contending we are saved by “OUR” works. I am contending we are saved by GOD’S works. Faith and baptism are clearly already designated as WORKS OF GOD. John 6:29 and Col. 2:12. Why do you refuse to believe repentance and confession are NOT works of God? THOSE are the works that save us, as God has clearly said in His word. Do I need to give you the scriptures again that say that? Acts 4:19, Romans 1O:10, and 1Peter 3:21.I know you already believe faith saves us so I left that one out.
7) Acts 20:21. Interesting that Paul makes a distinction between God and Jesus in this verse. It’s repentance toward GOD but it’s “faith” toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are not even directed together toward the same person.

 

[Beckworth]

1) good works in Eph 2 was used to show that there are DIFFERENT kinds of works.
Nothing was said about them saving you. Please represent me ACCURATELY.
2) it is the Holy Spirit that calls faith a WORK and Work of God—not me. And thank you for the compliment ( cunning) but it is God’s word that gets the credit.
3) God never anywhere in the Bible Says that baptism is a “meritorious” act. Only you, and those who oppose baptism EVER say that. As much as you use that argument, you would think God could have thought of that Himself and mentioned it somewhere.
4) Quote: “No one can boast about faith because through faith we are trusting in another’s work.”
Colossians 2:12
“Buried with Him in BAPTISM, in which you also were raised with Him THROUGH FAITH (trusting) IN THE WORKING OF GOD.

NO ONE CAN BOAST ABOUT BAPTISM BECAUSE THROUGH FAITH WE ARE TRUSTING IN ANOTHER’S WORK.
I love that! You explained it perfectly. Thank you.
5) you are partially right about Titus 3. Those works of righteousness which “WE” have done cannot be separated from the old law. And we know that no one is saved by those woks so, I agree with you, ( I think) but since that is specific, it cannot apply to Works in general. That’s like using the (specific) physical operation of circumcision, that is no longer required, religiously, to teach that we no longer need any physical operations of any kind.
6) 2 Timothy 1:9 says we are not saved by “OUR” works, it does not say we are not saved by God’s works. You know that I am not contending we are saved by “OUR” works. I am contending we are saved by GOD’S works. Faith and baptism are clearly already designated as WORKS OF GOD. John 6:29 and Col. 2:12. Why do you refuse to believe repentance and confession are NOT works of God? THOSE are the works that save us, as God has clearly said in His word. Do I need to give you the scriptures again that say that? Acts 4:19, Romans 1O:10, and 1Peter 3:21.I know you already believe faith saves us so I left that one out.
7) Acts 20:21. Interesting that Paul makes a distinction between God and Jesus in this verse. It’s repentance toward GOD but it’s “faith” toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are not even directed together toward the same person.

Correction: it’s Acts 3: 19 not Acts 4;19. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[mailmandan]

1) good works in Eph 2 was used to show that there are DIFFERENT kinds of works. Nothing was said about them saving you.

You already said elsewhere that James 2:24 literally says we are saved by works, based on your misinterpretation of James 2:24. The works that James mention in James 2:15-16 are good works.

And yes, we SHOW faith by our works, but the scriptures specifically say THREE TIMES, MAN is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS. That is word for word. Verse 24. I see you did not comment on that. It literally says we are SAVED BY WORKS. .

I refuted your error in post #226.

Please represent me ACCURATELY.

I have, and you have apparently contradicted yourself.

2) it is the Holy Spirit that calls faith a WORK and Work of God—not me. And thank you for the compliment ( cunning) but it is God’s word that gets the credit.

In John 6:29, Jesus said - "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So, by Jesus' play on words here, He was not implying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Also, through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption - Romans 3:24-28). There is a difference between faith AND works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

3) God never anywhere in the Bible Says that baptism is a “meritorious” act. Only you, and those who oppose baptism EVER say that. As much as you use that argument, you would think God could have thought of that Himself and mentioned it somewhere.

If water baptism stands between us and salvation, then, it is a meritorious act because it then becomes the means of obtaining salvation, along with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Anything that you "add" to salvation through faith, you add to the cross.

4) Quote: “No one can boast about faith because through faith we are trusting in another’s work.”

Amen!

Colossians 2:12 “Buried with Him in BAPTISM, in which you also were raised with Him THROUGH FAITH (trusting) IN THE WORKING OF GOD.

Finish the verse - ..through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1).
*Hermeneutics.

NO ONE CAN BOAST ABOUT BAPTISM BECAUSE THROUGH FAITH WE ARE TRUSTING IN ANOTHER’S WORK.
I love that! You explained it perfectly. Thank you.

You deliberately misquoted me. Please be honest and no deceit. *I said - "Now one cannot boast about faith because through faith, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption)." Now one could boast about baptism because that would "add" a work to salvation through faith, not works.

5) you are partially right about Titus 3. Those works of righteousness which “WE” have done cannot be separated from the old law. And we know that no one is saved by those works so, I agree with you, (I think) but since that is specific, it cannot apply to works in general.

Any works done in righteousness would be considered good works, so that covers good works in general.

That’s like using the (specific) physical operation of circumcision, that is no longer required, religiously, to teach that we no longer need any physical operations of any kind.

Speaking of circumcision, Colossians 2:12 in context shows that baptism is presented as the New Testament counterpart of circumcision in the Old Testament. They are presented in a careful parallel to each other. The one who is "in Christ" is circumcised with a circumcision made "without hands" and the parallel usage of circumcision and baptism demonstrates that we understand the "baptism" to be made "without hands" also. Romans 2:28-29 shows clearly that it is not physical circumcision "made with hands" but *spiritual circumcision* which makes one truly a Jew and one of Abraham's children.

CONTINUED..

 

[mailmandan]

6) Beckworth said: 2 Timothy 1:9 says we are not saved by “OUR” works, it does not say we are not saved by God’s works. You know that I am not contending we are saved by “OUR” works. I am contending we are saved by GOD’S works.

Show me where the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith and God's works? Just because good works for us to do originated with God (Ephesians 2:10) does not mean these works are excluded as being OUR works when we accomplish them. God does not accomplish good works for us, we did. God works in Christians, yet Christians are not passive in performing good works. We will be judged according to our works to determine rewards and loss of rewards. (1 Corinthians 3:11-14) Works we did, and not works God did for us.

Faith and baptism are clearly already designated as WORKS OF GOD. John 6:29 and Col. 2:12.

So, why didn't Jesus mention baptism in John 6:29? The work of God in Colossians 2:12 is raising Jesus from the dead. You need to practice more exegesis, and less eisegesis.

Why do you refuse to believe repentance and confession are NOT works of God? THOSE are the works that save us, as God has clearly said in His word. Do I need to give you the scriptures again that say that?

You remind me of the Jews in John 6:28, who take a legalistic approach to salvation and asked, what shall we do that we might work the works of God? Jesus corrected them in verse 29.

Acts 4:19

, Romans 1O:10, and 1Peter 3:21.I know you already believe faith saves us so I left that one out.

In regard to Romans 10:10, the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8) Notice the reverse order from verse 9-10 - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Confession is a confirmation of faith by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3) which is why we will be saved if we confess and is not a work for salvation after one believes unto righteousness, as you would suppose. In 1 Peter 3:21, read the rest of the verse - not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Reading only part of a verse and building doctrine on that leads to error.

Acts 20:21. Interesting that Paul makes a distinction between God and Jesus in this verse. It’s repentance toward GOD but it’s “faith” toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are not even directed together toward the same person.

So, you don't believe that Jesus is God? (John 1:1-14) So, repentance toward God has nothing to do with Jesus according to you? You still have not acknowledged that repentance "precedes" faith. In Acts 26:18, we read - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. Did you see that? What happened to baptism? Repentance happens when one turns, as we see in Acts 3:19 - Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord. There is no repentance toward God apart from the new direction of this change of mind, namely, faith in Jesus Christ. (Also see Acts 15:7-9)

 

[tablet123]

Let’s talk about “works” as they are talked about in the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8-9 “ For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Because of this verse, works have become a bad word in religious discussions. Most religious people believe ALL works are bad. Works are lumped into one category “bad.”
But in just the NEXT VERSE, Paul says we should walk in “GOOD WORKS.” So obviously there are SOME works that are NOT BAD.

We have works being described as “BOASTFUL” ” in Eph. 2:9 which are bad and we have “GOOD WORKS” that we are suppose to walk in. And in JOHN 6:29, we have WORKS OF GOD. One of these works is “Faith.” Verse 29. Obviously, works of God are good.

Another passage talks about “WORKS OF THE LAW” Galatians 2:16 and those are “bad” works, too, that won’t save us. And Titus 3:5 talks about “WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS which “WE” do, which would also fall into the “bad” category. That’s “FIVE” (5) different kinds of works. The point is, when someone says we are NOT SAVED BY WORKS, they really need to define which kind of works they mean. God does not lump ALL works into the “bad” category.

What they USUALLY mean is that we are not saved by ANY works. Surely that can’t be true because “faith” is a work and everyone believes that faith saves us. Baptism is a work of God, Colossians 2:12 and Peter says IT saves us. 1 Peter 3:21 (regardless of those who refuse to believe it). That’s what the BIBLE says.. AND the point of James 2 :14-26 is that MAN is justified by works as well as faith but NOT BY FAITH ALONE. (Verses 21, 22, 24)

So, are there SOME works that save us and SOME works which do NOT save us? YES! We have to agree that the works of God save us because Jesus defined faith as a work of God. John 6:29. We know “without faith it is impossible to please Him.” Hebrews 11:6. So, I know without a doubt that we are saved by WORKS OF GOD.

Obviously, we need to define what the WORKS OF GOD are. When the people asked Jesus the question about what are the works ( plural) of God, He did not correct their question as if it was in error. Would it surprise you to know that these people who asked the question were NOT BELIEVERS. In verse 30 they want to see a “sign”. So that THEY MIGHT BELIEVE HIM. So they don’t believe in Him when they asked him the question. In verse 36, He testifies about them, that they DO NOT BELIEVE. So how does Jesus. who can read minds and hearts, answer their question? What do they need to do? THEY NEED TO BELIEVE! would it have been LOGICAL for Jesus to tell them to “repent”,? no, faith must come first. Would you expect Him to tell them to be baptized? Never! Baptism is for believers. And faith is the FIRST thing they must do. Without faith, baptism is nothing more than getting wet! So He tells them that if they really want to work the works of God, they must have FAITH. I wouldn’t have expected Him to give any other answer. Faith comes first! Faith is a PRE-REQUISITE for repentance, confession and baptism. And we know there are more works of God than just faith because Paul calls baptism the “working of God” in Col. 2:12

Whatever God tells man he must do to be saved would be a work of God—not a work of man. That means “repentance” and “confession” are necessary works of God, too.

Would you deny that the works of God are works of righteousness? Surely, all of God’s works are righteous. What then are the WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS talked about in Titus 3:5 that are bad? The Key to those works is the pronoun “WE” They are SELF- righteous works which “WE” do. Perhaps these are the kinds of works that the People in Matthew 7 did. They said to the Lord, “and in thy name done many mighty works!” But He said He never knew them. They were working without His authority ( lawlessness).

There is another kind of “works of righteousness” that someone has called “practical” righteousness. If you want to call it something else that’s alright with me. That name is not in the Bible so I’m just using it to illustrate. But this is the example of Cornelius in Acts 10. Cornelius was NOT A CHRISTIAN but He is described by the Holy Spirit as “devout, one who feared God, gave alms GENEROUSLY to the people, and prayed to God always. He was living a good life through good deeds ( works). But he wasn’t saved. So these are al least 2 kinds of righteousness that will not save. You.

How do we “apply”. What we know about works? One way is to understand that not ALL works are condemned by Ephesians 2:8-9. The ONLY works that are condemned there are “BOASTFUL “ works. This verse is specifically used to try to eliminate “baptism.” However, Jesus Himself tells me that baptism is NOT one of these works because He said that when you have done what God ( your master) tells you to do, you CANNOT BOAST, because you have only done your “DUTY.” You have only done what God told you to do. Like 17, and you can’t boast about that. Can you “boast “ about believing? Is “.faith” a “boastful work”? Neither is repentance, confession nor baptism. Those are WORKS OF GOD that he has told us to do. It is our “duty”?to obey the Master. Luke 17:10.

So, the next time someone says “works won’t save you.” Ask them what kinds of works are they talking about. Are they talking about “boastful” works? Works of the old law,? works of God, ? self righteous works? It makes a difference.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Love is greater than faith, and faith works by love.

No love then no faith for true faith has the right perspective of God's kingdom that it is love and portrays love led by the Spirit.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul said without charity, love in action, he is nothing.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James said without charity their faith is dead and by works a person is justified, and not by faith only.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said without charity the love of God does not well in them.

So let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed, works, and in truth.

For love is only valid if it is done in works which is why James said a person is justified by works, love, and not faith alone.

Paul and James say the same thing which is when a person receives the Spirit that charity is greater than faith.

Since charity is greater than faith, and faith works by love, and love is only valid if done in works then we have to have works of love to be saved.

For if we do not have works of love then our faith is not valid.

We are saved by faith, and not by works, when we first confess Christ for that is all we can do for we are in the flesh because we make our choice to confess Christ when we are in the flesh.

But when we receive the Spirit we have to have works of love led by the Spirit to have faith active in our life.

They do not pick up on Paul saying we have to have works of love and try to carry not saved by works throughout their walk with Christ.

 

[homwardbound]

Correction: it’s Acts 3: 19 not Acts 4;19. Sorry for the confusion.

Thank you, being clear to me from God working through you, not you. I hear you

 

[Soyeong]

Let’s talk about “works” as they are talked about in the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8-9 “ For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Because of this verse, works have become a bad word in religious discussions. Most religious people believe ALL works are bad. Works are lumped into one category “bad.”
But in just the NEXT VERSE, Paul says we should walk in “GOOD WORKS.” So obviously there are SOME works that are NOT BAD.

We have works being described as “BOASTFUL” ” in Eph. 2:9 which are bad and we have “GOOD WORKS” that we are suppose to walk in. And in JOHN 6:29, we have WORKS OF GOD. One of these works is “Faith.” Verse 29. Obviously, works of God are good.

Another passage talks about “WORKS OF THE LAW” Galatians 2:16 and those are “bad” works, too, that won’t save us. And Titus 3:5 talks about “WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS which “WE” do, which would also fall into the “bad” category. That’s “FIVE” (5) different kinds of works. The point is, when someone says we are NOT SAVED BY WORKS, they really need to define which kind of works they mean. God does not lump ALL works into the “bad” category.

What they USUALLY mean is that we are not saved by ANY works. Surely that can’t be true because “faith” is a work and everyone believes that faith saves us. Baptism is a work of God, Colossians 2:12 and Peter says IT saves us. 1 Peter 3:21 (regardless of those who refuse to believe it). That’s what the BIBLE says.. AND the point of James 2 :14-26 is that MAN is justified by works as well as faith but NOT BY FAITH ALONE. (Verses 21, 22, 24)

So, are there SOME works that save us and SOME works which do NOT save us? YES! We have to agree that the works of God save us because Jesus defined faith as a work of God. John 6:29. We know “without faith it is impossible to please Him.” Hebrews 11:6. So, I know without a doubt that we are saved by WORKS OF GOD.

Obviously, we need to define what the WORKS OF GOD are. When the people asked Jesus the question about what are the works ( plural) of God, He did not correct their question as if it was in error. Would it surprise you to know that these people who asked the question were NOT BELIEVERS. In verse 30 they want to see a “sign”. So that THEY MIGHT BELIEVE HIM. So they don’t believe in Him when they asked him the question. In verse 36, He testifies about them, that they DO NOT BELIEVE. So how does Jesus. who can read minds and hearts, answer their question? What do they need to do? THEY NEED TO BELIEVE! would it have been LOGICAL for Jesus to tell them to “repent”,? no, faith must come first. Would you expect Him to tell them to be baptized? Never! Baptism is for believers. And faith is the FIRST thing they must do. Without faith, baptism is nothing more than getting wet! So He tells them that if they really want to work the works of God, they must have FAITH. I wouldn’t have expected Him to give any other answer. Faith comes first! Faith is a PRE-REQUISITE for repentance, confession and baptism. And we know there are more works of God than just faith because Paul calls baptism the “working of God” in Col. 2:12

Whatever God tells man he must do to be saved would be a work of God—not a work of man. That means “repentance” and “confession” are necessary works of God, too.

Would you deny that the works of God are works of righteousness? Surely, all of God’s works are righteous. What then are the WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS talked about in Titus 3:5 that are bad? The Key to those works is the pronoun “WE” They are SELF- righteous works which “WE” do. Perhaps these are the kinds of works that the People in Matthew 7 did. They said to the Lord, “and in thy name done many mighty works!” But He said He never knew them. They were working without His authority ( lawlessness).

There is another kind of “works of righteousness” that someone has called “practical” righteousness. If you want to call it something else that’s alright with me. That name is not in the Bible so I’m just using it to illustrate. But this is the example of Cornelius in Acts 10. Cornelius was NOT A CHRISTIAN but He is described by the Holy Spirit as “devout, one who feared God, gave alms GENEROUSLY to the people, and prayed to God always. He was living a good life through good deeds ( works). But he wasn’t saved. So these are al least 2 kinds of righteousness that will not save. You.

How do we “apply”. What we know about works? One way is to understand that not ALL works are condemned by Ephesians 2:8-9. The ONLY works that are condemned there are “BOASTFUL “ works. This verse is specifically used to try to eliminate “baptism.” However, Jesus Himself tells me that baptism is NOT one of these works because He said that when you have done what God ( your master) tells you to do, you CANNOT BOAST, because you have only done your “DUTY.” You have only done what God told you to do. Like 17, and you can’t boast about that. Can you “boast “ about believing? Is “.faith” a “boastful work”? Neither is repentance, confession nor baptism. Those are WORKS OF GOD that he has told us to do. It is our “duty”?to obey the Master. Luke 17:10.

So, the next time someone says “works won’t save you.” Ask them what kinds of works are they talking about. Are they talking about “boastful” works? Works of the old law,? works of God, ? self righteous works? It makes a difference.

The issue is not so much in regard to those works being good or bad as it is in regard to having good or bad motivations for doing them and the Bible can speak against doing works with bad motivations without speaking against being required to do them with correct motivations. For example, the fact that we can't earn our salvation as the result of our works does not mean that our salvation does not require us to be doers of them.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is desribed as being trained by grace in order to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation, which requires our participation.

in Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creation in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously making us into a doer of good works nevertheless a central part of His gift of salvation.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.